perienced from inability to obtain employ- a pension which barely kept body and soul ment. There were a vast number of together, and a good conduct medal. In situations in the Post Office, Customs, Ex- some few cases a commission was also cise, and other Government Departments offered. But in the present constitution of which might be well filled by discharged the army a commission given to a nonsoldiers. The Postmaster General had commissioned officer was a very question30,000 persons employed under him, and able advantage, and he should be very some of the other Departments were equally sorry to see the constitution of the army extensive. Ample opportunity was thus materially altered. That being the case, afforded for carrying out the plan he pro- he looked to the employment of discharged posed, and the adoption of such a system soldiers in the various grades of the public would be a great blessing to men dis- service for which they were qualified as charged from the army. They had pro- one of the greatest inducements that could vided first-rate schools and reading rooms be held out. In some of the public Defor soldiers; but the troops did not fully partments he was aware there was a great avail themselves of these advantages, be- objection to the employment of soldiers as cause they did not see of what use it clerks. He had received several letters would be to them to do so. If, however, from persons employed in those Departthey knew that they would have a chance ments urging objections; but he could not at the end of their service of obtaining a concur in them, because he knew that Government appointment they would fit many of the discharged soldiers were exthemselves for such a position. He sin- cellent penmen and accountants, very mecerely trusted that some effort would be thodical, and, he believed, quite as capable made to hold out an inducement to soldiers of discharging the duties in civil Departto fit themselves to hold such situations. ments as the ordinary third class clerks. At present one of the greatest checks to He hoped that the system of employing any such employment was the age which them which had been commenced in the the Civil Service Commissioners had fixed War Office would be elaborated in other as the limit for applicants entering the Departments; for there was no doubt that service, and when men applied they were if it became known that such posts would told that they were just beyond the age at be filled up by military men, it would be a which they could enter the service. If great inducement not only to good behathis rule was modified, and a portion of the viour in the army, but to a superior class minor appointments, as messengers, porters, of men entering the service. and third class clerks, given to discharged soldiers, a great boon would be conferred upon that class, and he believed that great benefit would also accrue to the State. Amendment proposed, To leave out from the word "That" to the -instead thereof. CAPTAIN VIVIAN cordially endorsed all that the hon. and gallant Baronet had said on this matter. Encouragement to the soldiers in this way was the principal mode in which they could hope to induce a better class of men to enlist in the army. Men in the army were now offered only the inducement of promotion to the noncommissioned ranks, with the addition, after a great many years' good service, of LORD ELCHO said, he would beg to remind the House that when the subject of the purchase of commissions in the army was before the House, he had read a letter from a sergeant in his own regiment, pointing out that the greatest boon to the soldier would be to offer him employment in the Civil Service after his term of military service had expired. He was far from implying that the duties performed by civil clerks were not admirably performed, but he was perfectly certain, from the training which men received in the army, and from what he had seen of military clerks at Wimbledon and Hythe, that they would perform the duties equally well, and their employment in that capacity would not only be most economical to the State, but would add to the efficiency of the army by attracting to it the best men in the country. He saw no reason why the superior clerkships should not be open to retired officers. As regarded the men, giving commissions was no inducement; but it would be a great inducement to offer situations in the public service from £50 to £150 a year. In France and Prussia the duties of the War Department were performed entirely by military men, and he did not see why the example of those countries could not be followed in this. He hoped, therefore, that with either party in power, the Government would turn their attention to this question, as he believed that not only efficiency in the army but economy in the public service would result from elaborating the scheme of the hon. and gallant Baronet. COLONEL BARTTELOT said, the thanks of the army were due to the hon. and gallant Member for Berkshire (Sir Charles Russell) for bringing this subject forward, because there was an acknowledged difficulty on the part of soldiers, even when discharged with the best character, in obtaining employment of any kind. In the course of last week a soldier formerly in his own regiment, who possessed admirable business qualifications, and had been discharged with a first class character, had come to him in a state of absolute starvation and had implored him to procure him some employment. If the proposition of the hon. and gallant Member were assented to, it would prove one of the greatest boons that could be conferred upon the non-commissioned officers and the privates of the army, who at the present time formed a very superior class of men. With respect to the civilians generally we might suppose that it had been judiciously arranged, and how far it