much money had been wasted in this survey, inasmuch as the results it had produced might have been attained at a much smaller outlay. It had already cost something like £2,000,000; an amount enormously exceeding what the French paid for their survey, which was as good or better. It was, perhaps, too late in the Session to propose to dwell at any length on the subject; but a new Parliament would, he trusted, see that the public money was not expended in so ill-considered and extravagant a manner as it was at present. He thought that the Estimate should not form part of the Army Votes, but should be placed to a separate account, and then proper attention would be given to it. In his opinion the increase proposed was unnecessary. The cost of engraving the survey was excessive; and if a Committee were granted to inquire into the whole conduct of the Department-though it was too late in the Session now to hope for such a thing-he believed it would be found that at least half the present cost of the Ordnance Survey could be saved. In fact, the surveying, the engraving, and the commercial parts of the business were all ill-managed, while the Director General also had the most unlimited and uncontrolled power.

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON vindicated the Department which the hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Wyld) had impugned, and also the distinguished man at its head, who, he said, was carrying out an important work in a manner which everyone ought to approve.

LORD ELCHO said, he was glad if the advanced period of the Session had prevented the hon. Member (Mr. Wyld) from moving for another Committee, because that question of the Ordnance Survey had suffered greatly through the alternate hot and cold fits which that House had exhibited on the subject. In consequence of an objection taken some years ago to the scale of the survey by the late Mr. Ellice, a full inquiry was instituted, and the Committee came to the deliberate conclusion that the survey was both based on sound principles and was being admirably conducted. The survey was executed not only most accurately, but economically; and he was told that at the present moment a Prussian officer, a good authority on such a subject, who had come to this country, was surprised to find that so perfect a survey had been carried out so cheaply. MR. KNIGHT complained that the maps

of certain counties were fallacious and untrustworthy. They ought to have a correct map which, if they wanted to lay out a road, would be of some use to them, which was not the case at present. He hoped there would be no stinginess or any undue delay in supplying that desideratum.

GENERAL DUNNE bore testimony to the general accuracy of the maps of Ireland produced by the Ordnance Department. He himself did not see the great advantage of the very large survey, except for the towns. It was maps on this large scale that would answer for plans for railways projected, and ordinary maps for the purposes of owners of property; but it must be recollected that for the former more accurate levels than those given on the largest Ordnance maps were requisite, and in the latter that changes of boundary and other objects were so frequent that even on the Irish maps, not many years published, great changes in the face of the country would be seen; but of course, if one part of the country was surveyed upon the large scale, they could hardly avoid executing the remainder of the work in the same uniform manner. The delay, however, had arisen very much from the adoption of the large scale.

LORD ELCHO testified to the great accuracy of the Ordnance maps of Scotland; and pointed out that the length of time occupied in completing the survey the whole kingdom depended on the amount of money which Parliament was ready to vote for the purpose. The calculation, he believed, had been that the entire work in England and Scotland would be executed in fifteen years with a grant of £100,000

a year.

MR. BOUVERIE thought that if by an additional outlay the result would be at tained of having the work thoroughly done it would be a great advantage to the country.

He had himself known large estates to be transferred by means of those maps, the map of the district being attached to the transfer.

MR. POWELL said, he hoped that no false economy would stand in the way of the extensive circulation of these maps. They would become a source of national wealth.

COLONEL W. STUART asked for some explanation as to the medical Bills mentioned in the Vote.

MR. LOCKE said, he never heard of a man denying that an Ordnance Survey was a good thing. It appeared to him

that there was no question before the Committee.

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, with respect to the question of the hon. and gallant Member (Colonel W. Stuart), that it was scarcely matter for surprise, considering how the officers and men engaged in the survey were dispersed over the country, that they should sometimes want a doctor.

MR. WYLD complained that at the present moment it was impossible to obtain a complete set of these maps in London, and he suggested that the publication of the maps should be transferred to the Stationery Office instead of their having to be got from Southampton.

Vote agreed to.

(4.) £102,700, to complete the sum for Miscellaneous Services.

MR. MONSELL said, it had been the practice of the War Department to reward officers for meritorious inventions. In 1856 Colonel Boxer received £5,000 for some inventions of his, and lately Mr. Fraser had received £5,000. Since 1856 Colonel Boxer had distinguished himself by seven or eight other inventions, and several of them, including the invention of a lubricator for the Armstrong gun, had been found of great service. He wished to know, whether it was the intention of the Government to take his case into consideration, with the view of conferring on him some additional reward?

