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Mr. BRIGGS. What else is there in this bill that gives you an added benefit you do not have in the existing law?

Mr. DRAPER. That about covers it.

Mr. BRIGGS. Are you losing anything you now have under existing law, by enactment of legislation such as this, or would you lose anything?

Mr. DRAPER. There is a question there as to whether or not we might not lose a bit of a fraction that is given to us by section 2 of the Harter Act.

Mr. ABERNETHY. Read that again.

Mr. DRAPER. Section 2 of the Harter Act:

That it shall not be lawful for any vessel trasporting merchandise or property from or between ports of the United States of America and foreign ports, her owner master, agent, or manager, to insert in any bill of lading or shipping document any covenant or agreement whereby the obligations of the owner or owners of said vessel to exercise due diligence properly equip, man, provision, and outfit said vessel, and to make said vessel seaworthy and capable of performing her intended voyage, or whereby obligations of the master, officers, agents, or servants to carefully handle and stow her cargo and to care for and properly deliver same, shall in any wise be lessened, weakened, or avoided.

But when you read that in connection with section 1, there is doubt as to whether or not that section would be effective at all because section 1 of the Harter Act makes it specifically unlawful "for the manager, agent, master, or owner of any vessel transporting merchandise or property from or between ports of the United States and foreign ports to insert in any bill of lading or shipping document any clause, covenant, or agreement whereby it, he, or they shall be relieved from liability for loss or damage arising from negligence," and so forth.

In other words, that is a specific provision preventing it.

Mr. ABERNETHY. Turn over in this act to where it relieves them of negligence but that act says they can not relieve themselves of it. Mr. DRAPER. If I may explain the difference, section 1 prohibits the inclusion of any of these things in a bill of lading. That applies to issuing a bill of lading with any of these things in it, whereas section 2 relates to the actual transportation of the goods and not to the issuance of a bill of lading.

Mr. ABERNETHY. Let me see that act.

Mr. DRAPER. Yes.

Mr. BRAND. If I read this White bill correctly, it seems to permit any kind of bill of lading that the carrier and the shipper can agree on, if they want to avoid this law.

Mr. DRAPER. I think that probably is true.

Mr. BRAND. Would the Harter Act still step in and make certain requirements?

Mr. DRAPER. I should think it would. Our advisers say it would be the case and still be operative.

Mr. BRAND. Who are your legal department?

Mr. DRAPER. Our legal committee is composed of Charles J. Faulkner, of Chicago, general counsel of Armour & Co. He is chairman of it. Also Mr. Henry Veeder, general counsel of Swift & Co., of Chicago; Mr. Thomas Creigh, general counsel of the Cudahy Packing Co., of Chicago.

Mr. ABERNETHY. It is 10 minutes to 12, when we will have to adjourn, and I will insist that this witness appear here for cross-examina

tion. I have not had a chance up to date, according to the order in the committee, to ask a question, and according to our rules we go by seniority, which is all right. I am not objecting to the length of time taken in discussion of this bill in cross-examination. I want every member to get at the whole thing. Now, seriously, I think these hearings should be adjourned until we convene the full committee and we can have everybody interested in this matter before It is piecemeal now.

us.

STATEMENT OF J. H. BEEK, CHICAGO, ILL.,

REPRESENTING

THE NATIONAL INDUSTRIAL TRAFFIC LEAGUE

Mr. BEEK. I am perfectly willing to stay here and will be here and available at any time, but it so happens that I have an argument before the Interstate Commerce Commission to-morrow morning at 10 o'clock. That has been set for long before these committee hearings were set, and there will be in a day or so some other hearings about the motor bus bill, and Chairman Parker expects me to participate in, and at the same time I can not go there and be here, and I can not be here to-morrow morning, although I am in the city.

Mr. ABERNETHY. When did Mr. Haight say he would be back? Mr. BEEK. In April, about the 20th, on a Friday. I am perfectly willing to go along.