could be modified in the case of persons who had served in the army was a very nice question. It was not only a question as to the discharged soldiers, but also a question as to what would be fair to civilian candidates. So far as prepossession was concerned, there was no proposal he should look upon with greater favour than that of the hon. and gallant Baronet. He thought it would be well worth the while of the Government to take measures for a careful review of most of the lower branches of the Civil Service to see how far it would be possible to make them the means of affording an honourable and useful career for discharged soldiers and non-commissioned officers. As regarded the effect of such appointments. on the composition of the army, and the inducements they would offer to enlist, that was a very large question, which went even to the extent of the term of service in the army. It was possible, if the House should see fit to carry out the view supported by men of great weight, of introducing a shorter term of service in the army, that it might greatly facilitate the views of the hon. and gallant Baronet. He only touched the surface of a question which he thought well worthy of examination to its very root and foundation. It would not be difficult to suggest the means at any rate of a preliminary examination. A commission would not be desirable, but if the Government were disposed to appoint a mixed official committee of practical men, including military men and an intelligent officer of the Treasury, to make an investigation, the result though not necessarily final would be useful; because it was not to be expected or desired that rapid progress should be made. He suggested this as a means of breaking ground in a direction that was of great importance, and he joined in acknowledging the services of those hon. Gentlemen who had brought the matter before the House. MR. GLADSTONE said, he presumed it was not the intention of the hon. and gallant Baronet to press his Motion upon the House for present acceptance, as it would be a great mistake to endeavour to bind the judgment of the House or of the Government with regard to the contents of such a Motion. If that was the intention, he could not concur in the Motion now being put; but, subject to that reservation, he could not help saying how much justice he thought there was in the general desire that had been expressed by the hon. and gallant Baronet. It was, however, a very large subject. He confessed he thought it desirable that a larger scope should be given to the consideration of this subject. GENERAL PERCY HERBERT said, he which was by no means free from difficulty, was not sanguine about such a scheme inThe right hon. Gentleman had spoken of ducing a different class of men to enlist; the barrier of age. Now, that barrier was but he believed it would be valuable in one which had not been fixed precipitately inducing men in the army to behave thembut really did represent in a great degree selves, and to educate themselves so as to the result of the experience of the autho-be qualified for appointments in the Civil rities in the Civil Service Departments themselves. Now, he was by no means disposed to say that no modifications should take place with reference to this barrier. Service on their discharge. Where soldiers were employed in some of the Departments at the Horse Guards he believed that the duties were performed most satisfactorily, and with a great saving of expense to the country. Within his own knowledge, there were two clerks in a public office receiving salaries between them of £500 a year to do the duties which any ordinary clerk could discharge efficiently for £120, and which he knew a discharged soldier, of excellent character and abilities, would be delighted to perform equally well at 5s. a day. MR. ALDERMAN LUSK said, he should support the Motion. He considered that the Government did not look after discharged soldiers as they ought to do. He deemed it desirable that Government should endeavour to employ to the end of their lives men who had served out their time in the army. GENERAL DUNNE said, that about ten years ago he brought the question under the attention of the House, and the difficulty with which he had been met was the age before which men were required to enter the Civil Service. But he thought they ought not for a moment to contemplate reducing the term of service in the army for the purpose of carrying out the scheme. In the War Department discharged soldiers were specially qualified for employment in consequence of the peculiar training they had undergone. COLONEL SYKES said, the scheme was necessary to make service in the army popular. With regard to the question of age, he would point out that as men generally entered the army at eighteen for twenty years' service, when they were discharged they were, as a rule, in good health and quite able to discharge their duties in any Government situation to which they might be appointed. His experience of soldiers taken from the ranks for civil employments in India had given him the very highest opinion of the qualifications of the men who would be eligible for the public service. He trusted, therefore, that, as a matter of economy, policy, and justice, the scheme would be carried out. SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, he thought that the hon. and gallant Baronet the Member for Berkshire (Sir Charles Russell) had taken a very judicious course in the interest of the soldier in pressing the question on the consideration of the House. He could not doubt that the more extensive adoption of the principle of employing discharged soldiers of good character in the Civil Service, would be a great encouragement to good conduct in the ranks of the army and a legitimate reward to those who left the service with good