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON replied that it was not his intention to give any further money reward to Colonel Boxer. He doubted the policy of conferring large money rewards on men in the Government employment for discoveries made in their own particular line, and thought they should rather look to some honorary distinction, or increased emolument in their office. When the Government selected an officer on account of his peculiar personal fitness to discharge the duties of the situation to which he was appointed, they were, he thought, entitled to the full exercise of his professional talents, although he would not go the length of saying that in no case should a grant of money be made. He thought he had taken the last course when he lately offered Colonel Boxer a greatly increased salary.

GENERAL DUNNE expressed his concurrence with what had fallen from his right hon. Friend as to the impolicy of giving large money rewards in these cases as a

general rule, and he felt sure that he also spoke the feelings of the corps of Artillery and Engineers in saying so. They felt that when an officer of a scientific corps was employed in the arsenal or laboratory his talents and inventions were due to the service; the latter he tried and perfected at the public expense-what could not be done by a private inventor-and the credit he was sure to receive, and such professional advancement as would follow, were the rewards a soldier should look to. The inventions of private manufacturers came under the knowledge of the Government officers, and of rival inventions they had the opportunity for pirating from the inventions they were called on to examine, and as a fact such accusations had been made, but as it was desirable that the latter should be above suspicion he thought that the Secretary for War had wisely determined to give them promotion and encouragement in the way of their profession rather than money rewards.

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON said, he had heard with regret the reply of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for War with reference to rewarding the inventors. The principle had never before been laid down that officers of the Government were not to be rewarded for inventions, and it was not fair that this new principle should be applied in the case of Colonel Boxer without warning. Mr Fraser had been rewarded with the sum of £5,000. He understood that the right hon. Gentleman had offered Colonel Boxer an increase of salary to the amount of £200 or £300; but as Colonel Boxer's appointment would only last two years longer, he would receive no more than £600 from his additional pay if he had accepted the offer. He thought Colonel Boxer had done right in refusing it.

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, that he had lately refused an application for another reward made by Mr. Fraser.

COLONEL JERVIS congratulated the right hon. Baronet on his sudden conversion, for last year he was not able to convince the right hon. Baronet it was not right to allow officers to take out patents for inventions of a similar character to those on the merits of which they might have to decide. Vote agreed to.

(5.) £154,600, to complete the sum for Administration of the Army.

LORD ELCHO asked the Secretary of State for War to postpone the Vote, in

order that he might submit a Motion to the Committee upon the subject.

MAJOR JERVIS complained that the salaries of the Controller General and the General in charge of the Reserve Army were not included in this Vote.

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, he hoped his noble Friend the Member for Haddingtonshire would throw no obstacle in the way of proceeding with the Vote. The subject alluded to by his noble Friend had been very fully and ably discussed, and although the House was not very full at the time, still those who were present were the Gentlemen who were most competent to deal with the matter. He was most anxious not only that the Vote should be taken, but acted upon, in the first instance in Ireland. In reply to the hon. and gallant Member for Harwich (Major Jervis) that the salary of the Commander of the Reserve Army was not included in the Vote, he said it was because it would give rise to a good deal of discussion, and it was thought better to take it separately.

MAJOR JERVIS said, he would like to know whether the Controller General was to rank as an Under Secretary of State?

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON replied in

the affirmative.

Vote agreed to.

clusive."

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

(9.) £11,800, to complete the sum for Pensions for Wounds.

(10.) £15,600, to complete the sum for Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals.

(11.) £839,600, to complete the sum for Out Pensions.

(12.) £97,200, to complete the sum for Superannuation Allowances.

(13.) £8,700, to complete the sum for Militia, Yeomanry, Cavalry, and Volunteer Corps.

On Motion for reporting the Resolutions to the House.

MR. OTWAY said, he hoped the next Parliament would take up the question of the constitution of the War Department of the country, because if such were done it would be found to be the worst administered and the most expensive part of the public service. The question, moreover, of the relationship between the Secretary at War and the Commander-in-Chief also required serious consideration.

