our armaments, but also affected in no or- That was tantamount to saying that when dinary degree the expenditure of the coun- the public Departments stated their case try. But the manner in which the hon. he would not believe them. With reand gallant Member had brought that sub- ference to the price of guns good reasons ject before the House was a matter of could be given, but the hon. and gallant regret. He (Sir John Pakington) had Member never mentioned what was the come down to the House prepared to dis- particular gun of which he spoke, and it cuss the Motion which the hon. and must be remembered that there were endgallant Gentleman had placed upon the less varieties of guns. The hon. and galPaper, but greatly to his surprise the hon. lant Gentleman talked about Major Palliser and gallant Member had devoted a great and of the comparative prices of guns made part of his speech to a discussion of the in the public arsenals and by the private most minute details touching complicated trade. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman questions respecting the Government Manu- went into the subject with due care, he facturing Departments. They all knew the would find that in almost every instance state of transition in which they lived. the guns made at the public arsenals were Only a few years ago the largest gun in made at a cheaper and lower rate than the service was a 95-cwt. gun, not weigh- those of the private trade. But the hon. ing five tons, and now they had 22-ton and gallant Gentleman would not believe guns. There were all sorts of pending figures. However, he (Sir John Pakington) questions, involving an endless variety in maintained that until the balance-sheets construction with respect to cast-iron, came out and there had been an opportuwrought-iron, wrought-iron linings, steel nity of testing the accuracy of the figures guns, and various methods of rifling. All they must be accepted as correct. Having these were unsettled questions, and, in thus met that part of his hon. and gallant addition, there was the most hostile rivalry Friend's speech which he had no right to between the Government Manufacturing expect, he begged now to turn to what he Departments and outsiders, and endless had a right to expect from the Motion inventors contending that they had the which stood on the Paper in his name. power of providing a cheaper and more He was sorry his hon. and gallant Friend efficient gun. The speech of the hon. and had not been content to deal with it, for gallant Member might lead one to suppose it was a very large subject, involving three that he had been inspired by some of those different propositions, and on each of them outsiders and inventors. The hon. and he was prepared to state the course which gallant Gentleman had entered on this the Government intended to pursue. The discussion without any Notice whatever, first proposal of his hon. and gallant Friend and with a spirit which showed hostility was that we should have an annual stateto some extent, or, at all events, doubt ment laid upon the table of this House, with respect to the honesty of the public showing the quantity and value of each Departments. This course of proceeding description of stores in the possession of was hardly fair. The matter brought for- the troops or in the arsenals and storeward by the hon. and gallant Member was houses, the quantity issued and consumed one of great difficulty, and it was the duty during each year, and the re-placements of the Government to be impartial with in consequence of a change of pattern respect to it, and to take the line which or of the ordinary annual consumption. to the best of their judgment appeared The French Government had adopted the most conducive to the public interests. the plan of laying a very accurate stateFor his own part, he could say that he had ment before the Legislature of the state of no undue leaning to the Government Manu- their stores, and he was quite willing to facturing Departments. The hon. and gal- meet his hon. and gallant Friend by the lant Member began by stating that he had admission that it was most desirable to serious charges to make, in that case it have such a statement laid before the was his duty to have given distinct warn- House. The only objection he knew to ing of those charges; but the Motion such a statement was that he was afraid placed upon the Paper certainly did not it would be impossible to provide it withgive such warning. What was to be out some not inconsiderable expense in thought of the spirit in which the hon. the way of assistance in the Department. and gallant Member made the charges, But he would endeavour to ascertain-and when he declared that he had no faith in it could only be done accurately by exthe figures of the public Departments? perience-what the expense would be of

these manufacturing establishments? Were took upon themselves so to alter the these establishments to be removed from invention as to render it perfectly worthParliamentary control? Then again, if less. Thus, the rockets invented by Mr. these large Government establishments were to be placed on the same footing with private firms, were they to accept business from all customers that might come for goods, or were they to be restricted to supplying the requirements of the Govern-long a time in the various batteries that it ment? These were questions that required much consideration, and the Government would have to weigh the matter very carefully before it committed itself to the proposition of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, which affected not only the War Depart-possibility of the number of rounds sent ment but the Admiralty and Treasury De- being used in any campaign in that counpartments. Under these circumstances he try. He hoped that the matters alluded could not say that he was at once prepared to by his hon. and gallant Friend would to adopt the plan of the hon. and gallant be investigated, and that the Government Member, which would effect a complete would be prepared with some more satisrevolution in that branch of the public factory explanation. service to which it had relation-a revolution, however, that certainly held out great promise of improvement, but he was willing to submit the plan of the hon. and gallant Member to a joint Committee of the War Department, the Admiralty, and the Treasury, for them to inquire into the subject and report upon it. The hon. and gallant Member's first suggestion respecting a Return he thought should be adopted; his second plan, he had shown, was already carried out to a great extent; and with respect to his third plan he could assure the hon. and gallant Gentlemen that it should receive the most careful consideration.

