sented from every borough in England, | Elections appointed by law to take place Ireland, and Scotland. in November, should be postponed for one month in order that the intention of the House might not be frustrated. He feared that if the municipal Elections were allowed to be held before the Elections for Members of Parliament, bribery would be rife in connection with the former, as it was well known the municipal often decided the Parliamentary Election. Without his clause the Bill would be futile, because while the briber would abstain from bribery punishable under the Act, he would be most industrious in connection with the municipal Elections, where bribery might be practised with impunity. MR. SERJEANT GASELEE said, he altogether differed from the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Bouverie). An inquiry of this kind was always a different thing from a private law suit, and the expenses of it ought, in his opinion, to be defrayed by the public. According to this clause the ratepayers might have to pay the expenses, and he thought the ratepayers would never get up a Petition simply in order that they might have the pleasure of paying the expenses of it. He might remark that when a constituency happened to get a good Member they ought to be proud of him, and do all they could to keep him. Motion made, and Question put, "That the said Clause be now read a second time." The House divided:-Ayes 49; Noes 146 Majority 97. MR. POWELL said, he should not move the clause of which he had given Notice (This Act to apply to municipal Elections), but he hoped the question to which it referred would be dealt with before long. Clause (Postponement of Election of municipal and local officers for the year one thousand eight hundred and sixty eight,)-(Mr. Schreiber,)- brought up, and read the first time. MR. GATHORNE HARDY said, he could not accede to the proposition. While admitting that there was much force in what was said as to municipal corruption, he did not think it would be fair or reasonable to stop all municipal Elections in November on the ground that in some boroughs they might lead to bribery at the MR. SERJEANT GASELEE said, he General Election. If the clause was agreed rose to move that no new Judge be ap- to the mayors throughout England would pointed under the Bill until the number of have to alter all the arrangements they Election Petitions presented to the Court had made for the municipal elections in of Common Pleas be ascertained. The November. chief ground on which he moved this clause was, that if these new Judges were at once appointed, they would draw salaries four or five months before their services were required under the Bill. Clause (That no new judge be appointed under the said Bill until the number of Election Petitions presented to the Court of Common Pleas be ascertained,)—(Mr. Serjeant Gaselee,)-brought up, and read the first time. MR. DISRAELI said, the clause was precisely similar to one which had been moved by the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton), and respecting which he (Mr. Disraeli) pointed out at the time that it struck at the root of the Bill, and the Committee unanimously rejected it. Motion made, and Question, "That the Motion made, and Question, "That the said Clause be now read a second time," put, and negatived. MR. SCHREIBER said, he rose to move a clause providing that municipal MR. J. STUART MILL said, he could conceive nothing more stultifying than for the House, after having passed stringent measures for putting down corruption at Parliamentary elections, to allow perfect freedom of corruption in the case of municipal Elections. There could be no greater facility given to bribery at the Parliamentary Elections than to have the municipal Elections taking place just before them. Motion made, and Question put, “That the said Clause be now read a second time." The House divided:-Ayes 75; Noes 100 Majority 25. MR. DISRAELI: Sir, as it is now time to postpone the consideration of the Report, I propose that we have a Morning Sitting to-morrow, at two, for the purpose of proceeding with this Bill. Considering what was on the Paper we could hardly have flattered ourselves that we should dispose of the Report to-day, and I am bound to express my thanks to both sides of the House for the diligent manner in which hon. Gentlemen have pressed on with the Business. I am still further reconciled to an adjournment because it will remove any misunderstanding about the absence of Notice of the Solicitor General's Motion. In case we do not exhaust the Morning Sitting by considering the Bill some measures promoted by the Board of Trade will be taken, and at nine o'clock we propose to take the Cattle Bill. Further Consideration deferred till Tomorrow, at Two of the clock. ELECTRIC TELEGRAPHS BILL. (Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Stephen Cave, Mr. Sclater-Booth.) [BILL 239.] CONSIDERATION. Bill, as amended, considered. MR. SAMUDA, in behalf of