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in what fell from the noble Earl who spoke | The latter appointment had not been asked last (the Earl of Longford), and I hope for; but the very next day the War Office that he will be able to give us some fur- accepted the proposal of the Treasury with ther explanation on this point. I hope the exception of some details. Discussions there will be no delay in going on with must evidently have occurred between such reforms as are contemplated, for your December and June, but no light had been Lordships may rest assured that the un- thrown on them-though the remarks of certainty that hangs over offices when the noble Earl seemed to imply that the changes are intended to be made is ex- Treasury objected to the original scheme tremely inconvenient and mischievous both because they wished to secure efficient inside and outside the office. It is essen- financial control. The Treasury, indeed, tial it should be clearly understood that had of late years shown a disposition, as whenever changes are thought desirable and well in the case of the Admiralty as of the are determined upon they should be at War Office, to set up little Treasuries in once commenced; although they should the various Departments, so as to hold be carried out no doubt with the greatest communications with subordinate officers forbearance and consideration for those in them without the intervention of the concerned, but yet with as little delay in heads. The question was whether the carrying out a great measure of reform as principal Financial Officer and his deputy possible. There is no point of military were to be the officers of the Treasury or interest on which the country has ex- of the War Office-for this was the gist of pressed an opinion more strongly than the the whole question. If the intention was desirability of some regular system which that every proposal connected with expenshould avoid confusion and tend to con- diture should go from the Controller-infirm the wise and prudent arrangements Chief to the new Financial Officer, how which have been made from time to time was the business of the former to be by the various military Departments. I carried on? It must not be supposed that hope that the result of to-night's conver- this would be a mere form, for the fault of sation will be to satisfy Sir Henry Storks the War Department was that it was given that no intention is implied in this Minute to endless correspondence and delay, and of removing him from the important post he could conceive no proposal more calcufor which he is so well fitted, and the du- lated to increase the evils already existing. ties of which I feel sure he will discharge Moreover, to take off the responsibility to the satisfaction of the country, and to from the shoulders of the officer of practhe great simplification of the general tical knowledge and transfer it to an offiarrangements of the War Office. cer not having such knowledge was likely to encourage the former to be reckless in his recommendations as to expenditure, since, whether they were accepted or rejected, the responsibility would not rest with him. As to the preparation of the Estimates, the Secretary of State, as the illustrious Duke had remarked, was the person responsible, and unless he was brought in contact with the officer of prac tical knowledge there was little chance of efficiency or economy. The noble Earl (the Earl of Longford) had not given a full explanation on this point. As a civilian he must protest against that portion of the scheme which implied that no military man was fit to be the Financial Officer, for he had found military men quite as anxious for economy as civilians, and men, moreover, who from their professional know. ledge were much more fitted than civilians to offer excellent suggestions with a view to economy. Indeed, at the time the Treasury put forward their scheme the office of permanent Under Secretary was

LORD NORTHBROOK said, that no one could have held office, as he had done, in the War Department without feeling the necessity of extensive but judicious changes. The explanation of the noble Earl (the Earl of Longford) must have greatly increased the apprehensions of his noble Friend (Earl de Grey); for though the noble Earl deprecated the importance attributed to the matter, and represented the re-organization of the Department as a very ordinary proceeding, the correspondence on the subject was of a very extraordinary character. In December, 1867, the War Office applied to the Treasury for the appointment of a Controller-in-Chief, with a position equivalent to that of Under Secretary of State, and with a salary of £2,000 a year; but in the following June the Treasury proposed the appointment of a Controller without the rank of Under Secretary, and at a salary of £1,500, and likewise of a principal Financial Officer with a salary of £1,500, and with a deputy.