Mr. SLOAN. As far as that is concerned we have plenty of material to work on without you. When Mr. Briggs gets through with Mr. Draper, Mr. Abernethy shall have all the time he wants with him and I may ask some questions myself, and then we have Mr. Myrick.

Mr. ABERNETHY. We should have a quorum when we examine these witnesses. No one will have time to read the printed hearings and get the details. They should be present. I am going to object to any further hearing unless you have a quorum. You may as well get a quorum or you will not have any hearings.

Mr. SLOAN. Let me make this suggestion. We are holding hearings but a great deal of this matter could be stated in the form of briefs, in which case we would be denied the opportunity of cross-examination. Some of these witnesses are here and they may not be here again. Personally, I would like to ask them some questions, irrespective of the action this committee takes or whether it takes any action. I would like to have their viewpoint.

Mr. ABERNETHY. You may as well understand I am going to demand from now on all through these hearings a quorum. We should not go into this matter, involving as if does all the shippers of the country, with this one witness, without a quorum. We might as well select a time when we can all be here and arrange for hearing the witnesses, but we have only one lawyer from New York, who has gone back, and a representative of the chamber of commerce, besides this witness. We sat here one day until 2.30 o'clock to accommodate Mr. Haight. I am just as agreeable as anybody and try to be agreeable, but I have some definite views on this thing, and for one I do not propose that this legislation shall be hurried through this session of Congress. I am willing to take all the time necessary, one month or two months to go into this matter fully, and I for one member of the committee serve notice on everybody that from now on we must have a quorum and have everybody interested in this matter here.

I want to hear not only the underwriters, the shipowners, the Shipping Board, but I want the people interested all over the country, to know what this is all about before we go ahead here. This witness here to-day wants the absolute repeal of the Harter Act, as I read section 1, compared with what we have. It is an absolute repeal.

Mr. SLOAN. Do you know what your chairman thinks of this whole thing? I think we have had more information about the real vitals of this bill in this hour and a half than all the other sittings. Mr. ABERNETHY. Who has had?

Mr. SLOAN. You and Mr. Briggs and Mr. Brand and myself. Mr. ABERNETHY. Mr. Brand, Mr. Briggs, and you and myself are here.

Mr. SLOAN. I do not want this thing protracted. Do you raise the objection?

Mr. ABERNETHY. I have never raised the point.

Mr. SLOAN. I wanted to get the shippers' views on this. I have gotten a clearer conception of it in this hour and a half than from all the rest of the people.

Mr. ABERNETHY. So have I.

Mr. SLOAN. It does occur to me that if it would not interfere with the convenience of the members too much we could go on and take this testimony. I have not the least idea that anything will be done inside of months and months in this because it is an important piece of proposed legislation.

Mr. ABERNETHY. If I can have the assurances of the majority members of this committee that no precipitate saction will be taken in this matter and that we will have full time and opportunity to go into it, I am willing to drag along like this, but I have seen so much legislation in Congress where they just come in with it and folks who have well-defined views never get an opportunity to present their views in the committee, but if I can have the asurance of the majority members of this committee that we will not take any precipitate action, I am willing to drag along and accommodate these witnesses ad infinitum.

Mr. DRAPER. That little book you have there we prepared and it was prepared on the basis of the original Hague rules that came over here in 1921.

Mr. ABERNETHY. What I have here is the Harter Act?

Mr. DRAPER. I will also say to Mr. Abernethy, and also the chairman, that as far as appointments and engagements are concerned, as far as I am concerned, I am at the disposal of the committee at any time now or in the future, as long as they will meet with me as this is one of the most important things we have before this industry at this particular time.

Mr. ABERNETHY. In connection with this gentleman's testimony, I will put in section 1 of the Harter Act.

Mr. BRIGGS. Put in the whole act.

Mr. SLOAN. If there is no objection it is so ordered.

