DEPARTMENTS OF PUBLIC HEALTH, &c. RESOLUTION. SIR J. CLARKE JERVOISE rose to move "That it is expedient that the Departments of Public Health, Cattle Plague, and Quarantine should cease to exist as Establishments, due regard being had to all personal interests and to all in dividual claims." He reminded the House that this was no annuation to a salary when the office could Members to the subject his object would be adequately filled without the super- have been gained. annnuation was to a great extent to throw money away. He now came to the remedies he would propose. First, he would give all public servants to understand that if they could reduce their numbers, the reduction should be taken into account in dealing with their salaries. He believed that if this were done, in many instances two public servants would be able to do work which now required three. Next a clear distinction should be drawn between clerks and writers, between brain work and handwork. In the clerical part of the service we should extend the system adopted in the Admiralty and Customs of employing an inferior class of men as writers, and paying them by the day, without any right to superannuation, and with power to discharge them if their services were not satisfactory. We might certainly carry out this plan much further than we did in the Military and Naval Departments, and he should like to see soldiers employed upon work for which we paid at the rate of three or four times as much as a soldier's pay. The third remedy he proposed was simplification of class. It was possible by degrees to lay down a rule as to classification, which, of course, would not apply to all Departments equally, but still one which would prevent enormous additions to our expenditure. Fourthly, for the future when persons as to whom we did not require the present system of superannuation entered the service, he would give them no right to superannuation; but would treat them as we treat a large number of persons in the dockyards, in fact all the officers and men in the factories, who remained in the service just as much as they would if they were entitled to superannuation. In this way we should in process of time save between £750,000 and £1,000,000. The last remedy he would propose was that the House should, by its own efforts, endeavour to increase the control of the Treasury, and enable them to carry out those financial reforms which, if they were well-treated by this House he knew the Treasury was capable of carrying out. In making these suggestions he meant to convey no reflection upon right hon. Gentlemen opposite. It was not a party but an economical question which was involved; it was simply how the House could best discharge one of its most important functions; and if he had done no more for the present than direct the attention of some hon. To please the genteelest censor; Of Lord Althorp's, now Lord Spencer." When the Estimates were brought forward | content a few years ago to live in a much he should move that the expense charged more frugal way than they did now. Perfor these Departments should be disallowed sons now required luxuries and refinements and the establishments suppressed. which a few years ago were only enjoyed THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE- by those in a higher grade than they ocQUER said, he had failed to observe the cupied. All those circumstances tended to hon. Baronet's Notice on the Paper; increase the expenditure for the Civil Serotherwise he would have risen immediately vice. He was not at all sure, either, wheafter his hon. Friend the Member for ther those additional luxuries did not make Pontefract (Mr. Childers) had concluded persons in the Civil Service think that the his speech. With regard to the observa- hours formerly spent in public offices were tions of the hon. Baronet, he understood too long, that so constant an attention to that for some time the Treasury had been business as had formerly been paid to it considering the question, whether there was irksome, and that they ought to be might not be a further reduction in the afforded more frequent opportunities of Veterinary Department of the Privy Coun- absenting themselves from duty. In fact, cil. He believed that if the provisions of there was much greater luxury in every the Metropolitan Cattle Market Bill should department of life now than there had been be carried out it would enable the Trea- in the days of our fathers. There was sury to effect a considerable reduction in more luxurious living and a greater numthe expenses of that Department. But, ber of hours and days were spent in pleaapart from the question, whether that sure; and the effect was felt in increased should be carried or not, the Treasury were demands on the public purse. He thought considering whether a reduction could not all that must be taken into account. Not be made. With regard to the remarks of the only had the salaries of different officers hon. Member for Pontefract, (Mr. Childers) been raised, but more persons were rehe thought the hon. Gentleman had done quired to do the work. He thought it good service in calling the attention of the probable that something might be done in House to the regulations with respect to the way of reducing the number of persons the Civil Service. The hon. Gentleman employed in the public service; but, as had referred to the large amount of sala- regarded salaries, he could assure the ries and pensions, and the figures to which House that the Treasury was the great he had called the attention of the House, keeping down Department. He had heard showed that this was a matter of no little it alleged that the Treasury was the importance. He had compared the number spending Department; but it was in the of persons employed at the present day other Departments-more particularly the in the different Departments of the Civil War Department and the Admiralty-the Service with the number employed some great expenditure took place. If any hon. years ago; but he had himself admitted Gentlemen attended even for one day in most candidly that that comparison would the Treasury he would hear there the be imperfect unless you went into all the constant cries of "Give, give, give," and causes of increase, and into the different" Lend, lend, lend," followed on the part duties assigned to the Departments now of the Office by the reply, "No, no, no." in contrast with the duties assigned then. But, with great respect, he must say that Anyone who had followed the course of in its efforts to keep down the public legislation for the last few years must be expenditure, the Treasury was not always aware that the tendency had been to re- backed up by the House of Commons. It quire a much greater supervision over dif- was true that in Parliament loud comferent branches of trade, of agriculture, plaints were made of the amount of that