impossible to conduct and finally execute the winding-up of such cases without the aid of some exceptional power unknown to the Common Law and inapplicable to ordinary cases. As the Bill was to be confined to the peculiar cases referred to, it ought, in his opinion, to receive their Lordships'

assent.

Motion agreed to; Bill read 2 accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

PARLIAMENTARY REFORMREPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE (IRELAND) BILL-(No. 176.) (The Lord Privy Seal.)

SECOND READING.

THE EARL OF MALMESBURY, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, I believe your Lordships will not expect that I shall now enter into any lengthened explanation of its provisions. I need only remind your Lordships that in the year 1850 Parliament had made great progress in the reform of the Irish representation, while no corresponding measure has been passed until last Session for this country. The Bill will therefore make very little alteration It will leave the in the Irish franchise. county franchise unchanged at its present amount of £12, and it will lower the borough franchise from £8 to £4. This

hold suffrage to all who pay rates in boroughs in Ireland-for in Ireland those persons whose houses are worth less than £4 are not liable to the payment of the rate, which is paid by the lessor. The provisions with respect to the county franchise and the borough franchise are the two main points in the measure. I propose that your Lordships should into Committee on the Bill on Monday next.

JUDGMENTS EXTENSION BILL. (The Lord Chelmsford.) (No. 160.) SECOND READING. LORD CHELMSFORD, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, that the object of the measure, which was to render the judgments or decrees of certain Courts in England, Scotland, and Ire land effectual in all parts of the United Kingdom. At present, if a creditor re-arrangement will practically give housecovered a judgment in one part of the United Kingdom, and the debtor withdrew to another part, the judgment could not be made effectual; but the creditor was compelled, if he wished to follow his debtor, to commence a fresh action, and obtain another judgment in that part of the kingdom to which the debtor had retired. Prior to the year 1857, several Bills were introduced into the other House to alter this unsatisfactory state of things; but all those measures were rejected in consequence of a fear prevalent among the Irish Members that the jurisdiction of the Irish Courts EARL GRANVILLE said, he thought would be unduly interfered with. No the noble Earl might have given them change had been attempted since 1857 some further explanations with respect until the present Session, when the present to the Bill, and more particularly in Bill was brought into the House of Commons, and referred to a Select Committee, among the Members of which were the late and the present Attorney General for Ireland, and the late and the present Lord Advocate. Ultimately, it passed the lower House without any division at all.

Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a." (Lord Chelmsford.)

THE LORD CHANCELLOR said, he saw no objection to the measure, which would really tend to consolidate the three different portions of the kingdom by making a judgment obtained in one enforcible into the other two.

Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

go

Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2*." (The Lord Privy Seal.)

reference to their abandonment of that doctrine on the subject of the "hard and fast line" on which they had insisted in dealing with the subject of Reform in this country. But their Lordships might enter into the general subject, if they should think proper, on the Motion for going into Committee on Monday next.

Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accor the Whole House on Tuesday next. dingly, and committed to a Committee of

House adjourned at a quarter past Eight o'clock, to Thursday next, half past Ten o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Tuesday, June 30, 1868.

MINUTES. PUBLIC BILLS — Resolutions reported-Inland Revenue Acts. Ordered-Fairs (Metropolis); Inland Revenue. First Reading-Fairs (Metropolis) * [205]. Second Reading-Military at Elections (Ireland) [95], negatived; Municipal Corporations (Metropolis) [105], negatived; Lunatic Ayslums (Ireland) Accounts Audit* [184] Libel (Ireland) [199]: Turnpike Trusts Arrangement [200]; Colonial Governors' Pensions Act Amendment [202]. Committee Revenue Officers Disabilities Removal [76]; Larceny and Embezzlement [157] R.P.; Assignees of Marine Policies [147]; Burials (Ireland) [5]; Railway Companies (Ireland) Advances [177]; Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Supplemental (No. 2) [195]; Medway Regulation Act Continuance [196]; Prisons (Scotland) Administration Acts Amendment (re-comm.) [197]; Bankruptcy Act (1861) Amendment [145].

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*

*

detained for 200 days and upwards were very special cases. In some of them the prisoners were insane, in others unwell, and in others the cases were attended with peculiar difficulty. But no innocent person had suffered, and all the prisoners were convicted, except one, who was found to have been insane. With reference to the other class of cases included in the Question, he might explain that the Assize or Circuit Courts were held in Scotland, in the provinces, once in six months, except in Glasgow, where there was also a winter assize. Of course there must be detention to await the circuit; but Scotland was not in a different position from England in that respect. Further, the course of proceeding was just what it had always been. In serious

cases the trials occasionally were removed to Edinburgh; but it would cause very great expense to the country, great inconvenience to witnesses, and also occupy the time of the Court more than was desirable, if all trials for criminal cases were held in Edin