held by a civilian. When, too, the gigantic tions into effect the Secretary of State for expenditure attendant upon the Indian War had adopted two very important mutiny was brought down to something measures-he had selected an officer of like a peace expenditure, it was military acknowledged ability and tried experience men who did it, General Balfour being to preside over the organization of the one of the most distinguished. He hoped, new system, and he had given that officer therefore, that so unwise a rule would not the high appointment of Under Secretary be laid down. He should like some further of State with a proportionate salary. Unexplanation as to the position of Sir Henry fortunately, however, the Letter of the Storks-whether he was to remain Con- Treasury bearing date the 29th of Junetroller-in-Chief with the salary and position the last, he believed, of the Correspondence originally proposed, or with the less re- which had been laid before the Housesponsible position suggested by the Trea- had nullified the advantages of that apsury. In conclusion, he begged to say pointment of Sir Henry Storks as Underthat this matter was one of very great Secretary, and was opposed to the tenour national importance, and if Her Majesty's and spirit of the most important recomGovernment had been induced to give way mendations of the Committee over which to the Treasury, he hoped they would he had presided. It was evident that an retire as quickly as possible by a change officer in Sir Henry Storks' position reof position from the place which they now quired all the assistance he could get in occupied, and he had no doubt the country carrying out a difficult task. It was would support them. equally evident that the announcement in the Treasury Letter of the date which he mentioned must have very materially interfered with that influence which was so necessary for Sir Henry Storks' success. There was another point in the Treasury Letter to which he wished to refer, and that was, the association of an Officer of Finance with the Controller-in-Chief on equal terms. In other words, the Treasury proposed to associate two officers with wholly different objects, and, he must say from past experience, he feared antagonistic views. Speaking briefly, the Chief Controller might be said to represent expenditure, while the Financial Officer represented economy. There would therefore be a perpetual jarring between the two Departments. That association of incoherent elements was entirely opposed to the most essential recommendations of the Committee, which were that the administrative or civil Departments of the army, now disconnected, should be brought into unity of action with the regimental Departments, under one authority, one head; the Controller-in-Chief representing the authority and duties of the Secretary for War and those of the Commander-inChief. He thought the House was largely indebted to his noble Friend on the opposite Benches (Earl De Grey) for the zeal and ability with which he had a second LORD STRATHNAIRN said, that the time brought this question before the real question now before the House was, House. He entirely agreed with the he ventured to think, whether the recom- illustrious Duke as to the vital importance mendations of the Committee over which of this matter. Their Lordships might he had presided should be carried out or be surprised to hear that one of the great not. In order to carry those recommenda- difficulties which Sir Robert Napier had

THE EARL OF LONGFORD, in explanation, said that there was no intention of interfering with the functions of the illus. trious Duke or the Horse Guards as they were at present exercised. It was the most earnest wish of the Department that Sir Henry Storks should continue to hold the position of Controller-in-Chief. The illustrious Duke had spoken of the Estimates. It had been his intention to explain that the Estimates would be framed very much as at present, and would be submitted to the Secretary of State for War. The Financial Secretary of the Treasury would be consulted, but not exclusively. The illustrious Duke was also anxious that no time should be lost in proceeding with the arrangements, which were entirely in accordance with the wish of the War Office. But the delay had been very much occasioned by another matter, to which the illustrious Duke had referred-namely, the necessity of consult ing the vested interests of the numerous officers employed in the different Departments. He quite concurred with what had fallen from the noble Lord (Lord Northbrook), that it was not impossible that military men might be found quite competent to conduct, as financiers, the military finances of the accounts of the War Office.

lately to encounter was a total disorganization of the transport for the Abyssinian campaign. That disorganization of the transport system at Bombay had been the cause of the delay of the operations for one month. It was really no easy matter to describe all the difficulties that had occurred. Hundreds-he might say almost thousands-of mules were landed on the seashore, and there was no one to take care of them. They ate up fifteen fathoms of rope to which they were attached, they were badly tethered, and the whole arrangements were so bad that the officer in command was obliged to name an officer from the 3rd Dragoon Guards in order to