(The act referred to is as follows:)

AN ACT Relating to navigation of vessels, bills of lading, and to certain obligations, duties, and rights in connection with the carriage of property

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That it shall not be lawful for the manager, agent, master, or owner of any vessel transporting merchandise or property

from or between ports of the United States and foreign ports to insert in any bill of lading or shipping document any clause, covenant, or agreement whereby it, he, or they shall be relieved from liability for loss or damage arising from negligence, fault, or failure in proper loading, stowage, custody, care, or proper delivery of any and all lawful merchandise or property committed to its or their charge. Any and all words or clauses of such import inserted in bills of lading or shipping receipts shall be null and void and of no effect.

SEC. 2. That it shall not be lawful for any vessel transporting merchandise or property from or between ports of the United States of America and foreign ports, her owner, master, agent, or manager, to insert in any bill of lading or shipping document any covenant or agreement whereby the obligations of the owner or owners of said vessel to exercise due diligence properly equip, man, provision, and outfit said vessel, and to make said vessel seaworthy and capable of performing her intended voyage, or whereby the obligations of the master, officers, agents, or servants to carefully handle and stow her cargo and to care for and properly deliver same, shall in any wise be lessened, weakened, or avoided. SEC. 3. That if the owner of any vessel transporting merchandise or property to or from any port in the United States of America shall exercise due diligence to make the said vessel in all respects seaworthy and properly manned, equipped, and supplied, neither the vessel, her owner or owners, agent, or charterers shall become or be held responsible for damage or loss resulting from faults or errors in navigation or in the management of said vessel nor shall the vessel, her owner or owners, charterers, agent, or master be held liable for losses arising from dangers of the sea or other navigable waters, acts of God, or public enemies, or the inherent defect, quality, or vice of the thing carried, or from insufficiency of package, or seizure under legal process, or for loss resulting from any act or omission of the shipper or owner of the goods, his agent or representative, or from saving or attempting to save life or property at sea, or from any deviation in rendering such service.

SEC. 4. That it shall be the duty of the owner or owners, masters, or agent of any vessel transporting merchandise or property from or between ports of the United States and foreign ports to issue to shippers of any lawful merchandise a bill of lading, or shipping document, stating, among other things, the marks necessary for identification, number of packages, or quantity, stating whether it be carrier's or shipper's weight, and apparent order or condition of such merchandise or property delivered to and received by the owner, master, or agent of the vessel for transportation, and such document shall be prima facie evidence of the receipt of the merchandise therein described.

SEC. 5. That for a violation of any of the provisions of this act the agent, owner, or master of the vessel guilty of such violation, and who refuses to issue on demand the bill of lading herein provided for, shall be liable to a fine not exceeding two thousand dollars. The amount of the fine and costs for such violation shall be a lien upon the vessel, whose agent, owner, or master is guilty of such violation, and such vessel may be libeled therefor in any district court of the United States within whose jurisdiction the vessel may be found. One-half of such penalty shall go to the party injured by such violation and the remainder to the Government of the United States.

SEC. 6. That this act shall not be held to modify or repeal sections forty-two hundred and eighty-one, forty-two hundred and eighty-two, and forty-two hundred and eighty-three of the Revised Statutes of the United States, or any other statute defining the liability of vessels, their owners, or representatives. SEC. 7. Sections one and four of this act shall not apply to the transportation of live animals.

SEC. 8. That this act shall take effect from and after the first day of July, eighteen hundred and ninety-three.

Approved, February 13, 1893.

Mr. BRIGGS. Is it your understanding now that this bill with these amendments was submitted to your legal department that you referred to?

Mr. DRAPER. It was submitted to them, I believe.

Mr. BRIGGS. Were these amendments that you propose here submitted to that legal committee?

Mr. DRAPER. Yes; to the committee and also to our traffic committee, which is composed of probably the best traffic men in the

United States; also to the committee on foreign relations, which is composed of the best export men that I know of anywhere.

Mr. BRIGGS. Were these amendments that you suggested here approved by the parties you refer to?

Mr. DRAPER. Yes.

Mr. BRIGGS. Do they include shippers?

Mr. DRAPER. They are all shippers. They are the actual fellows who ship the freight, the actual men who do the shipping.

Mr. ABERNETHY. Have you given the names of those whom you represent?

