DISTRICT CHURCH TITHES ACT AMEND MENT BILL-[BILL 246.] Bill considered in Committee (according to Order). (In the Committee.) Clause 1 (Sect. 9 of 28 & 29 Vict. c. 42 repealed). should, this being so, support the Motion Bill reported; as amended, considered; read the third time, and passed, with Amendments. WEST INDIES BILL-[BILL 124.] (Mr. Adderley, Mr. Sclater-Booth.) LORDS' AMENDMENT. ADJOURNED DEBATE. Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment [27th July] proposed to be made to the Amendment made by The Lords to the West Indies Bill; and which Amendment was, MR. WALPOLE said, the effect of the Bill would be to divide the clergy of the Church of England into two classes rectors and vicars. Under the Church Building Acts a great variety of designations had been bestowed upon different bodies of the clergy, who were styled incumbents, perpetual curates, and so forth. This was found to be a great inconvenience, which the present Bill was intended to remove. There was, however, already in operation a clause of an Act of Parliament under which if a portion of the tithes were given to an incumbent he could, with the consent of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, be declared a rector or a vicar as the case might be. The 2nd clause of the present measure fully provided for the division of the clergy into the two classes of rectors and vicars, and he should therefore move the omission-instead thereof. of the 1st clause. MR. MONK regarded this as a most extraordinary attempt at legislation. His right hon. Friend who had moved the omission of the 1st clause seemed particularly anxious to undo all that had been done by the House of Lords. When the Bill was introduced into that House it consisted of a single clause, which was the second in the Bill as it now stood. The fact was that a compromise was come to. His right hon. Friend had not at all clearly explained the object of the 1st clause. Under the 9th section of the Act of 28 & 29 Vict. a clergyman who purchased even an infinitesimal amount of tithes might, with the assistance of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, become a rector. Indeed, he was credibly informed that a case had arisen in which the Commissioners were required to convert into a rector a perpetual curate who had purchased tithes which returned him an annual income of something under 2d. MR. POWELL said, he thought the duty of the House clearly was to consider the Bill on its merits with regard to what had been said in "another place." He To leave out the words "as such coadjutor, continue to act in the same manner as at present the words "and exercises episcopal functions as Archdeacon of Middlesex," in order to insert therein, continue to receive out of the Consolidated Fund the annual payment of two thousand pounds which has been hitherto made to him in part by the Bishop of Jamaica out of the stipend of three thousand pounds paid to the said Bishop from the Consolidated Fund under the before recited Acts, and in part out of the stipend appropriated to his Archdeaconry of Middlesex out of the Consolidated Fund, under the said Acts: payment no payment shall be made to him out of Provided, That during his receipt of such annual the Consolidated Fund in respect of the Archdeaconry of Middlesex,"—(Mr. Russell Gurney,) Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of The Lords' Amendment." Debate resumed. MR. AYRTON said, he hoped the Secretary of the Treasury would support him in objecting to a proposal which, if adopted, would form a very bad precedent. The House was asked to make a new grant out of the Consolidated Fund by way of Amendment to an Amendment of the other House without any Resolution having been come to on the subject by the House in Committee. The clause, if amended as proposed, would give to the Bishop of Kingston £800 as his own salary and £1,200 from the Consolidated Fund as agent of the Bishop of Jamaica, so that the proposal actually suggested the appropriation of £1,200 out of the Consolidated Fund. The Act under which the payments were to be made was the 5 & 6 Vict., which empowered Her Majesty to devote such sums from the Consolidated Fund as she deemed necessary to carry out any arrangement which might the rules of the House to take advantage of the technical fact that an Amendment had been made by the other House to insert a fresh provision which could by no possibility have any connection with that Amendment? be come to for the spiritual welfare of the | in any way connected with the subject of people of Jamaica. It appeared to be a the Lords' Amendment; and he desired to new charge upon the Consolidated Fund know, whether it was in accordance with for the benefit of a particular individual, and such a charge ought not to be created except in Committee. The proposition ought not, he believed, now to be made, and he trusted, therefore, that the Lords' Amendment, which was a very harmless one, would be agreed to. It was harmless because it could never come into operation, and he hoped, therefore, that the House, out of compliment to the other branch of the Legislature, would agree to the Amendment as sent down. MR. GILPIN said, he hoped the time would soon come, and he