have the commonest attention paid to the animals in the general pursuit of them along the coast. He could only join, therefore, in the wish expressed by the illustrious Duke that no time might be lost in giving full effect to the recommendations of the Committee. In associating the Controller-in-Chief with the principal Financial Officer the Treasury had lost sight of a condition to which the Committee attached the greatest importance, and which they constantly and earnestly advocated as a guarantee of the success of the organization that was, that the Secretary of State for War should undertake no army measure without the concurrence, if possible, or at any rate the knowledge and advice, of the Commander-in-Chief. Now he would be very sorry that it should be supposed that he was a partizan. So little was he affected by partizanship that when Her Majesty's Government established the office of Secretary of State for Warunder the influence, certainly, of a loudly expressed public opinion. he (Lord Strathnairn) at once stated that every military authority in this country-even the Commander-in-Chief himself-must be under the influence of the superior authority vested in the new Secretary of State for War. But, while he said that, he must also say that there was no view which presented itself so frequently and in such different forms to his mind as this -that the greatest harm would be done to the military service by the non-recognition of this great principle-that the Secretary of State for War, while the supreme military authority, should undertake no military measure without the knowledge and advice, and, if possible, the concurrence of the Commander-in-Chief. House adjourned at a quarter before Eight o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Eleven o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Thursday, July 16, 1868. MINUTES.] - NEW MEMBER SWORN - Ralph Assheton, esquire, for Clitheroe.

MATES.

WAYS AND MEANS-considered in Committee— SUPPLY-considered in Committee-ARMY ESTIPUBLIC BILLS-Resolution in Committee-Artizans and Labourers Dwellings [Stamp Duty]. Ordered-Expiring Laws Continuance; Woods

and Game Assessment. First Reading-Hudson's Bay Company [240]; Expiring Laws Continuance [241]; Woods and Game Assessment [242]. Second Reading - Colonial Shipping [236]: Admiralty Suits [234]; Railway Companies' [237].

Special Report of Select Committee - Electric
Telegraphs [No. 435].
Committee-Metropolitan Foreign Cattle Market
(re-comm.) [139]-B.P.; Poor Law Board
Provisional Order Confirmation * [231]

Report

Electric Telegraphs* [82-239]; Poor Law Board Provisional Order Confirmation [231] Considered as amended-Titles to Land Consolidation (Scotland)* [151]; General Police and Improvement (Scotland) Act Amendment * Third Reading. [226].

Titles to Land Consolidation (Scotland) [151]; General Police and Im. provement (Scotland) Act Amendment [226]; Sir Robert Napier's Annuity* [230], and passed.

The House met at Twelve of the clock.

SOUTH-EASTERN AND LONDON, BRIGH-
TON, AND SOUTH COAST RAILWAY
COMPANIES' BILL-(by Order).
LORDS' AMENDMENTS.
Lords' Amendments considered; several
agreed to.

MR. WATKIN moved that they should disagree with one of such Amendments, and reminded the House that the interests of about 5,000 persons were involved in this matter. His object was to get restored to the Bill a clause which their Lordships had struck out, and which clause gave the shareholders power to divide their stock into two classes, preferred and deferred stock, and this had, in other instances, been found to be a most convenient course. One great advantage was, that it discouraged those speculators who endeavoured to keep down the price of stock; and another was that it gave large holders a very valuable mode of distributing their property in the stocks. The South-Eastern Railway Company now wanted to raise £400,000 for the purpose of constructing a railway to Woolwich and elsewhere, and they would have considerable difficulty in raising the money unless this power were

granted. There were numerous precedents for granting it, especially in the case of the Great Northern and in the strictly analogous case of the East Anglian. The Railway Commissioners in their Report said that the shareholders ought to be permitted to arrange these things for themselves, and Lord Redesdale, in his model Railway Bill, had inserted a clause giving the power. No one in the other House had objected to the power being in the present Bill except the Chairman of Committees, who carried his point by a small majority, and in so doing he (Mr. Watkin) must express his opinion that the noble Lord had been eminently inconsistent and eminently unjust, and therefore he proposed, in no spirit of offence to their Lordships, that the House disagree to the Amendment.