and of the other descriptions of employ- expenditure; but when pensions and salament in which the population of this coun- ries were brought under the notice of hon. try was engaged, than had been required Members the tendency of the House was formerly. There was now a close inspec- to increase those charges. His right hon. tion of the factories in which young per- and learned Friend the Member for the sons and children were engaged in manu- Queen's County constantly blamed the facturing operations. Now, such super- Treasury for refusing to make certain vision required an increased number of payments-[General DUNNE: Hear, bear!] civil servants and an enlarged organization.but it was his belief that if hon. MemAgain, there had been a rapid progress in bers supported the Treasury in its attempts luxury and refinements. Persons were to keep down the public expenditure, they would do much more good than they could of classification. A good deal might be possibly do by making abstract speeches said on that score; but he did not know a and so forth. His hon. Friend the Mem-more difficult question with which the ber for Pontefract had compared the ex- Treasury had to deal than that of the adpenses connected with the administration justment of the duties and the salaries of of justice here with the expenses connected officers in the Civil Service. The matter with the administration of justice in was one on which scarcely any two persons France. He had said he possessed no could be found to agree. The classificameans of making a comparison between tions of Departments and of ranks on some any other items in the Civil Service ex- general principle was matter to which he penditure of the two countries. Now, he did had been turning his attention for a long not go so far as his hon. Friend, because he time; but though in theory such a classifithought he had no means of making a com- cation was one which recommended itself, parison between the two items compared in practice it presented serious difficulties. by his hon. Friend. He believed that the It could not be started without leaving administration of justice in this country vested interests untouched. In almost and the administration of justice in France every Department a place had to be made proceeded on different principles. He for some person, who, though not properly thought it quite likely that under a system coming within it, was really indispensable by which the administration of justice was to the office. It would be almost impossible so much centralized that administration to lay down any rule to which there would might cost much less than it did in our be no exceptions. If a uniform system country, where to a very great extent it were established, and regard were had to was localized. But that which satisfied vested interests, the rule so established France might not satisfy England. It was could not be carried out for a century, or of the last importance that a country should for fifteen or twenty years at least; and be satisfied with the system under which before then, some new notion might spring justice was administered to its people, and up, which would make another change therefore this was one of the things in absolutely necessary. Those were very respect of which we must have regard to considerable difficulties in a practical point quality as well as to quantity. He con- of view; and although the theory might fessed that to a great extent he went with do very well if they were starting with a his hon. Friend, as regarded the compe- tabula rasa in a new society, yet, in an old titive system. He believed that when we country like this, with different Departcarried it into the very low branches of the ments which had grown up from time to Civil Service we made a mistake. In these time, and where the existing staff had had branches our object was to get men of good their salaries fixed with reference to their character, and trustworthy. Of course it special duties, the difficulties in establishing was necessary that they should have a such a system would almost appal anybody certain amount of education to enable who attempted it. At all events, it could them to perform their duties; but the ef- only be done by means of a Commission, fect of going too low with competitive ex-going not only into the question of the aminations was to get men who were above their work. A man who passed a competitive examination, and was then appointed to a humble position, said "I have passed an examination and obtained so many marks. I am entitled to something better than this." The consequence was that he became a discontented man. He was not content to give his services for the salary which had been paid to the man who had preceded him. He believed that the feeling to which he had just referred was at the bottom of a good deal of the discontent in the Civil Service. Therefore, while admitting the utility of competitive examinations in the higher branches, he did not think they should run the system too far. His hon. Friend had spoken of the want salaries of the different Departments, but also into the duties of almost every officer, and certainly of every class of officer in them. The subject was really one of vast dimensions, and he confessed that he almost thought it would be better to leave pretty well alone than to embark upon an unknown sea. At that hour of the night he would not trespass further on the time of the House, as he wished to get into Committee; but the question was one on which it was possible to speak at almost any length; and if he did not follow the hon. Member further into it, it was from no disrespect towards him, nor from any want of appreciation of the importance of the subject. He thanked him for bringing the question forward, and he hoped that the hon. Member's remarks would not be without their effect on the House when they were considering questions of salaries and pensions. Motion negatived. CIRCULAR DELIVERY COMPANY AND THE COMMISSIONAIRES. QUESTION. MR. WYLD said, he would beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether the Post Office authorities are aware that COURTS OF APPEAL-ASSESSED TAXES. the Circular Delivery Company (Limited) QUESTION. MR. TREEBY begged to inquire of the Secretary of the Treasury, Whether he has directed his attention to the Return which he had brought under the Notice of the House last night, on the subject of Courts of Appeal in cases of Assessed Taxes? MR. SCLATER-BOOTH said, he was exceedingly sorry that he was unable to reply to the hon. Gentleman's statement last night. His attention had been called to the Return for which the hon. Member moved some months back, and which had been laid on the table. That Return showed that throughout the country there were a great number of towns, containing a considerable population, which were situated more than four miles distant