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expectation than that of comparative exer- country that is well governed, would any tion. I ask you, whether that is not the body say that our military force was strong, true state of the case with regard to the Ro- because it consisted of foreigners, or that it man Catholics of Ireland ? I will not urge was weak, because it was composed of Enfurther than I did, when I opened this sub. glishmen? Would you not argue, that so ject, the argument, that the privileges be- much the more would be expected from stowed upon the higher orders of people are, men, who were fighting for their own counin point of fact, enjoyed by the lower. No try, their homes, their fortunes, and all that answer has been given to the argument, and was dear to them? Why is the argument therefore I must take it as a principle ad different with respect to Ireland ? Why do mitted. No one has attempted to contradict you wish to have the regiments in Ireland the opinion that the lower orders are in- with as few Irish as possible? The argufluenced by the advantages and the privi- ment is this, and you may reduce it to a leges bestowed on their superiors. Those syllogism, of which the major is, every man who recollect the debates two years ago, is most to be depended upon in proportion may furnish their ininds with as strong an to his interest in the constitution. The illustration on this subject as any argument minor is, Englishmen are most interested in can possibly produce. It was two years their constitution ; ergo, the conclusion is, since an hon. member, then secretary at Englishmen are most to be depended upon. war, brought in a bill for rajsing an army en Apply this, on the other hand, to Ireland, masse. After having explained the details and, altering the terms of the syllogism, the of the bill, as it applied to Great Britain, he conclusion will be the reverse; the minor did conclude with a short sentence, which will be, that the Irish catholics are the least every body well understood, and with regard interested in the constitution, and therefore to which no one thought any comment was they are the least to be relied on to defend necessary. The sentence was to the effect, it

. It is on this principle you would have that it was not thought expedient to apply your regiments in England composed of the bill to Ireland. It would certainly have Englishmen, and in Ireland not composed of been indiscretion, in the true sense of the Irishmen. Who are so little interested in word, either to have applied it to Ireland, Ireland as the Irish Roman catholics ? None. or to have commented on the reason for not Yet such is the state of that country, in applying it. Why? Because it was well which you say nothing is to be obtained by known that the mass of the people of Ireland gaining over the hearts and energies of were not like the mass of the people of En- three-fourths of the population. It is said, gland; because they consisted of two di- are not those noblemen and gentlemen, who vided parties, in the lower of which you compose the higher class of the people of could not have the same confidence as in the Ireland, loyal ? If they are, why would higher; and therefore it was that in England you give them any thing to make them more the levy en masse, which constituted the so? I would give them the same interest best security of the country, was in Ireland in the constitution of the country which looked to as its greatest source of danger. others have, and then I may reasonably exI will refer gentlemen to the bill for pro- pect similar exertions from them. We say moting our military force and national de- it is little for them to gain, and much for us fence. I remember, in the course of one to give. They say it is much for them to gain, day's discussion, relative to the force in Ire- and little for us to give. What is it we give? All land at the time of the debate, compared we give away is political power! To whom with the period of the treaty of Amiens, do we give that power? To the catholics. that a statement was made of so much ca- Who are the catholics ? Our fellow subjects. valry, so much infantry, so much artillery, -I come now to the objection as to the parand so many fencibles. It was then ad-ticular form. It is objected to giving hopes mitted on both sides, that with regard to to the catholics, because it is said, how can such and such regiments, there was a cir- I desire the house to go into a committee, cumstance that made them more particularly if I do not know that the committee will useful to the country; that circumstance support me in all the points in favour of the was, that there were no Irish among them. catholics? Has not this objection been ansIt was stated and admitted, that for the rea-wered, even by what has been said on less son. I have mentioned, there were two or important points ? Supposing two distinct three regiments as available as four or five. questions, standing on different grounds.; Apply this to England, or to any other surely no one will say, that we ought not to

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go into a committee to see whether we can- principle flower of his eloquence consisted not give either, because we cannot give both in the repetition of the word “ must." He There are two very different points in this seemed to think, that the fundamental laws question. Gentlemen speak as if they thought of the church of England "must" be re