LORD ELCHO said, it would be in the recollection of the House that at an early period of the Session the question was raised as to whether the Capitation Grant was or was not sufficient. An impression then prevailed that before the close of this Session a Commission would be appointed to decide the question. He had asked the Secretary of State whether he would ap point a Special Commission to ascertain who was right on the question.

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, he did not intend to refer the question of increasing the Capitation Grant to the Volunteers to a Commission; but the question would be considered by the Government from time to time with reference to its varying circumstances.

House resumed.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow ; Committee to sit again To-morrow.

TURNPIKE ACTS CONTINUANCE, &c. BILL-[BILL 149.] (Sir James Fergusson, Mr. Secretary G. Bardy.)

COMMITTEE.

Order for Committee read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair.”—(Mr. Gathorne Hardy.)

COLONEL W. STUART said, that if any trust which was in debt was not allowed

Widows' Pensions, &c

years, he was convinced there would be a

more satisfactory state of things than at present. As long as the present system was continued they would never get rid of the Turnpike Act. He suggested that the Bill should be referred to a Select Committee for the purpose of allowing certain persons to be heard with regard to it.

Amendment proposed,

To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "the Bill be committed to a Select Committee," -(Colonel William Stuart,) -instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

MR. GLADSTONE doubted whether any benefit would arise from referring the Bill to a Select Committee at this period of the year; otherwise, he thought it might be advisable to do so. The practice into which the House had gradually fallen upon this subject was very objectionable. Persons had lent money for making turnpike roads, and obtained a lien over the tolls for a certain number of years. He could not conceive anything more clear in principle than that those persons were bound by their bargain for a term of years, and that that bargain affected no other persons whatever. If they had had to deal with individuals, did anyone think that an individual standing in the place of the trust who had entered into a covenant of that kind would have allowed the term to be renewed and the tolls to be continued for the benefit of the other party to the contract who had entered into a wrong bargain? But here the bargain was between an individual, on the one side, and that patient animal the public, on the other. When individual claims came into contact with public rights, they obtained a sanction to which they were not entitled, and the public went to the wall. They had thus got into a difficulty with respect to a series of facts for which the right hon. Gentleman was no more responsible than others who had gone before him; but abuses so gross derived a certain amount of authority from the long lapse of time and the repetition of the offence. Any proceeding adopted on the impulse of the moment would probably substitute a prac tical injustice for what was a gross injustice in principle; but he hoped the House would be prepared, when there was time for consideration of the subject, to take some serious proceeding for the settlement

of the whole question. He knew that the tolls in Lancashire, for instance, were not maintained for the benefit of the public, but simply for the purpose of reimbursing creditors who had advanced their money upon a security which had expired. If there was a case which deserved the application of such epithets as monstrous, it was a case like this. He hoped, therefore, that there would be a consensus amongst official men for the practical examination of these matters, and to consider what, on the whole, was the course that ought to be adopted; and that thus the practice into which the House had probably slidden imperceptibly would be brought to a conclusion, as soon as any fair and legitimate plan for the purpose could be devised.

MR. GOLDNEY said, that all who, like himself, took an interest in the state of turnpike trusts would be happy to hear from the right hon. Gentleman the explanation he had given of his views on the subject. The Turnpike Continuance Act had grown to be considered a matter of course; and at present no less a sum than £400,000 was paid annually under it. A certain indefinite time might be fixed for its termination, and a Schedule of particulars annexed, so that parties connected with the trusts would know at what time they would expire; and he hoped that a measure for this purpose would be introduced next Session.

MR. NEATE thought that the statement of the case by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Lancashire a very unjust one. He contended that a limit was fixed in the first instance, not with a view to the discontinuance of the tolls at the end of the period, but in order to give Parliament a power of revision where that might be necessary.

MR. LOCKE remarked that the invariable plea urged by turnpikes for an extension of the period allowed them was that they were in debt. In all cases where this was alleged strict inquiry ought to be made, because in several instances an investigation had shown that turnpikes which pleaded indebtedness were perfectly solvent.

MR. KNIGHT reminded the House that £20,000 per annum, which was formerly expended in Private Bills for renewing turnpike trusts, was saved by the present procedure. He hoped that if a Select Committee was appointed all the trusts in the kingdom would be referred to it, and that some solution of the question other