Report-Revenue Officers' Disabilities Removal [76]; Assignees of Marine Policies [147-203]; burgh. There was, however, a proceeding Burials (Ireland) [5-204]; Railway Com- under the Scotch law by which it was companies (Ireland) Advances [177]; Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Supple-petent for a prisoner who was detained to mental (No. 2) [195]; Medway Regulation force on his trial if he was unwilling to Act Continuance [196]; Prisons (Scotland) wait for the circuit, so that not only in Administration Acts Amendment (re-comm.) bailable offences could he get out of prison [197]; Bankruptcy Act (1861) Amendment [145]. Considered as amended — University Elections (Voting Papers) [187]; Bank of Bombay [178]

Third Reading Curragh of Kildare* [192] New Zealand (Legislative Council) [185]; Consular Marriages [188]; Bank Holidays and Bills of Exchange [180], and passed. Withdrawn-Landed Property Improvement (Ireland)* [32].

COMMITTALS (SCOTLAND).

QUESTION.

SIR ROBERT ANSTRUTHER said, he wished to ask the Lord Advocate, Whether his attention has been directed to a Return made to this House dated 18th May 1868, No. 279, showing the number of Committals in Scotland for 1866-7, by which it appears that in sixteen cases 200 days and over, in sixty-six cases 150 days and over, and in 176 cases 100 days and over elapsed between the committal and the trial of prisoners; and, whether it is his intention to take any steps to insure the shortening of such serious delay in the administration of justice?

THE LORD ADVOCATE said, in reply, that the sixteen cases mentioned in the Question, in which the prisoners had been

on finding security, but in the case of offences that were not bailable he might take proceedings to force on his trial. As to the concluding part of the Question of the hon. Baronet, provisions were contained in the Justiciary Court Bill now before the House-and which he hoped would be passed this Session-that would greatly facilitate the trial of prisoners who pleaded guilty to the charges brought against them.

SIR ROBERT ANSTRUTHER asked, Whether the insane prisoners were insane when first imprisoned?

THE LORD ADVOCATE said, some of the prisoners were insane previous to apprehension, and others became insane afterwards. Persons who committed such crimes were often not in the most sane state of mind.

LOSS OF THE "GARONNE."
QUESTION.

ADMIRAL ERSKINE said, he wished to ask the Vice President of the Board of Trade (with reference to an inquiry lately held at Penzance into the loss of the steamer Garonne), Whether the Report of the inquiry published in the

England and Wales with respect to the instruction which they afforded to their cospiritual instruction of Roman Catholic religionists, not a single farthing was given prisoners was so unsatisfactory that the for the instruction of the Roman Catholic Government introduced and carried what prisoners. In the prison of Coldbath Fields was commonly known as a permissive Bill application had been made that, on Easter -namely, the Prison Ministers Act. That Sunday, opportunity might be given for measure made legal what was not legal be the celebration of the greatest solemnity fore, and gave ample power to magistrates of their Church; but a room was refused. to provide spiritual instruction for the pri- At last better treatment was given, but no soners under their care. Speakers in that clerk was allowed to give the responses of House, and on the platform, as well as the sacred office, till at length a Catholic writers in the public Press, frequently magistrate attended for the purpose; and quoted certain statistics as to the number afterwards a boy of ten years of age was of Roman Catholic prisoners in the larger allowed to perform the clerk's office. The towns of England, and sought to trace a Roman Catholic clergyman at Tothill connection between those statistics and the Fields did not ask for a single pound for teaching of his Church. Now, his answer his ministration, but had simply expressed to that was, that the authorities of the a wish that a lady, the daughter of a Peer gaols of those towns-or those, rather, and the wife of a Member of Parliament, who had control over them-were mainly might be allowed to play during the time responsible for the consequences which of Divine service. Permission was, howwere thus attributed to the doctrine and ever, refused; and the lady, who was a teaching of his Church. At present there woman of high spirit, waited on the visitwas by law in Ireland a Protestant and a ing justice and asked to be allowed to play Roman Catholic chaplain for every prison on Sundays for the benefit of the prison-a system which had been attended with ers, observing that his own daughter was the most beneficial results. In passing the allowed to attend in the gaol. Oh," rePrison Ministers Act for England and plied the magistrate, "my daughter is not Wales the Legislature expected that the the only lady who attends; there are three magistrates or other prison authorities or four others who come here." Did that, would take advantage of the measure and he should like to know, look like religious put its provisions into operation; but his equality? Was that levelling up" or complaint was that they had failed to do "levelling down?" Further still, it was so to any considerable extent; and thus a true that several priests had broken down great wrong was inflicted, not only on the with health shattered by the indignity and most helpless, and probably the most de contumely with which they were treated graded class of the community, but also by the prison authorities and officials. For upon society at large, and especially upon his own part he did not wish to see a single the ratepayers. In England and Wales farthing of the money which they received there were 119 gaols in which Protestant taken from the Protestant clergy. What chaplains were engaged, the aggregate of he was protesting against was the manner their salaries being £20,133; while Ca-in which the Roman Catholic clergyman tholic chaplains were only engaged in fif teen of these, and the whole amount paid to them was £1,255. It was a fact, further, that in addition to the £20,133 paid to Protestant chaplains there were addi-ple should not be told that while they comtional sums paid to assistants and Scripture readers, bringing up the total to nearly, if not quite, £30,000. In London, which, as the capital, gave the tone to the rest of the nation, there were on the 2nd of April this year 649 Roman Catholic prisoners in five gaols; and the Protestant clergymen attending those gaols were paid over £2,000 for their services in connection with them, besides the £500 or £600 which he had no doubt their assistants received. But, while the Protestant clergy were thus remunerated for the spiritual