rs none but members of the church of Eng- pealed by granting the prayer of the catholand were capable of sitting in parliament. lics. The exclusion of the catholics from But do not dissenters sit in this house ? seats in parliament, and the existence of the However, in point of doctrine, the church test acts, are the props, according to the of England differs from the catholics, yet it right hon. and learned gent., which support does not differ more than from the dissenters. the church of England. What, then, was With regard to the maintenance and esta- the state of the church of England in the blishment of the church of England, there reigns of Elizabeth, of James the first, and cannot be more difference between the ca- Charles the first ? Were these princes not tholics, than there is between the dissenters the heads of the church as effectually as his and the churchmen. We have forty-five present majesty ; nay, would it not be members in this house, who are of a pro- deemed the grossest abomination to doubt, fessed establishment different from our own, even, that Charles the first fell a martyr to and they are not rnembers of the most tole- the church of England ? Yet, throughout rant sect. It is true, that from the bias of the reigns of these princes, Roman catholics their education, from their intellectual at- sat in parliament, and the test act had no tainments, from the improvement of their existence. Granting the thirty-nine articles minds, and from their enlightened under of the church of England to be not repugstanding, they are above narrow religious nant to the free principles of the constituprejudices; yet from the profession of their tion as established in the reign of king Wilfaith, they are not more liberal or tolerant liam ; yet the homilies which follow are by than the Roman catholics. The Roman ca- many stated to be an absolute condemnation tholics are charged with saying, there is no of the very thing which took place at the salvation for heretics, and the Scots kirk time of the revolution. Nay, did not Sasays, it is blasphemy to assert that any can cheverel openly attack, and upon the authobe saved who are not of their faith. Out of rity of these homilies, stigmatise that great these forty-five members, not more than proceeding as impious, and utterly destructhree or four could be persuaded to decide tive of the church of England ? - Now, with us in favour of the repeal of the test with regard to those learned places which act. It is said, how can we employ per- form a repository for the essential doctrines sons in office who are not of the established of religion, I'mean the universities, in one religion. In Ireland they are acceptable, of which (the university of Oxford) I had because there is no test act. If it is said that the honour to receive part of my early eduwe want to put the catholics in a better si- cation, if I was to produce the decree of tuation than the dissenters, let it be recol- that university of 1685, against limited yolected that we are talking of Ireland. But vernment, describing it as one of those is it supposed that the test act is the means things which lead to atheism, what would of assuring

that every man shall be a mem- be said of it? Some of the best of men ber of the church of England ? Do we not have come from that university. None more know, that in the reign of queen Anne, so than the right hon. and learned gent.'; bills of occasional conformity were passed; but I do beg, to use a phin homely phrase, and that in the reign of George I. many of that they will not throw stones whose winthe dissenters only took the sacrament to dows are made of glass. I do not advise the shew their disposition in favour of the esta- _high church party to look so narrowly into blished church, however they might not the history of the catholics, and into all the agree as to parts of the liturgy? Will any violence of their decrees, in order to disbody say that taking the sacrament proves a qualify them from being amalgamatęd and man to be à supporter of the church of reconciled to the constitution of this counEngland? May not a dissenter take the sa- try. It has been said by an hon. and learned crament, and yet consider the liturgy of the gent., that the Roman catholics wish to overchurch of England as the most consummate tum the established religion of the country. bigotry? This leads me to another part of To this I answer, that there are good subsubject, which was stated by a right hon. jects of all sects and persuasions, in all and learned gent. (Sir W. Scott), who, I countries, who dissenting from the establishfiatter myself, I may call my friend. The led religion, yet pay obedience to the opinVOL. IV.

3 Y

ion of the majority. I am surprised it land ? In the first place, the catholics of should have been said by an hon and learned England have not petitioned. I have no gent., (the attorney general) that if he was doubt as to the propriety of putting the caa catholic in a country where the protestant tholics of England on the same footing. I church was established, and he had the have no doubt they would finally obtain the power, he would exercise it to weaken the same privileges. Those who know the ca. established religious government. I have tholics of England, who know the charactoo good an opinion to think so of him. If ter of the lower ranks of the people, are every man was to conceive himself at liberty, sensible how little danger would result from because he differed from the established re- the catholic peers sitting in the house of ligion of a country, to attempt to overturn lords, or catholic members in the bouse of it, the general tendency of such a principle commons. Every man must perceive that would be to destroy all peace in the world. it would be beneficial to the country, partiI do not believe any good catholic would so cularly at a time when every man is called act ; I am sure no good subject, who loves upon to shew his zeal in the service, and in his country, ought so to act. The question the general cause of the empire. I have is this. Here are persons who apply to you, only to add, in answer to an hon. gent. op not for exclusive privileges, but simply to posite, that I was in Ireland a great while be placed on a footing with all the other of ago; but it did not appear to me that the his majesty's subjects. It is a claim of jus condition of the country was calculated to tice. If you reßuse it, the burthen of proof reconcile gentlemen who visited it, to its lies on you, to shew the inconvenience or general laws. The gentlemen of Ireland danger of granting their claim. Nothing of ought to be listened to with very considerthe sort has been proved; you have argued able attention. From what I have seen in it only by referring to old times, differing the course of this debate, I think I shall from the present. The question comes to find, on the division, that I shall have the this, whether, in the state in which we are, honour of dividing with more of the gentleit can be the conduct of a wise and prudent men of that country, than ever I had on government to separate from itself so large any former occasion. I believe it will be a proportion of the population of the country long before the speeches we have heard as the people of Ireland ? No statesman, from them will be forgotten. The question no man who can judge of the affairs of the is important in the highest degree. The world, will think so. I should hope that only way of putting an end to the hopes of those who wish well to the country, will the people of Ireland will be by creating support my motion. If it should however despair, and if ever I hear that they are deunfortunately fail, we shall all have done prived of those hopes they ought to enterour duty in arguing the question, with a tain, I shall despair of those blessings, of view to induce those to adopt our opinion, that mutual good-will and reciprocal sympawho are at present under a fatal delusion thy, without which England can never rely