characters. He VOL. CXCIII. [THIRD SERIES.] had been referred to as a witness, because it was in his Department that the experiment had been most extensively tried. The object of the hon. and gallant Baronet was to elicit from the Government some declaration in favour of a more extensive adaptation of that principle. It was impossible, however, for him to say how far the Government might be disposed to adopt the principle, or how far the heads of the different Departments might be inclined to apply it. The hon. and gallant Baronet had under-rated the number of soldiers employed in the Civil Service in saying there were only thirty-five. SIR CHARLES RUSSELL explained that he had said, or, at any rate, meant to say, that only thirty-five of the Corps of Commissionaires had been employed in Government situations. He did not refer to the employment of soldiers in the War Department, beyond appealing to the right hon. Baronet to make a statement on the subject. SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, he was glad to have elicited that explanation, because it would be undesirable that an impression should go forth that only thirtyfive soldiers were employed. He held in his hand a statement of the ages at which soldiers were taken into the public service as messengers in the several Departments, employment which he was happy to say was not limited to the army, but had also been extended to the naval service. In the War Department no less than thirty-three old soldiers were employed, and he was glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Lancashire (Mr. Gladstone) express a general concurrence in the propriety of such appointments, for they not only conferred a boon upon the well-conducted soldier, but also tended very much to the economy of the public service. There were no doubt many duties discharged by clerks in the public offices for which soldiers upon leaving the army would be unfit, but on the other hand, there were many functions for which they were well suited, and they had performed such functions with entire satisfaction in the Department where he was best able to form a judgment. He therefore saw no reason why the same system should not be introduced in the other Departments. LORD HOTHAM said, that as the system proposed was one which had been recommended by a Royal Commission over which he presided some nine or ten years ago, it was natural he should take an interest in M MR. CLIVE: The delay, where there has been delay in London, has been entirely caused by the necessity for several of the Commissioners sitting in Dublin, there to get up the statistics. The Report has been completed, and it is not necessary for me to go into the subjects that have been investigated and the subjects that have not been investigated; for none re it. His hon. and gallant Friend (Sir | part of the Session, has not been presented Charles Russell) had every reason to be before this; is it intended to present the satisfied with the discussion. Several Report in such time as to admit of its Members had given an opinion favourable being printed and circulated amongst the to the object he had in view, and although Members of the present House of Comthe right hon. Member for South Lanca- mons? shire (Mr. Gladstone) took, as was natural and proper for him to do, a Treasury view of the subject, yet, at the same time, the right hon. Gentleman looked at it with the greatest possible fairness, and gave an opinion favourable to the general principle of the proposal. The Secretary of State for War had also stated that the thing worked well in the War Office, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would en-main to be investigated. The Schedules deavour to enlist the sympathy of his Colleagues in favour of doing something in the same way in the Departments over which they presided. He was not one of those who expected that they could very materially change the condition of the men who entered the army; but he thought that by holding out inducements of this kind they might make soldiers better conducted, and thus improve the discipline of the army and increase its efficiency. MR. H. BAILLIE said, he was glad the question had been brought before the House. It was the abominable practice which prevailed on both sides of the House of placing all the small situations in the gift of the Secretary of the Treasury at the disposal of Members of the House, for distribution among their constituents that prevented the employment of deserving men of the class referred to. He believed that among the many thousands of persons in the employment of the Post Office not one discharged soldier was to be found, although there were many quite capable of discharging the duties. He trusted the Government would take the matter into their serious consideration. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. IRISH CHURCH COMMISSION, QUESTION. SIR JOHN GRAY said, he would beg to ask the hon. Member for Hereford, What progress has been made with the inquiry entrusted to the Irish Church Commissioners; has the inquiry been concluded, and, if not, what subjects have been investigated, and what yet remain to be investigated; if the inquiry has been concluded, why the Report, which the House was led to expect would be presented in the early of this Report-the draft of which I hold in my hand-are very voluminous and complicated, and require extensive examination and close revision. That examination and revision have been going on within the last few weeks in Dublin. That accounts for the Report not being issued, and there is reason to hope that in less than a fortnight the Report will be in the hands of Members. Two more sittings are all that will be necessary; the Commissioners will be in London to-morrow, and in a fortnight from that time I have reason to expect the Report and Schedules