Mr. Leeman, moved to substitute "fifty" pounds for "seventy-five pounds" as compensation to telegraph clerks. * (254); Courts of Chancery and Exchequer (Ireland) Fee Funds* (171); Court of Session (Scotland) (246); Tithe Commutation, &c. Acts Amendment (256); Public Departments Payments (264); Sir Robert Napier's Annuity (265); Tain Provisional Order Confirmation (242); Land Drainage Provisional Order Confirmation (241); New Zealand Assembly's Powers (247); Clerks of the Peace, &c. (Ireland)* (261); Militia Pay*; New Zealand Company* (154), and passed. PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL-(No. 262.) (The Earl of Derby.) COMMITTEE. House in Committee (according to Clauses 1 to 4, inclusive, agreed to. Clause 6 (Power of Governing Bodies to alter their Constitutions). VISCOUNT STRATFORD DE REDCLIFFE said, the time given by the clause to the Governing Bodies of Schools till the 1st of January next-was insuffiin which to reform themselves—namely, cient for the purpose. He was desirous of extending the period by another whole. year, unless their Lordships thought a more limited extension would be preferTo- able, and he would therefore propose to insert 1870 instead of 1869. THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER assented. Amendment agreed to. Bill to be read the third time morrow, at Two of the clock. And it being Six of the clock, Speaker adjourned the House till morrow, without putting the Question. HOUSE OF LORDS, Thursday, July 23, 1868. * Mr. EARL STANHOPE said, that when the second reading of the Bill was discussed there was a general feeling that the period expiring on the 1st of January next, as fixed by the Bill was not sufficient. On the other hand, he submitted that it would be unduly prolonging it to substitute the 1st of January, 1870, for the 1st of January, 1869, as suggested by the noble Viscount. An extension of three or at most six months would, he thought, fully meet all the requirements of the case. THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH concurred with his noble Friends in thinking the period fixed by the clause somewhat too limited. At the same time, it should be remembered that the purpose for which the Governing Bodies were to be called together was not one that would necessarily require long deliberation. They were not to frame statutes, but simply to propose a reform in the constitution of their own bodies. He suggested, therefore, that the 1st of May, 1869, should be inserted instead of the 1st of January, 1869; also retaining power to the Queen in Council to allow an additional three months, if that should be deemed neces MINUTES.]-PUBLIC BILLS-First Reading- # Clause amended by inserting the words "the First Day of May" instead of "the First Day of January." Clause, as amended, agreed to. LORD LYTTELTON moved an Amend. ment to leave out (" and with respect to the System of Promotion in the School"). On Question, That the said Words stand Part of the Clause? their Lordships divided:-Contents 15; Not-Contents 36: Majority 21. Resolved in the Negative. Amendment made. Graham, E. (D. Mont rose.) Granville, E. Leven and Melville, E. De Vesci, V. Stratford de Redcliffe, V. Overstone, L. borough.) Saye and Sele, L. this restriction with regard to his boarders, towards whom he stood in loco parentis for nine months of the year. LORD HOUGHTON said, that in these schools the day scholars were so few that a Conscience Clause confined to them would be of no practical importance. He fully appreciated the value of common religious. instruction and worship; but he had heard great regret expressed by Roman Catholic noblemen and gentlemen that they were unable to send their sons to our great public schools, because they would there be compelled to receive religious instruction of which their parents disapproved, and he thought a common education, irrespective of religious opinions, was so desirable that on this ground he must oppose the Amendment. He did not suppose that a large number of Protestant Dissenters would attend these schools. THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH said, he must oppose the Amendment. He thought the object of his noble Friend might be attained without the proposed exception, which might seriously interfere with the number of boys at Eton and the other schools not in the metropolis. The object of his noble Friend, as he understood it, was not to interfere with liberty of conscience in regard to the general teaching of the school, but to remove any difficulties with respect to domestic arrangements in the houses of the Masters. Now, it was perfectly competent for a Master to make any regulations he pleased with regard to the religious instruction of those under his own roof, and he might very properly make it a condition with the parents that their sons should conform to the religious instruction given them. Amendment (by Leave of the House) Bess-withdrawn. Silchester, L. (E. Long- Another Amendment made. LORD LYTTELTON moved to insert Sundridge, L.