, with regard to this momentous subject. I on the effectual and sincere co-operation and should notice one thing ; it is, that you have assistance of Ireland against the common raised this question, and not the petition. enemy. The petition has nothing of the seeds of tur

The house then divided, when there apbulence in it. You will, I trust, draw the hopes of Ireland to this country, make the

peared people of Ireland look to us as their best re

For Mr. Fox's motion liance, and prevent their recurring to any

Against it.

336 criminal measures.--I should now sit down, but for the observation of an hon, baronet Majority against the motion 212 (sir W. Dolben). He says, why should you give all this to the catholics of Ireland, and Adjourned at five o'clock on Wednesday not grant the same to the catholics of Eng. I morning.


Since our Report of the Speeches of Lord Redesdale and the Earl of SUFFOLK in the

House of Lords, on the 10th and 13th of May, upon Lord Grenville's Motion for a Commiitee on the Roman CathoLIC PETITION (see pp.711 and 742) was put to press, we have been favoured with the following correct Copies of their Lordships Speeches.

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Lord Redesdale observed that the motion land thought fit to reform what it deemed to before the house was in point of form, " that be corruption and abuse in the christian the house should resolve itself into a com- church; to abolish the usurped authority of mittee to consider of the petition on the ta- the court of Rome, from which it conceived ble;" and the noble baron who had made the corruption and abuse had sprung; and to the motion had intimated, that in the com- require the clergy of Ireland, claiming the mittee it would be open to any lord to sug- benefits of the ecclesiastical establishment of gest any partial measure: but it was evident the country, to yield obedience to the sovethat the noble lord himself conceived that reign power of the state, and to abandon the nothing short of the entire object of the pe- powers assumed contrary to the ancient tition could be suggested; and the petition laws, and paramount that sovereignty; and ers had themselves clearly stated that object when, to inforce obedience to its laws, it reto be “ an equal participation, upon equal quired all its subjects to withdraw from comterms with their fellow subjects, of the full munion with the sea of Rome, as inconsisbenefits of the British laws and constitution.” | teint with the reformation thus attempted : Of that constitution the maintenance of the such of the people of Ireland as thought fit, protestant religion, as the established reli- notwithstanding, to persist in holding comgion of the government, and the exclusion of munion with that see, also thought tit, not the Roman catholic religion from the admi- only to refuse obedier.ce to the legislature in nistration of that government, had become a point for which they might allege religious fundamental principles, long deemed essen- scruples, but likewise to refuse, and those tial to the preservation of the liberty, both who now profess to hold communion with religious and political, of the country: and the see of Rome still refuse, to acknowledge by those laws, of the benefit of which the the validity of those laws by which the powpetitioners sought an equal participation, the ers and revenues of the church-establishment strongest provisions were made for the sup- were transferred to such of the clergy as subport of the protestant religion, and the ex- mitted to the change, and by which all eccleclusion of the Roman catholic from impor-siastical jurisdiction was made subject (as by tant political power. When, therefore, the the ancient law it had been subject) to the petitioners called upon their lordships to give control and coercion of the sovereign power them an equal participation of the British of the state; denying therefore one essential laws and constitution, they either proposed principle of the constitution, the subjection to the house to be guilty of a gross fallacy, or of the ecclesiastical to the civil power. Acthey called upon their lordships to alter those cordingly, the Roman catholics of Ireland laws, and to change that constitution ; for, i have ever since maintained, and still mainconsistently with the existing laws and con- ; tain, a complete hierarchy, in direct and mastitution, the equal participation sought by ' nifest opposition, not merely to the positive the petition could not be had. The equal law, but to this essential and fundamental participation claimed by the petition was principle of the constitution ; representing clearly an equal participation in all powers, that hierarchy as the only lawful successors as well as in all benefits : an equal participa- of the ancient clergy of Ireland, assuming ail tion in whatever might form the constitu- the powers, and claiming all the revenues, tion of the country in church and state. That of that clergy, treating the clergy of the resuch was their object was manifest; not formed religion, placed in the various offices only from the language of the petition, but of the church by the laws and in conformity from the state in which the Roman catholic to the principles of the constitution, as church was zealously maintained in Ireland, usurpers ; and refusing obedience to all laws importantly different from the condition of framed to curb the encroachments of the pathe Roman catholic church in England, or pacy on the sovereign power before as well in any other country in Europe, where the as since the reformation. Denying, there. protestant was the established religion of the fore, to the legislature of the country all country. For when the legislature of Ire- power over the ranks, dignities, agd authori.