should see it, when the question of Bishops' salaries would occupy as little time in that House as the payment of salaries to Dissenting ministers and of funds for the erection of chapels. With regard to the question now before the House, he should vote against the proposed alteration of the Lords' Amendment, for the reason that if it did not actually create a new charge upon the Consolidated Fund, it would create a charge for an additional life. THE ATTORNEY GENERAL said, that by the patent under which his appointment was made the Bishop of Kingston was not merely appointed coadjutor to the Bishop of Jamaica. For his duties as coadjutor to the Bishop of Jamaica he received £1,200 a year out of the salary of the Bishop of Jamaica, in addition to the sum of £400, formerly £800, which he received as the Archdeacon of Middlesex. But he was also empowered on the death of the Bishop of Jamaica to perform the episcopal duties of that See until a successor had been appointed, consecrated, and had arrived in the diocese. The whole object of the Amendment now proposed was that the Bishop of Kingston should, in such an event, receive the same emoluments as were now given to the Archdeacon of Middlesex. He could see no objection to this proposal, and should therefore support it. MR. M'LAREN said, that the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Russell Gurney) proposed to strike out part of the Lords' Amendment by which a pecuniary saving would be effected. The right hon. and learned Gentleman purposed to strike out that part of the Amendment which conveyed the intention of the other House, and to put in something entirely different in its nature, and not MR. AYTOUN submitted that they had no power to do what was proposed by the Amendment. Power was given to grant a salary out of the Consolidated Fund to some person holding a particular office and provided for under the Act of Parliament; but was it competent to them to transfer the salary to some totally different office? MR. SPEAKER: A Question was put to me on this point last night, and I made answer to it that it appears to me, so far as the privileges of the House are concerned, the question turns upon whether there is any new charge upon the Consolidated Fund, and while the Bill proposes to relieve the Consolidated Fund of £20,000 this Amendment would relieve it of £18,000 only. The question of the merits of the Bill is a matter for the consideration of the House. The hon. Member for Edinburgh (Mr. M'Laren) has asked me whether in point of form this Amendment can be put? The question is whether it is relevant, and it appears to me that it is relevant to the Amendment of the Lords. I do not mean to say it is not a somewhat complicated question. I adhere to the substance of the opinion I gave last night that, as there is no new charge upon the Consolidated Fund, therefore I think it is a matter more to be decided by the House on its merits than by any opinion from the Chair. Question put. The House divided:-Ayes 30; Noes 29: Majority 1. Lords' Amendment agreed to. House adjourned at half after Five o'clock. that any practical inconvenience arose from the present arrangement. THE POST OFFICE AND CIRCULAR DELIVERY COMPANIES.-QUESTION. MR. M'LAREN said, he would beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether the Treasury have yet decided in favour of allowing the Post Office to carry printed matter, not exceeding one ounce in weight, for one halfpenny; and, whether the Treasury will give orders not to take any further legal proceedings to impede the action of Circular Delivery Companies until after the meeting of the new Parliament? THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, in reply, that the subject of the first part of the hon. Member's Question was now under consideration, but no decision had been come to upon it at present in consequence of the Post Office officials having had their time so greatly taken up by the Electric Telegraphs Bill. He trusted, however, that very shortly some decision upon the point would be arrived at. With regard to the latter part of the hon. Member's Question, he could only say that a case had been stated for the opinion of a Court of Law with respect to the The House met at a quarter before Four legality of the operation of the Circular of the clock. ARMY-ORDNANCE SURVEY MAPS. QUESTION. MR. HARVEY LEWIS said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, Why the Public cannot be supplied with the Maps of the Ordnance Survey, as at this time no complete copies of all the Maps can be procured in London; and, why arrangements are not made by which complete sets and portions of the Ordnance Survey publications can be obtained by the Public and the Trade through the Stationery Office, under whose direction the Maps and publications of the Geological Ordnance Survey are satisfactorily issued? SIR JOHN PÅKINGTON said, in reply, that, on account of the bulky nature of the maps, there might be some difficulty in obtaining them, though he had never himself experienced the slightest difficulty. Ile believed there was no place in England where any portion of the Ordnance Survey might not at once be obtained. It was now under consideration whether it would be convenient to supply them through the Stationery Office, but he was not aware s.] VOL. CXCIII. [THIRD SERIES. Delivery Company, and therefore it would be unadvisable to express any opinion upon the subject at present. ARMY-COLONELS IN THE ROYAL ARTILLERY.