noble lord. Here he stopped in expectation of his rising, upon which

Lord North said, the 300 ton being applied to the use of the navy rendered it impossible to be stated in the present account, as all charges made here were entirely for the land service: then, say gentlemen, we have no account whatever of this article. I answer, you have: but it is involved in the naval estimate, for in that there is charged 47. a man per month, out of which there are 4s. paid over to the Ordnance board, the amount of which um goes to the discharge of the debt incurred by the navy in that article. His ordship observed, he stated facts as they ppeared to him, but as it was a matter hat did not immediately concern him, if e was mistaken in any point, he trusted he gentlemen behind him would set him ight.

Mr. Burke rose again, and in the most jointed language attacked the noble lord or declaring it was a matter in which he was not immediately concerned. What! aid he, is it not the business of the first ord of the Treasury to see that money matters of such consequence as these are, hould be stated fairly and justly, previous o their being brought before the House? Was it not his business to have inquired nto this transaction with the East India Company? Certainly it was; and I am convinced too, so important a transaction Could never be done without his managenent and consent. In which case, I say, he has cheated the public [here was a oud cry of Order]: he insisted he was not unparliamentary in what he said, for by making the Company supply government with salt-petre, at 531. a ton, when they could get for the same by public sale 118. a ton, is taking from the Company, at least 601. in every ton, which in the end must fall on the public. The Company are at many and very heavy expences, and if they are deprived of the means of supporting them, the public must most sensibly feel the loss, and must certainly afford the Company that protection they have often done. For these reasons, I say it is a tax on the people, and a tax of a most grievous nature, nor do I think the directors of the Company are less criminal than the noble lord, for they have given up the interests of their constituents, and betrayed the trust reposed in them; they should have consulted them before they had assented to a matter pregnant with so much mischief. I look on the Company

to be one of the chief pillars of the nation; and therefore any thing that may in its consequences affect it, must most certainly affect the empire at large.

Mr. Adam confirmed what lord North had said in regard to the usage of the navy in the article of powder; he said that during the war before the Revolution, and ever since that period, it had always been stated by itself, independent of the Ordnance estimates. He traced the custom and cause of allotting 4s. from the pay of every seaman per month, to the furnishing of naval stores.

After some further conversation, it was moved, that the chairman should leave the chair and report progress; upon which the Committee divided: Yeas 60; Noes 113. The several Resolutions were then agreed to.

February 4. On the motion for bringing up the report of the Committee,

Sir P. J. Clerke objected to its being received, as there were three particular heads in the Ordnance estimates, which had not been fairly investigated; these were the article of salt-petre, the transport service, and the sum for fortifications; the first of these articles appeared clearly to have a fraud in it, and the others had not been explained.

Mr. Hussey stated to the House, that the usual method of paying the tradesmen belonging to the Ordnance office, was by debentures; that these debentures, instead of bearing a premium, were in such disrepute, that they were frequently sold from 25 to 28 per cent. discount, which undoubtedly must be a great loss to the trader, and be the means of his having an enormous price for his contract to enable him to give such credit. Some accounts were paid in part by imprest hills, which bear only a discount of 3 per cent. and the rest by debentures, therefore, he wished to know whether the bills settled in that manner, were promiscuous ones, or whether they were only done for favourites.

Mr. Kenrick informed the hon. member, that the bills were all paid alike, according to their several dates, without any favour or affection; that respecting the business of the contract for the salt-petre, the ordnance had incurred a debt to the India Company; and had been refused any more salt-petre, unless the former debt was paid, which it was not in their power to do; therefore they had applied elsewhere, and had accepted of Mr. Townson's proposals.

Mr. J. Townshend requested leave to say a few words relative to the contract made by the board of Ordnance with Mr. Townson. He had authority to aver, that the contract had been made wholly without the knowledge of the master-general of the Ordnance; nay as soon as it had come to that noble lord's ears, that a contract was in agitation, which would not bear the closest inspection, he immediately sent directions to the board to break off the treaty; but it was too late, the business had been already completed. He trusted that the House would not think it necessary for him to apologize for having spoken on the subject; it was natural for him to wish to rescue from obliquity the name of a noble lord, to whom he was so nearly related [his father, lord Townshend] a man who had served his country with as clean hands, and as strict integrity, as any man in the nation.

Mr. Kenrick acknowledged, that the contract had been made without the knowledge of the master-general, for that the board had been given to understand that secrecy was necessary on the subject, as the market would undoubtedly have been raised upon them, if it should have been known in Ostend that the board of Ordnance wanted salt-petre. The hon. member with whom they had made the contract, had pointed out to them the necessity for secrecy; and as to the price, they had been guided in it by the prices of the India sales, and of the market at Garraway's.

Mr. Townson said, that his character as a merchant, stood high and unimpeached; that from the correspondence which he had as a merchant, he had learned that there was a great quantity of saltpetre at Ostend, and that it was a commodity that was growing scarce throughout Europe: from this he concluded that the French, or some of our other enemies, would soon, perhaps, buy it up. To deprive them of such a resource, and procure it to his country, he thought a double service he had rendered that double service to it; and if, in so doing, he had availed himself of the character of a merchant, to derive some personal advantage to himself, he did not deem himself the less entitled to the thanks of his country. It was not to any ministerial favour or influence he owed his contract.