Hale, who had received £8,000 for his invention from that House, had been SO altered as to be almost useless. His second charge was that such vast quantities of gunpowder were kept in store for so

was deteriorating in power. His third charge was that 1,000 rounds of ammunition per gun were despatched to Abyssinia, while probably not two rounds per gun were actually fired, nor was there any

MR. OTWAY said, he did not think that the right hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for War had met the charges of the hon. and gallant Member for Lichfield (Major Anson), or that he was entitled to shelter himself behind the excuse that, not expecting from the form of the hon. and gallant Gentleman's Notice that the subject of the accounts would be brought forward, he had not prepared himself to enter into the question. His hon. and gallant Friend had referred to the great waste of money which was taking place in the War Department, and that was also a point eminently worthy of consideration. In addition to the cases specified by his hon. and gallant Friend be (Mr. Otway) had some charges to bring against the Department over which the right hon. Gentleman presided. The first was that when an invention had been approved and the inventor had been rewarded by that House, the Committee to which reference had been made

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON said, he quite agreed with the right hon. Baronet opposite that it was impossible for him to meet the charges of the hon. and gallant Member for Lichfield (Major Anson) without ample notice having been given of them. Instead of wording the Notice as his hon. and gallant Friend had done, he could not help thinking, if his hon. and gallant Friend had intended to bring such grave charges forward, he ought to have used such language as-"In order to prevent erroneous Estimates, in order to prevent utterly falsified accounts being presented, such and such things ought to be done." He thought, however, that when charges of so grave a character were made it was not sufficient that the right hon. Baronet opposite should come down to that House and content himself with making a counter-statement. The hon. and gallant Member, after making such serious charges against the Department, ought not to be satisfied without moving for a Select Committee, or obtaining a promise from the Secretary of War that the whole matter should be fully inquired into by an independent body. quite agreed with the right hon. Baronet as to the difficulty which stood in the way of dealing with the proposal made by the hon. and gallant Gentleman. He went even further, and contended that the proposal to work those establishments as private firms was utterly impracticable. He had had some little experience in connection with those establishments, and believed that they had conferred great advantage on the country. It was no doubt expe

He

dient to resort as far as possible to private | sequence of that telegram within an hour, enterprize; but it was, in his opinion, a promptness which could scarcely have nevertheless of the greatest importance been attained if the delay consequent on that these establishments should be main- the distribution of ammunition to each tained in a state of thorough efficiency. man had had to be incurred. He had made these few remarks because SIR GEORGE BOWYER said, he rehe thought it of the highest importance garded these establishments as resembling that there should be the most perfect to some extent the gardens in which the honesty and rectitude on the part of those proprietors cultivated their own vegetables who managed these establishments, and at a cost greater than the price which because he thought that the accounts ought would have been demanded for them in to be above the shadow even of suspicion. the market. The Government had not MAJOR ANSON desired to say a word the same motives to economy which were in personal explanation of the charge to be found in private establishments. which had been brought against him. They laboured under no fear of bankThe right hon. Baronet the Secretary of ruptcy, and consequently did not pay that State for War had complained that he had attention to details which private persons brought this matter forward without hav- find so necessary to the success of their ing given sufficient notice of his intention. undertakings. He thought, therefore, He certainly was under the impression that it would be much better for the Gothat the right hon. Baronet knew that vernment to go into the open market and he was going to make these charges, and purchase what they required as cheaply he could only further say that he had as they could, instead of carrying on those not made a single charge which had not expensive establishments. But if the been previously brought officially before Government were resolved to maintain the Secretary of State. the manufacturing establishments, the strictest accounts ought to be kept in order to compare the cost of munitions of war supplied by private manufacturers with those manufactured by the Govern ment. The only sound principle on which public manufactories could be conducted, was that laid down by Sir Henry Parnell in his Work on Financial Reform, who said that they ought to be maintained on the same principle as private manufac tories, and that there should be an account current of profit and loss between them and the Financial Department.

COLONEL ANNESLEY said, that some of the charges brought forward were of a most extraordinary character. The hon. Member for Chatham (Mr. Otway), for instance, had made it a matter of complaint against the Government that they had supplied each of the guns sent to Abyssinia with 1,000 rounds, while not more than two rounds to each gun had actually been expended. [Mr. OrWAY: Had probably been expended.] The fact, however, was that there had been scarcely any fighting in Abyssinia, and if the reverse had been the case, and the Government had neglected the precaution of providing an ample supply of ammunition, the hon. Member for Chatham would have been only too ready to have charged the Government with their neglect. He ventured to think that the hon. Member for Wells (Mr. Hayter) was incorrect in the opinion which he had ex pressed, because his belief was that the officers of the army were far from wishing to deprive the soldiers of the ammunition which at present was placed in their care. If that were done, what would be the result when the soldiers were called upon to engage in active service at a moment's notice, a thing to which they were always liable? During the prevalence of the Fenian alarms, for instance, a detachment of troops was telegraphed for at twelve o'clock, and left town for Osborne in con

GENERAL PERCY HERBERT said, that when the Government purchased Warlike Stores the quality was almost invariably found inferior. If the Government did not manufacture a large portion of their gunpowder, they would run the risk of getting powder of inferior quality, which would derange all calculations of range and accuracy of firing.

LORD ELCHO said, his hon. and gallant Relative (Major Anson) being unable again to address the House, wished him to express his desire for a searching investiga tion into the statements he had made, and his intention to move on Thursday next for a Select Committee. He would prefer, however, that the inquiry should be proposed or instituted by the Government.

MAJOR ANSON said, he would withdraw his Motion.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.