—QUESTION. MR. SERJEANT GASELEE said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for of the full Colonels of the Royal Artillery War, Whether it is intended to allow any who have sent in their names for retirement, to have immediate benefit by the sum voted for them on Thursday July 16th? SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, in reply, that the matter was under consideration, and he hoped to be able in a few days to inform the gallant officers interested in it of the decision which had been come to. ARMY-SENIOR STAFF OFFICERS OF PENSIONERS.-QUESTION. MR. WYLD said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, If any consideration has been given to the grievances of the Senior Staff Officers of Pensioners, to which his attention was called during the last Session of Parliamentnamely, that the Memorandum, dated 3 Q War Office 15th March 1842, promised | even had he received a longer notice, it that their situations should be considered would have been impossible for him to as "Full Pay" appointments; but some time after they accepted these situations on the faith of this promise a regulation was made that the holders of them should have the inadequate step of Brevet Major, with the addition only of two shillings per day to their pay, and that this limitation of advancement and the limitation of their retiring allowances inflicts a serious injury upon the Senior Staff Officers of Pensioners, many of whom left their regiments, and some of them paid back the regulated difference between half and full pay to hold these appointments; and whether he is disposed to consider the "Full Pay" appointment of the Senior Staff Officer of Pensioners as entitling them to a gradual increase of rank, pay, and retiring allowance? SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, in reply, that he could not think the Senior Staff Officers of Pensioners had any cause of complaint, seeing that considerable advantages in the way of promotion had been extended to them. The best answer he could give to the hon. Member was to state that almost every day he was receiving applications for appointments on the Pensioners' Staff, which were greatly coveted by military men. On the other hand, however, in consequence of the arrangements now in progress with respect to the Army of Reserve, their labours had greatly increased, and he would take into consideration how far those additional labours entitled them to extra pay. ARMY-PREACHING IN THE ARMY. QUESTION. MR. KINNAIRD said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, If his attention has been called to a Military General Order, said to have been issued by the General Commanding-in-Chief in Canada, forbidding Officers to preach to or to teach the men of their Regiments, and in consequence of which two Officers of the Rifle Brigade had sent in papers resigning their Commissions; and, whether he had any objection to lay a Copy of such General Order on the Table of the House? SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, he regretted that the hon. Member had been unable to give him longer Notice of his Question, to the subject of which his attention was called for the first time by the hon. Member's Notice yesterday; but give any definite answer with respect to a General Order said to have been issued by the Commander-in-Chief of Her Majesty's Forces in Canada. He found upon inquiry that in May last a Letter was received by the Field Marshal Commanding-in-Chief in this country from Sir Charles Windham, the Commander-in-Chief in Canada, bringing under his attention the fact that certain officers in the Rifle Brigade were in the habit of preaching in the public churches, and that complaints had been made to the Commander-in-Chief with respect to that practice, which in some instances had led to what he was going to call scandals and to considerable excitement. The Commander-in-Chief in Canada had ordered the officers in question to return to their regimental quarters at Ottawa, and they were prohibited from continuing the practice of preaching in the churches. The practice appeared, however, to have revived, and complaints were again made to the Commander-inChief in Canada, which were likewise sent home by Sir Charles Windham, with a request that he should be informed as to the course he should take. By the direction of the Field Marshal Commandingin-Chief a Letter of a most temperate and moderate character was written by the Adjutant General in answer to those complaints, which stated that he had no wish to discourage officers from preaching to their men, but strongly discouraging the practice of officers attempting to go beyond the fair limits of their vocation by preaching in churches. He was only aware of the retirement of the two officers referred to from the Notice of the hon. Member. Not long ago similar prohibitions were issued at Winchester and Portsmouth, where complaints had been made of practices of the same kind. WEIGHTS