from a Court of Appeal for Assessed Taxes. Considering the great amount of apparent inconvenience which that must occasion, it was surprising that the complaints of the taxpayers were not more frequent or more bitter than they were on that account. He could only say that, having made inquiry of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, he was informed it was very rarely that serious complaints were made to them of the inconveniences which must undoubtedly exist, and that practically they found little difficulty, when complaints were made, in getting the Local Commissioners to appoint more convenient places for holding the appeals. Still the subject was, no doubt, one requiring consideration with a view to the provision of a remedy. That was only one instance among many of what the people of this country were willing to bear in order to enjoy the advantage of a tribunal which was independent of the Government. The Local Commissioners were generally country gentlemen, and were entirely unpaid. He would take care that inquiries should be made into the extent to which those difficulties prevailed, and hoped in the course of the Recess to be able to inform himself whether legislation on the matter was necessary, or whether it was possible by other means to remove great part of the inconvenience to which the hon. Gentleman had referred. was a strictly co-operative Company, delivering documents, newspapers, and circulars for their own members only by their own servants; and, whether it is their intention to press for the penalties in the case, as it appears that the proceedings of the Company in question have been strictly within the provisions of the Post Office Act; and, whether it is intended to prosecute the body of Commissionaires, who have been for years employed publicly in doing precisely the same kind of work; and, if the Post Office authorities do not intend to prosecute in that case what are the reasons for the exemption, and how the Commissionaires can legally do that which the Circular Delivery Company (Limited) is prosecuted for doing? MR. STEPHEN CAVE said, the Chancellor of the Exchequer was prevented by the rules of the House from speaking again; but if it had been otherwise, his right hon. Friend would not have been able to answer the question put by the hon. Gentleman, because the matter to which it related was at the present moment before a Court of Law. IRELAND-ROYAL IRISH ACADEMY. OBSERVATIONS. MR. GREGORY said, he rose to call the attention of the Government to the present condition of the Royal Irish Academy, owing to the operations of the Irish Board of Works. There were three dif ferent operations carried on under one Department in Ireland, and the result was mismanagement, confusion, and expense. THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: The threefold operations just named have been brought to a termination. MR. GREGORY said, he was extremely glad to receive this assurance. The Royal Irish Academy possesses the most remarkable collection of Scandinavian-he meant Celtic antiquities; and this vast collection is shut up in boxes scattered here, there, and everywhere. He wished to know, Whether anything is going to be done to enable the Royal Irish Academy to exhibit its Museum to the public? Large sums have been contributed by the public, and the collection ought to be open to the public. MR. DISRAELI said, he would remind the hon. Gentleman that there was a Commission appointed to inquire into all the Art Institutions in Ireland, and he hoped the result of their labours would be to terminate the abuses to which the hon. Gentleman referred. MR. ALDERMAN SALOMONS said, he hoped that the explanation would be satisMotion, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave factory to the worthy Alderman (Mr. Althe Chair," agreed to. SUPPLY-CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES. (In the Committee.) derman Lusk). MR. ALDERMAN LUSK said, it was hardly so explicit and to the purpose as he could have wished; but, under the circumstances, he would not press his objec (1.) £35,609, to complete the sum for tion. the Treasury. (2.) Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £28,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1869, for Her Majesty's Foreign and other Secret Services." MR. ALDERMAN LUSK said, that this Vote had gone unchallenged since he had the honour of a seat in that House. In this country it was part of our creed that public matters should be discussed in the light of day. Open doors and full newspaper reports were advocated as necessary to political health, and he could not understand why there should be a Vote of this kind. He had been informed that part of the money asked was not for the purest objects, and unless the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury could assure him that none of this money went for base and corrupt political purposes, he should move that the Vote be reduced by £10,000. "That a Motion made, and Question proposed, sum, not exceeding £18,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1869, for Her Majesty's Foreign and other Secret Services."(Mr. Lusk.) SIR JOHN GRAY agreed that the Committee ought to know what was done with this secret service money. It might, for all they knew, be employed for base purposes, as in the payment of informers and spies. If they were told what the secret service money was wanted for they would vote it freely. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. Original Question put, and agreed to. Home Office. (3.) £56,410, to complete the sum for MR. CHILDERS said, there was an understanding that the expenses of the Fisheries Commission should not be increased, and he therefore regretted to see an addition of five persons connected with the Commission. MR. ALDERMAN LUSK said, there was an increase of £5,600 in this Vote. There was now no need for some of the Inspectors, as the Act under which several were appointed in Scotland had been done away with. MR. NEATE said, he could not understand how the travelling expenses of the Inspectors were always the same fixed sum. Was it done by contract? GENERAL DUNNE wished to know when the present system would cease? MR. WALDEGRAVE-LESLIE said, he thought the fees to surgeons in the Factory Department, which had increased from £1,550 to £2,000, ought to be paid by the factory owners themselves, and not by the Government. The salaries of the Local Government Act Office had increased by £1,000. He thought that fees to cover the expenses of this Office ought to be charged to those towns which employed its agency. MR. GATHORNE HARDY said, there had been a considerable increase in the number of Inspectors of late years, and if the House passed Acts which required Inspectors to carry them out, they must not be surprised if this Vote showed an increase. The Fisheries Commission was |