MR. STEPHEN CAVE: I should be sorry to make any attack on the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees in the House of Lords. I have never found him wanting in courtesy, and I believe him to have frequently done excellent service in protecting the interests of the public. In this instance I regret that a personal attack upon me by the noble Lord obliges me to say a very few words. The noble Lord, in complaining of railway influence at the Board of Trade, is reported to have said in reference to a similar clause to that of which I have given notice in the Railways' Regulation Bill

"In all probability the imprudence of the Vice President will impose upon your Lordships the necessity of reversing a decision of the other House."-[3 Hansard, exciii. 1078.]

As to railway influence at the Board of Trade, I do not care to say anything. The opinions expressed to me by the railway interest in this House in reference to this very Bill do not lead me to think that they share in that opinion. With reference to the charge against myself I have three remarks to make. In the first place, that it is somewhat strong ground to take, that a collision between the two Houses is provoked by the introduction into a public Bill of a provision rejected in the House of Lords chiefly because it was not in a public but in a private Bill. Secondly, it would seem somewhat unusual to discuss "elsewhere" an Amendment which is merely on the Notice Paper of this House, and has never been brought forward. Lastly, that the President of the Board of Trade is responsible for the conduct of the Department. He is a Member of the House of Lords. Surely, then, the noble VOL. CXCIII [THIRD SERIES.]

Lord ought to have called him to account, and not have attacked-as I understand, in the temporary absence of the noble Duke his representative in this House, who acts of course under his direction in these matters. I venture, therefore, to think that the term "imprudence" may be more justly applied to the remarks of the noble Lord than to the conduct of the Vice President of the Board of Trade. I shall not speak or vote in reference to this Amendment, as I shall be prepared to support it to-morrow when it comes before the House in Committee on the Railways Regulation Bill.

Amendment disagreed to.

Committee appointed," to draw up Reasons to be assigned to The Lords for disagreeing to the Amendment to which this House hath disagreed :"

Mr. MILNER GIBSON, Mr. LAING, Mr. Leeman, To withdraw immediately; Three to be the Mr. WATKIN, and Mr. KNATCHBULL-HUGESSEN :

quorum.

SUPPLY.

Order for Committee read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

PETITION OF S. A. GODDARD.

OBSERVATIONS.

MR. H. B. SHERIDAN rose to call attention to the Petition of Mr. Samuel

Aspinwall Goddard, merchant and gunmaker of Birmingham [presented 24th April], stating his claims for inventions and improvements in the construction of breechloading cannon. The hon. Member said, that some years ago the Government had challenged the inventive power of the country to solve the problem as to having breech-loading cannon; and Mr. Goddard was one of the earliest to come forward, and he succeeded in making a breechloading cannon. The weapon was handed over to the Select Committee on Ordnance, that they might test its powers. Members of that Committee made various suggestions, and the result was that Mr. Goddard manufactured several other breechloading cannon and sent them to the Government; and at last he invented a guu which was said by the Government and by the Select Committee to be as perfect a gun as could at that time be found. Mr. Goddard thought that having found out what was wanted he was in a position to command the attention of the Government. He offered to the Government that they

2 S

The

should take the gun to Shoeburyness and fire 500 rounds from it without cleaning, the only condition being that they should put a wet sponge down it. Mr. Goddard described the merits of his invention in the Petition, from which he would read the following passage :