AND MEASURES. OBSERVATIONS. MR. THOMAS HUGHES, who had given Notice to call attention to the inaccurate state of the Standard of Weight and Measure, and to the present system of enforcing the law, whereby half the penalties are paid to the informer, said, he was sorry to have to call the attention of the House to so important a question as that of the standards of weights and measures at this period of the Session, as of course he could not expect that the House would go into the matter thoroughly. But those who were interested in the question as he was-for the county of Surrey was unfortunately the first in the Returns of penalties for the use of inaccurate weights and measures-had hoped that the Government would have been able to bring in a measure this Session, and had therefore put off calling attention to this subject earlier. He believed that the Government were waiting for the Report of the Standards Commission; but as they would, he supposed, have the whole question under their consideration in the Recess, there were several points which he wished to call their attention to. First, as to the present custom of giving half the penalties to the informer. Nothing could be worse than such a system, as would be clear to the House by the case of his own borough. In Lambeth there were two Inspectors of weights and measures, one of whom was lately a common police-constable, and the other in an equally humble condition in life. These officers were paid a fixed salary of £250 each with half the penalties in addition; and these penalties amounted in the past year to upwards of £1,200, so that the salaries of these officers had been more than doubled by the penalties. It was well to pay such officers a proper salary, but not well to make their salary depend upon the amount of fines inflicted. Then there was the question of tribunals. The present one was eminently unsatisfactory. In Surrey, for instance, no register of convictions was kept by the magistrates, so that there could be no really satisfactory evidence as to the degree of guilt of any person who was summoned. In illustration of the way in which this branch of the law was administered, he might state that in one day at Islington upwards of 120 cases were got through in four hours and a half. On inquiry it was found that in nearly every case the same fine of 58. had been inflicted, and in no less than twenty-six of the cases the defendants had been fined, for having weights which were actually heavier than the standards. Then as to the standards themselves. Before the Act of 1866 the Board of Trade standards had not been verified for forty years. By the present law they must be verified once in ten years; but this was much too seldom. He thought it should be done at least every six years. The secondary standards, which were in constant use, were to be verified once in five years. But if he was rightly informed, the wear and tear of the standards would make a difference of a drachm a year. Surely, therefore, the standards in ordinary use should be verified every year. The method of setting the standards right, too, seemed to be very objectionable. He had seen only yesterday a standard weight in which the adjustment had been made by soldering a piece of lead roughly on to the bottom of the weight. Then, again, the Act of 1866 empowered Her Majesty in Council to settle what amount of variation might be tolerated between the standards at the Board of Trade and the secondary standards. He did not know whether any scale of variation had been fixed by Order in Council, but if it had, it ought to be extended to the variation between the secondary standards and those of tradesmen. If the Vice President of the Board of Trade could give some information as to the amount of variation which was tolerated at present, it would be interesting, he thought, to the House, and certainly to himself, representing as he did an important trading constituency in the south of London. The same amount of variation which was at present tolerated between the Board of Trade standard and the secondary standards ought clearly to be sanctioned between the secondary standard and the weights and measures used by dealers throughout the country. He would also suggest that the Government should enforce the publication of the names of persons convicted, with the particulars of their offence. In almost all cases no publication was made either of the names of the persons convicted or of the circumstances of the conviction. There was no knowing whether weights were a drachm or an ounce too light, or whether, as in some cases, they were too heavy. It would certainly benefit the honest trader if, in every instance, it were obligatory on the tribunal imposing the penalty to publish the circumstances of the case; and some system might also be devised under which a mark should be fixed on the shops of all deliberate offenders. If these points were attended to he thought the Government might easily frame a measure which would protect the public and the honest tradesman. At present the only persons who profited by the law and the way it was carried out were the dishonest tradesmen. He hoped the Government would consider the question in the Recess. |