Mr. DRAPER. No, sir.

Mr. ABERNETHY. Will you give a list for the benefit of the record? Mr. DRAPER. Yes.

Mr. BRIGGS. And submit a list of the different parties you referred to in the special committees that you mentioned.

Mr. DRAPER. Yes. These members of these committees are from the so-called larger packing companies and the smaller packing companies located all over the country.

INSTITUTE OF AMERICAN MEAT PACKERS

Committee on foreign relations and trade: Charles E. Herrick, chairman, Brennan Packing Co., Chicago, IH.; G. A. Billings, Cudahy Bros. Co., Cudahy, Wis.; James G. Cownie, Jacob Dold Packing Co., Buffalo, N. Y.; A. W. Cushman, Hygrade Food Products Corporation, Chicago, Ill.; R. H. Daigneau, Geo. A. Hormel & Co., Austin, Minn.; T. Henry Foster, John Morrell & Co., Ottumwa, Iowa; P. J. Hill, Armour & Co., Chicago, Ill.; F. A. Hunter, East Side Packing Co., East St. Louis, Ill.; Robert Johnson, Oscar Mayer & Co. (Inc.), Madison, Wis.; Robert Mair, Swift & Co., Chicago, Ill.; George Marples, Cudahy Packing Co., Chicago, Ill.; John W. Rath, Rath Packing Co., Waterloo, Iowa; John Roberts, Miller & Hart, Chicago, Ill.; M. Rosenbach, Wilson & Co., Chicago, Ill.; W. R. Sinclair, Kingan & Co., Indianapolis, Ind.

Committee on traffic: George A. Blair, chairman, Wilson & Co., Chicago, Ill.; Harry W. Davis, John Mirrell & Co., Ottumwa, Iowa; F. W. Ellis, Armour & Co., Chicago, Ill.; Howard C. Greer, Institute of American Meat Packers, Chicago, Ill.; S. W. Hirschberg, St. Louis Independent Packing Co., St. Louis, Mo.; Joseph T. Madden, Cudahy Bros. Co., Cudahy Wis.; Charles E. Mallory, Kingan & Co., Indianapolis, Ind.; E. J. Norris, Hygrade Food Products Corpoation, Chicago, Ill.; O. W. O'Berg, Geo. A. Hormel & Co., Austin, Minn.; Richard O'Hara, Swift & Co., Chicago, Ill.; C. G. Redlick, Jacob Dold Packing Co., Buffalo, N. Y.; J. W. Robb, Cudahy Packing Co., Chicago, Ill.; G. E. Saddy, Oscar Mayer & Co. (Inc.), Madison, Wis.; L. A. Weaver, Roberts & Oake (Inc.), Chicago, Ill.; Horace E. Wennagel, Wm. Schluderberg-T. J. Kurdle Co., Baltimore, Md.

MEMBERS

Abraham Brothers Packing Co., Memphis, Tenn.

Agar Packing & Provision Co., 4057 South Union Avenue, Chicago, Ill.
Alamo Dressed Beef Co., San Antonio, Tex.

Albany Packing Co. (Inc.), West Albany, N. Y.

J. H. Allison & Co., Middle Street, Chattanooga, Tenn.

American Packing Co., 3842 Garfield Avenue, St. Louis, Mo.

American Packing & Provision Co., Ogden, Utah.

Arabi Packing Co. (Inc.), post-office box No. 2, Arabi, La.

Arbogast & Bastian Co. (Inc.), 1 Hamilton Street, Allentown, Pa.
Arizona Packing Co., Temple Road, Phoenix, Ariz.

Armour & Co., Union Stock Yards, Chicago, Ill.

Arnold Bros. (Inc.), 660 West Randolph Street, Chicago, Ill.
N. Auth Provision Co., 623 D Street, SW., Washington, D. C.
Balentine Packing Co., 208 East Court Street, Greenville, S. Č.
Banfield Bros. Co., Tulsa, Okla.

Batchelder & Snyder Co., 55 Blackstone Street, Boston, Mass.

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