"This cannon was taken to Shoeburyness, General Cator, the president, and Colonel W. H. Pickering, the secretary, and other Members of the Select Committee attending, and that it was then and there loaded and fired 360 or 370 times successively without sponging or cleaning, and without any appliance whatever, not even the insertion of the wet sponge, as had been stipulated for. That these facts are in substance recorded in the Minutes of the Select Committee; that this cannon has met and satisfied the essential requirements of a breech-loading cannon; and that the qualities which it possesses are permanent and not transitory, and may be copied and extended to other cannon indefinitely. That General Cator, on the conclusion of the trial, declared that, the cannon worked well;' that neither he nor the other members of the Committee then present could see any fault in it, but that all that he and the Committee could do was to commend it to the Government, which they would do.' That soon after this Report was sent in, petitioner was instructed by the War Department to get up a 32-pounder upon a similar construction, which was done, and the cannon was delivered at Woolwich, where it was proved, with three several charges of 18, 18, and 20 pounds of powder and ball, after which it was taken to Shoeburyness, and loaded and fired many times, several times with 56 lb. oblong shot, without any obstruction arising and without exhibiting any defect. That this 32-pounder was mounted upon a carriage invented by petitioner, combining an inclined plane upon which the recoil took place, the force of which was retarded by strong indiarubber belts, which also drew it back into position, effecting the double object of preventing shock by recoil, and of placing the cannon in position, without the intervention of much, if any, manual labour, which plan of carriage, though it may not be brought literally into use, suggests valuable ideas to artillerists in Her Majesty's service, and these inventions have, as your petitioner believes, been to some extent applied. That Mr. Armstrong's cannon was accepted, and that of your petitioner put aside, the small one, which had been so successful, being placed in the Arsenal at Woolwich, where it remains at the present time. That after a large number of Armstrong cannon had been manufactured, including 1,000 100-pounders, either finished or in process of manufacture, and a very large sum of money had been expended, and after they had proved defective in service in China or Japan, as was reported, Her Majesty's Secretary of War desired petitioner to go to Woolwich, and see if he could alter to his

plan the 100-pounder Armstrong guns which were in preparation. That petitioner did go to Woolwich, and found that his breech-loading cannon, which had been lying at Woolwich, had been got out and put in order, and examined by the Select Committee of the Honourable Board of Ordnance,

and your petitioner humbly represents that the request of the Minister of War to your petitioner

to go to Woolwich and see if he could not alter the Armstrong gun to his plan, after such examination by the Select Committee had been made, was very conclusive evidence of its possessing substantial merits, and a very high compliment to his invention. That, in examining the butts prepared for the Armstrong 100-pounders, petitioner reported to the Select Committee that they could be finished on his plan, but would not be perfect guns, inasmuch as that they were, in his opinion, already weak where they should be strong, while the alteration would make them still weaker; but that there were at the Arsenal some 70-pounder butts of a construction well adapted to the object. That the War Department accepted this Report, and requested petitioner to provide working drawings, and give such instructions to the Superintendent at Woolwich as would enable him to get up a 70-pounder on the proposed model. That petitioner considered such request in the nature of a command, and did provide the drawings, and attended with his machinist at Woolwich on several occasions to give instructions for getting up the cannon and to examine the execution of the work. That the difficulties which presented themselves at the outset in the construction of breechloading cannon were, first, a mode of closing the breech; and, second, a mode of preventing the escape of gas upon the discharge, both of which are completely overcome in the cannon produced by your petitioner; the former accom plished by two wedges acting in connection and nearly simultaneously, and the latter by an action to compensate for the stretching or expanding of the iron upon a discharge, in proof of the impor tance of which your petitioner has a written communication from the late Secretary of War, stating that the two inventions for effecting these objects were considered by the Department valua ble. That petitioner has devoted to this invention some portion of valuable time during a period of fourteen years; that he has expended a sum of money which, with interest, amounts to more than £5,000; that he has placed in the possession of Her Majesty's Government most valuable inventions; and that he has had no expectation of profit or recompense from any other than Her Majesty's Government."

The War Department continuing to refuse to make Mr. Goddard any remuneration for the £5,000 he had expended in what might be called the service of the Government, or for the valuable time he had given to perfecting breech-loading cannon, he applied for remuneration for the use of his invention in a gun called the "wedge-gun," which had been got up at Woolwich to supersede the Armstrong "hollow screw gun, whereupon Mr. Goddard was asked to go to Woolwich and examine that gun and point out definitely wherein his inven tion had been appropriated. Mr. Goddard accordingly did go to Woolwich and examine the wedge-gun, and found that the compensating bouche, or gas check, had been adopted without any change, and that the principle of the double wedge had been adopted with modifications. Several of

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