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ties, and even the revenues of the church; laity. It was absurd, therefore, to suppose and thus denying one of the most important that Ireland could be at rest until the Roman principles of the constitution, as asserted at catholic clergy had attained those objects of all times, even in the darkest ages. To yield their desires, unless all hopes of attaining to the claims of the petitioners, the house those objects were utterly extinguished, and must not only submit to abandon this im- the desire to attain. had fallen with the hope portant principle, which their ancestors had by which it had been nourished. at all times zealously maintained, but must true that the Roman catholic clergy of Ire. also consent to break the solemn compact so land could scarcely hope fully to attain those recently entered into by the independent le objects, or, having done so, permanently to gislatures of Great Britain and Ireland; the retain their acquisition, whilst Ireland recompact by virtue of which their lordships mained united to Great Britain. Separation were enabled, in that house, to consider the from Great Britain must therefore be in petition before them; they must repeal the their view, at least as a probable event, so hifth article of the union of Great Britain and long as they should fiatter themselves with Ireland, by which the protestant churches of the hope of accomplishing their wishes. If England and Ireland were united, and made the Roman catholic religion had remained for ever the established church of England the established religion of Ireland; or if it and Ireland ; and by which the maintenance could be now made the established religion and preservation of that church, as the esta- of Ireland, consistently with a just observ• blished church of England and Ireland. was ance of the solemn pledge given by the comsolemnly stipulated as a fundamental article pact of union; or consistently with an obof the union itself. They must therefore servance of the faith so frequently, at vahazard the continuance of that union, by a rious times, and in various ways, pledged to direct breach of what has been thus solemn- the protestants of Ireland; or consistently ly declared a fundamental article of the com- with the principles on which the British conpact by which it was made. But they must stitution as it now stands, connected with the do more. The claim by the petition, and title of the family on the throne, can alone the arguments founded upon it, extended in be supported; perhaps (though this may principle, to the whole empire'; and their well be doubted) Ireland as a Román catholordships must also repeal that article of the lic country might remain united with Great treaty of union with Scotland by which a si- Britain. But it is too late to consider what milar provision was made for the mainte- might have been done under such circumnance and preservation of the presbyterian stances; it is too late to conjecture whether form of church government in Scotland. Ireland, as a country wholly Roman cathoEven if the petitioners had not so broadly lic, could probably remain united with the and openly stated their claims, it must be protestant government of Great Britain: i By evident that their pretensions went to this solemn stipulation, which their lordships extent: and it would be absurd to suppose could not be persuaded to violate, the prothat the Roman catholic clergy in Ireland, testant must ever be the established religion claiming to be the lawful successors of the of Ireland, whilst Ireland should remain a ancient clergy, and considering those now in part of the united empire : and the Roman possession as usurpers, would ever be con- catholic could by law become the established tent with less than the possession of the religion, only by the most daring breach of powers and revenues which they thus claim- faith, and by a shameful abandonment of ed as their right, and the ejection of those the principles on which the British constituwhom they deemed to be usurpers of that tion stands. The Roman catholic can thereright. To suppose otherwise were to sup- fore never be made the established religion pose that the nature of man is not what the of Ireland by a law of the united empire, experience of all ages has demonstrated it to sanctioned by a prince of the family now on be; and it was absurd to suppose that whilst the throne. It can therefore only become the powers and revenues of the church were the established religion of Ireland by a sepaclaimed by the Roman catholic clergy, those ration of Ireland from Great Britain, and the powers and revenues were not objects of extirpation or expulsion of the protestants of their desires; and that whilst those desires Ireland. Considering, therefore, the claims

; were nourished by hope, and the gratifica- of the petitioners as utterly inconsistent with tion of those desires was denied, they would the established laws and constitution of the never be content themselves, or ever cease empire; as requiring a complete change, or to excite discontent in the minds of the rather subversion of that constitution in-3

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