Mr. Courtenay in vindication of lord Townshend said, that the noble lord had sent to Russia, to Sweden, and to Den

mark, to learn the state of the saltpetre markets in these countries: in Copen hagen he found that it sold from 21. 15. to 31. 15s. per hundred; that having this knowledge, and hearing of the improvi dent contract which he understood the board of Ordnance were going to make, he sent them orders, as master-general, to stop short, and break off the treaty: Mr. Courtenay himself had been the messenger on the occasion; but when he explained himself, they appeared surprised; and informed him that the contract had been signed three days before. With re spect to the merit which the last speaker assumed to himself from having found out this saltpetre at Ostend; and the neces sity which he had insinuated that there was of acting with secrecy and caution, he could not see ground either for this assumed merit, or for secrecy; for it was known that the Ostend saltpetre had been frequently advertised in the London newspapers. If the India Company asked 1181. per ton for their saltpetre, they al ways allowed 61 per cent. for prompt pay ment: now the hon. member, in his con tract, was to have ready money, or prompt payment; but not a farthing was he to pay discount. The Company paid also 7 per cent. duty to the crown; the hon. member, he understood, was to have his saltpetre pass duty-free: these two arti cles together, made 14 per cent in his fa vour; and 14 per cent might not be deem ed too great profit for a merchant; but when he got 30, 40, nay 50 per cent. the public had a right to call the bargain impro vident; and such was the profit on the contract; for the hon. member was to have more than 67. per ton for that which sold from between 31. 15s. to 4l. 15s. per ton. At the same time he must beg leave to say, that he fully exculpated, in his own mind, the board of Ordnance, from the guilt of making an indiscreet and cri minal contract. He believed that they made it in the firm reliance, that as Mr. Townson was a member of parliament, and a director of the East India Com pany, he must be a man of honour.

Mr. Gregory declared the India Com pany did not refuse to let the Ordnance have any more saltpetre without paying for what was then owing; all they refused was to trust for any more, being them selves in want of cash. The Company had, at the time the contract was made with Mr. Townson, 1,212 tons in their warehouses, which they would have sold

to the Ordnance for ready money, without the old debt being paid; and as a proof of their regard for the ordnance, they had, out of that 1,212 tons, reserved 700 tons for their use, supposing they might want it, and had absolutely deposited it in the King's warehouse under the White Tower; that on the 25th of January last the Company had sold 275 tons, at 110. per ton, which was much less than the price agreed to be paid to Mr. Townson, besides making the usual discount of 61. 10s. per ton, and paying 77. 10s. for duty. Mr. Strachey defended the Ordnance board from any guilt in the contract, and declared, they knew nothing of Mr. Townson; neither did he, or Mr. Kenrick, ever see Mr. Townson until they voted for him at the India House.

Mr. T. Townshend, after paying many compliments to the master general of the Ordnance, for his upright conduct in of fice, reprobated in the most severe terms the saltpetre contract, and declared his utter aversion to pass the Ordnance estiemates while there was such a glaring sum put down to the use of fortifications, without a single line of their utility being urged or defended by any one military or professsional man.

Lord North said he was a total stranger to the contract so reprobated, and he was free to own, by the present appearance it was enormous: with respect to Mr. Townson, he never, until after the contract was over, knew he had it. The only reason he supposed for Mr. Townson's having the contract was, his being the only person that made an offer. With respect to the article in the estimate of fortifications, they were in his opinion highly necessary; they were a safety to our shipping, and added strength to the navy, as fewer ships were wanted to protect our coasts. He gave that only as his own opinion, confessing himself not sufficiently master of the subject, it being entirely out of his province. It was now much later than usual, he said, in the session for the supply to be granted, therefore any impediment to it would be doing a material injury to the service. He proposed to leave out the article of saltpetre procured from Mr. Townson, amounting to 149,000l. and vote the remainder, as money was much wanted.

Mr. Byng was exceedingly animated respecting the shameful contracts and abuse of public money; the constituents be had the honour of representing, he [VOL. XXII.]

said, from their situation, had an opportunity of seeing and knowing more what was passing than most others, and they had instructed him to declare, that so far from there being a necessity to keep the contract respecting saltpetre a secret, the sale at Ostend was publicly advertised in the London newspapers. He was credibly informed the chief contract for ordnance transports lay with some of the clerks of the same board; and he desired to know from the gentlemen in office whether the contract for ordnance transports was ever advertised. He never was so thoroughly convinced of the necessity of sir P. J. Clerke's motion, to exclude contractors from parliament, as now.

Mr. Kenrick said, he could not inform the hon. member whether the ordnance transport contracts were advertised or not; but one reason for the expence being great on that head was, our allowing seven men to every 100 ton of shipping, where merchants only had five men and a boy; the reason for our having that difference was, all our transports being armed ships, and requiring a larger share of hands to work the guns, and navigate the vessels, than those that were not armed.

Mr. Fox was astonished to hear the noble lord in the blue ribbon deny any knowledge of Mr. Townson. Did not he know he was member for Milborne Port, the place where his lordship's conduct was so recorded? Did not his lordship know he was an India director? Did he not know he was a merchant, and ready at his nod on all occasions? That his lordship had no hand in making the contract he was ready to confess; for if he had, he would have made it at the highest price, namely 1531. per ton; the same as he did the contract for rum, where he suffered himself to be cheated, and then, in return, cheated the public. That contract, too, was made with a perfect stranger to his lordship; and he supposed the board of Ordnance dealt with Mr. Townson for the same reason that the two hon. members voted for him at the Indiahouse, " because they never saw him before." Could there be a plainer proof of Mr. Townson being the creature of the minister, than the people of the Ordnance being compelled to vote for him? Certainly not. There never could be any fair representation of the people in that House, while such a nest of contractors and loan-jobbers were suffered to sit there. It was impossible for the minister [3 Q]