(D.Argyll. after Clause 13 the following clause : "All matters relating to the Studies, Discipline, and Administration of any School to which this LORD LYTTELTON then proposed to Act applies, except such as are 'otherwise assigned in this Act, shall be left to the unconinsert after "Boys" the words "not trolled Discretion and Power of the Head Masbeing boarders," with the view of restrict-ter."" ing the operation of the Conscience Clause There were two authorities, the Governing to day scholars. While agreeing that the parents of day scholars should be at liberty to withdraw their sons from the religious instruction of the school, he contended that it would be unfair to place a Master under Body and the Head Master, and it was impossible to make an accurate limitation of what their powers should respectively be. When they had defined as far as possible the respective powers of the two authorities they must leave in the one hand or the other a general power. The Commissioners recommended that the Governing Body should be authorized to make arrangements for the general regulation and management of the School, except in matters specially reserved for the Head Master. Now there was no such reservation in the Bill. His belief was that it would be better to leave the large and important class of subjects embraced in the clause to the discretion of the Head Master, over whom the Governing Body would have sufficient control, seeing that they had in their hands the power both of appointing and dismissing him. THE LORD CHANCELLOR said, he could not accept the proposition of the noble Lord. What was proposed to do was this-to take away from the Governing Body and vest in a person who was their servant the power as to all matters relating to studies, discipline, and administration. That was inverting the natural order of things and making the Head Master the Governing Body. EARL FORTESCUE said, the noble and learned Lord seemed to forget that the Governing Body had the absolute and uncontrolled power of dismissing the Head Master, which would be quite sufficient security that the Head Master would exercise the power proposed to be vested in him by the clause in a proper manner. THE LORD CHANCELLOR said, that the reason advanced in support of the clause was the very strongest that could be urged against it. The proposition was to give the Head Master powers which the Governing Body could not control unless they dismissed the Head Master, who might be a very excellent Master in other respects, and whom the Governing Body might be very unwilling to dismiss. LORD LYTTELTON said, that according to the fifth general recommendation of the Public School Commissioners the Head Master should have the uncontrolled power of making arrangements for the School, regulating the hours of school work, the holidays, maintaining discipline, and other such matters. If it was not the intention of the Government to give effect to that recommendation, he pressed them to say whether they would not admit the principle of reserving certain important powers to the Head Master. THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH said, the Head Master was vested with the power of selecting and dismissing the Under Masters, and the Governing Body had given to them by the Bill the power of making regulations with regard to certain specified subjects upon which they were in the habit of consulting the Head Master, and giving him a full opportunity of expressing his views. To increase the power of the Master would be to reduce that of the Governing Body. It seemed to be mistakenly supposed that the Governing Body had an authority co-existent with that of the Head Master; but the Governing Body met, perhaps, only twice a year. It was a legislative body which made general regulations, and could not interfere in minute particulars. The whole executive power must necessarily be left to the Head Master. The effect of the proposed Amendment would be to define the provinces within which the Master would retain the executive power; but the inevitable consequence would be the clashing of the authority of the Head Master with that of the Governing Body, when the former found that he had statutory power to do certain things which were not specified and defined, but were merely implied in words of vague and general meaning. EARL DE GREY AND RIPON understood it to be alleged, on the one hand, that the Governing Body had all the powers of government which were vested in the Head Master; and, on the other hand, that the powers of the Governing Body were limited to those defined by the clause. There were many points not alluded to in the clause; and it appeared to be desirable that there should be a clear understanding-that it should be laid down who was to have the power in certain matters, and that it should be stated whether what was not reserved to the Governing Body was given to the Head Master. He thought that the Government should endeavour to bring up on the Report