was treated. The Government prisons were managed admirably, and he could not see why the same principle could not be adopted in all the gaols. These poor peo

mitted smaller offences they would not receive fair play in prison, but that as soon as they committed crimes which subjected them to penal servitude, then fair play would be extended to them. At the last meeting of the Board the Chairman said that everything necessary had been provided for the conduct of the Roman Catholic worship in the prison; the fact being, on the contrary, that the priest could not proceed with his duties until he had expended £120 out of his own pocket in the purchase of altar furniture, vestments, and

other things that were absolutely necessary passed in 1863 and 1865, had to a confor the conduct of Catholic worship. Ca- siderable_extent conceded the principle tholic clergymen who visited prisons were that the Roman Catholics had in view, by treated with studied indignity, and every- appointing Roman Catholic ministers to thing was done to discourage them. Pro- attend to members of their flock who were testants wished to be attended only by in gaol. This, however, had only been Protestant clergymen, and Catholics only done to a too limited extent. The principle by Catholic clergymen ; and if a Catholic had been acted upon in large and enchaplain attempted to interfere with the lightened towns like Preston, Liverpool, faith of a Protestant prisoner he should be and Manchester, where salaries had been expelled from the prison; but nothing of given to Roman Catholic ministers, and the kind ever happened. The good effects various steps taken to facilitate the inof allowing the visits of Catholic clergymen struction and reformation of the prisoners. to prisoners of their own persuasion were Under the former system Catholic prisoners seen by experience, as in the prison of the had to endure hardships of which gentleIsle of Wight; whereas when prisoners men, whether in or out of the House, had did not obtain spiritual consolation they no idea. They were exposed to great illwere committed and re-committed, and de- usage and oppression if they avowed themscended the hardened steep of crime. This selves Catholics, and temptations were held was a question also for the ratepayers, be- out to them to attend the Protestant ser cause persons committed over and over vice, with increased severities if they reagain to gaol occasioned a great expense fused. The Reports of Inspectors showed to the community; and perseverance in a that there was a striking improvement in system of mere punishment without im- the conduct of Roman Catholic prisoners provement would only add to the number in consequence of their being brought into of the dangerous classes of society, which communication with their priests; and it were the most costly classes of all. All was shown that in places where the discimeans of improvement should be adopted. pline of the prison had been very bad indeed They had been tried with admirable effect a complete reformation had taken place. in Ireland, and the result was that the It appeared from a Report in December, Irish Judges were going the circuits hav- 1866, that the chaplain at Parkhurst ing scarcely any crime to inquire into. Prison had interfered in reference to the Poverty and misery were the causes of the school for Roman Catholic children; a crimes committed by the poor Irish in system which he (Lord Edward Howard) London they were more exposed to temp- thought ought not to exist. It was too tation than any other class; and he im- bad that persons wishing to be reformed plored the House not to make crime deeper were not allowed the means of reformation, and darker by refusing the means of reli- thus increasing the expense on the rategious improvement. The matter was one payers of the country. The matter was which called for the vigorous action of Go- not so important in reference to the Provernment, instead of leaving it to a body testant Dissenters, because in many cases of magistrates, who were quite unfit for they did not object to attend the services the purpose, to sit in judgment as to the of the Church of England; but the Roman religion of 200,000,000 of the human race. Catholics refused the ministrations of the If the Prison Ministers Act were not made Protestant clergymen. He hoped that an compulsory, ten or a dozen years might appeal to the enlarged constituency would elapse before the law would be put into tend to afford a remedy to that state of active operation; and as he did not wish things of which he complained. In the to wait so long for such a result, he now, present Home Secretary they had a talent in the name of justice-in the name of the of administration and a vigour of action honour and character of that House-in that promised the best results, and he the name of fair play to the poor and op- trusted that the right hon. Gentleman pressed-in the name of civil and religious would give his earnest attention to the liberty-would move the Resolution of matter, and do what it was possible to do which he had given Notice. to redress a wrong and confer a benefit.

LORD EDWARD HOWARD seconded the Motion; and said that it was very gratifying to those who had laboured in this cause to find that the magistrates of the country generally, aided by the Acts

Motion made, and Question proposed, fusal or neglect of the authorities having control "That, in consequence of the persistent re over certain of the county and borough Prisons of Great Britain to put in operation the powers