will be presented to hon. Members. In reply to Sir JOHN GRAY, MR. CLIVE added: The Report has not been conclusively adopted, and there must be one or two more sittings of the Commissioners, but there is hardly any thing to be done. MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE: Has any fresh inquiry been taken up by the Commissioners within the last two months that has tended to prolong their labours? MR. CLIVE: I am not aware that any thing new has taken place since that time. The delay, as I have already stated, is almost entirely due to the voluminous nature of the Schedules. THE NEW COURTS OF JUSTICE. MOTION FOR A SELECT COMMITTEE. MR. GOLDSMID: Mr. Speaker-Sir, in rising to call attention to the recent appointment of Architects for the New Public Buildings in the Metropolis I make no apology, as the question has been already considered in "another place," and as the buildings, when completed, will either be amongst the greatest eyesores or the greatest ornaments of the metropolis. It to compete one subsequently retired; so that eleven actually entered the lists. This matter settled, the Treasury issued Instructions, which had been most carefully prepared by the Commission, and which entered minutely into all important details. Therein it is laid down that "The arrangement of the Courts and Offices is of vital moment; on it mainly depends the success or failure of their concentration, and its importance cannot be over-estimated."-[Sec. 21, p. 7.] Further, they state at Sec. 41, p. 12, that "The chief points to be kept constantly in view, and to be treated as superseding, so far as they may conflict, all considerations of architectural effect, are the accommodation to be provided, and est degree to facilitate the despatch and the accuthe arrangements to be adopted, so as in the greatrate transaction of the law business of the country." And Sec. 54 that— "The comparative cost of carrying out each design will be an important element in determining the competition.' is well therefore that the House of Commons should know what is going on; it is well it should consider the application of the public money, and should see that faith has been kept with the competing architects. An announcement was made in The Times a few days ago that Mr. Street had been appointed architect to the New Law Courts, Mr. Barry to the National Gallery, Mr. Scott to the continuation and completion of the Public Offices in Downing Street, and Mr. Waterhouse to the new erections at South Kensington. Last year I brought the result of the competition for the National Gallery to the notice of the House; now I desire to direct attention to that for the Law Courts. The history of the proceedings with regard to them is shortly this By the Courts of Justice Building Act 1865, the duty of superintending the building was assigned to the Treasury with the advice and assistance of certain Commissioners who were appointed in the same year, and who were a mixed body some fifty in number. The next step was that in February 1866, the Treasury, with the consent of the Commission appointed five Judges of Design, Sir Alexander Cockburn, Sir Roundell Palmer, Mr. Gladstone, Sir William Stirling-Maxwell, and Mr. Cowper. But at the same time the Commission laid down this condition-that "the plans ultimately adopted should receive the final confirmation of the Commission by the signature of the Chairman being attached to them when the contracts should be entered into." And this condition was "The design of Mr. Barry was the best in confirmed by a Treasury Minute, dated regard to plan and distribution of the interior, December 23rd, 1865. Further, Messrs. and that the design of Mr. Street was the best in Shaw and Pownall, surveyors, were ap-regard to merit as an architectural composition." pointed by the Commission to report upon the designs, and to see whether they complied with the Instructions as to internal arrangement, ventilation, access, &c., &c. At a much later period those two gentlemen were added to the number of Judges; in fact, it was after they had prepared their Report. Another surveyor (Mr. Gardiner) was named to test the estimates of cost given by the competing architects. Such, then, shortly were the arrangements made to judge of the designs. The next question to consider is what were the conditions of the competition? The Judges of Design decided that it should be limited to six architects whom they named; but by a Resolution of the House of Commons the number was increased to twelve. Of the twelve requested And finally it is declared that each unsuccessful competitor is to receive £800, and that the successful one is to be employed to erect the building. Everything in these Instructions appears so careful and accurate that one might hope that there could be no difficulty in deciding clearly the relative positions of the contending architects. But the result did not prove this to be the case; for on the 30th July, 1867, Mr. Cowper, on behalf of the Judges, informed the First Commissioner of Works that Thereupon Lord John Manners consulted the Commission, who recommended him to refer the matter back to the Judges of Design as they had decided without considering the question of cost, and before receiving Mr. Gardiner's Report. This advice was followed; but the Judges replied that Mr. Gardiner's Report contained nothing to affect their previous decision. In accordance with a recommendation of the Commission, the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown was then taken upon the points arising under the original Instructions in consequence of the double award, to which several of the architects had objected on the ground that they had been invited to compete against each other singly, but not against any two conjointly. The Attorney General held that, as no competitor had gained |