some clauses which should give certain defined powers to the Head Master in conformity with the recommendations of the Commissioners. THE LORD CHANCELLOR thought some misapprehension had arisen from the fact that the 13th clause specified, under ten different heads, the provinces in which the power of making regulations was reserved to the Governing Body; but it would have been wholly unnecessary to have given them those powers if there had been a tabula rasa before. The clause of a School, and quoted the anecdote of was obviously introduced because it might the Head Master requesting the King to turn out that the existing statutes, charters remove his hat in the School, and afterof foundation, or other instruments might wards stating that he should lose all his contain provisions as to regulations in con- influence over the boys if they supposed flict with the reservation of them to the that the world contained a greater man than Governing Body; and therefore it was to himself. The powers of the Head Master be enacted that notwithstanding any Act should be plenary and complete; and though of Parliament, custom, &c., the Govern- no doubt some restraining power was neing Body should have the power of making cessary on the part of the Governing Body, these regulations. The object was to clear it should be kept in the background as the Governing Body of all antecedent rules much as possible. He hoped the Governas to the exercise of these powers, and ment would take time to consider the therefore they were specified. It was im- reasonable and just views taken on this possible the Governing Body could control point by the noble Lord (Lord Lyttelton). the Head Master in the matter of punishments, or the number of lines to be learnt by a scholar, and such minute details; and, unless everything to be done by the Head Master was to be defined, it was impossible to escape the conclusion that every power not given to the Governing Body was to be exercised by the Head Master. The 13th clause was not meant to describe all the powers of the Governing Body; it was meant only to remove particular statutes and instruments of foundation out of the way. EARL GRANVILLE said, it was a circumstance which ought clearly to weigh with the Government that the Amendment embodied an unanimous recommendation of the Commission, who had all the facts before them. THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH said, he could not undertake to consider what special powers should be left to the Head Master. The subject had been carefully and anxiously considered by the Select Committee. It would produce the greatest possible inconvenience to specify certain particulars which should be under the control and jurisdiction of the Head Master. The inclusion of one thing would be the exclusion of another, and in many respects there might be a clashing of authority between the Head Master and those who were practically his masters. It would be an unheard of thing to give a statutory power to a servant liable to dismissal. If a clause were prepared and submitted he would consider it; but he could not undertake to do anything more on the part of the Government. LORD LYTTELTON asked, whether the Government would consider the principle free from details? LORD OVERSTONE pointed out the extreme importance of maintaining the influence and position of the Head Master THE EARL OF DEVON said, he could not help concurring with his noble Friend (Lord Lyttelton) that both for the sake of securing the best possible man for Head Master and for the efficient carrying on of the School, it was desirable that some attempt should be made to carry out the recommendations of the Commissioners upon this point. LORD LYTTELTON said, he was willing to leave the general powers to the Governing Body; but the Bill would work much better if certain things were left in the power of the Head Master. He would endeavour to embody his views in a new clause, and bring it up on the Report. THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH said, the Government could not assent to the proposal to leave the residuum of the powers not mentioned in the Bill to the Head Master. He did not know what would be the definition attempted by the noble Lord; but the Government would not, of course, be pledged to consider it. Motion (by Leave of the House) withdrawn. Clauses 14 and 15 agreed to. Clause 16 (Appointment of Commissioners). LORD LYTTELTON proposed to add two. names to the Commission - that of Canon Blakesley and Sir Roundell Palmer. Mr. Blakesley's name had been omitted from the clause in the House of Commons under a total misapprehension, and he had been treated with extreme injustice and want of consideration. As senior Tutor at Trinity College for some time, his name would have given weight to the Commission, and a great mistake had been committed in leaving out his name. No doubt the gentleman by whom he had been supplanted was able and competent; but he was not nearly so well known as Mr. |