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sending them into that description of force (wise." Sir James Pulteney, Lord Temshould be very sparingly used, but he ple, General Norton, and Colonel Stardid not wish that it should be excluded ley, were for giving the militia officers the altogether. Neither did he wish that power of selecting. General Tarleton many of them should enter the guards, thought it of much more consequence that although he must remark, that in all the the best men should be sent to the disrecent wars the guards had very much dis-posable force, than that they should stay tinguished themselves. They had not only in the militia regiments. The Chancellor fought in Flanders, Germany, and lately of the Eschequer expected that when the in Egypt; but in a former war they had legislature had ouce pronounced their opibeen sent to North America. He therefore nion on the subject there would be an hoconsidered them completely as disposable nourable emulation among the militia ofiitroops ; he then, in compliance with the cers, to send good and efficient soldiers to suggestions of the right hon, gent. agreed, the regular army. This clause was then that the words “ Battulious of Royal Ar- agreed to, as was another, which provided tillery and Marine," should be added after that if a sufficient sumber did not volunthe words “ Regular Forces,” in the clause. teer out of the half set apart by the militia The clause as so amended was agreed to. officer, the deficiency should be made good On the clause for allowing the militia out of the remaining part of the regiment, officers to select the men they wished to-On the clause which mentioned general keep in the regiment;

service for life ; Mr. Yorke could not agree to this General Fitzpatrick rose, and moved as clause. He neither wished to make the an amendment, that the term should be for mmilitia inefficient by taking all their best 5 years, or until 6 months after a definitive men from them, nor did he think it right treaty of peace. lle grounded his arguthat only the worst should be sent to join ment, not only on general reasons, but on the, disposable force, What appeared to the conduct of government to the militia hiin a proper medium, would be to allow in a similar case, in the year 1799.-This a certain proportion only, suppose a third motion produced a very long and desultory or a fourth, of the flank companies and conversation, in which lord Temple, Sir front rank men to enter into the regular James Pulteney, general Norton, colonel service. Should more of them volunteer, Stanley, general Tarleton, and sir W.W. he thought it would best be determined Wynne, took a share. by ballot, who should be accepted; he Mr. Fox said that he was a friend to the thought it would be an extreme hardship Clause that provided for the service being to tell a brave soldier, who was desirous limited, instead of being for life, because of honour, You must not volunteer or get it was founded on principles of justice, and the bounty, because you are a good soldier agreeable to the spirit of the constitution and a credit to the regime but such a of this country, and not repugnant to any man may volunteer, because he has been military principle whatever; and when he inattentive to his military duties, and is should have an opportunity of giving a vote rather a disgrace to the regiment. For upon such a question, he should never give these reasons he could not agree to the it for enlisting men for life ; yet he wished clause as it stood.

his right bon. friend on this occasion not The Chancellor of the Exchequer said he to take the sense of the house, because as had introduced this clause for the purpose this was a limited and partial question, maof meeting, as far as possible, the senti- ny might be against this particular clause ments of the militia officers, and was con- under all the circumstances of the case, vinced, that in whatever mode a consider- who might approve of the principle, and able number of the militia could be brought adopt it on another, and what might appear to volunteer, they would still be a most to them a more fit occasion ; and he did valuable accession to the regulat army. wish that the majority against such a prinHe wished to give a discretionary power ciple should be greater in appearance than to the militia officers to make the selection reality. He hoped his right hon. friend, as they thought proper, he did not wish than whom 110body was more capable, Thein to part only with their worst men. would take some opportunity of bringing lle concluded by moving as an amendment, this subject before parliament, and he that after the word “chuse," should be hopes that as it was a paint on which miadded these words, " by ballot or other-litary opinions pere divided, as be pow


heard, the question would be fully consi- would be injurious to the service, and no dered by parliament, since we were almost, advantage to the public. Government if not altogether, the only power in Eu-would take care, that as few abuses as rope which supported its military esta- possible should take place in the practice blishment by enlisting men for life, and of enlisting. we were the very last that ought to adopt Mr. Ellison thought there ought to be such a system, because it was wholly re- some security against the recruiting serpugnant to the true principles of the con-jeants tampering with men. stitution of this country, on which its glory The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, the and consequently its real interest was best security against that was, that both founded.

the labour and the money would be lost, ir The Chancellor of the Exchequer ob- any thing of that nature touk place, beserved on the general question which had cause unless he was fairly enlisted, he could been just alluded to : and remarked that never be attested, the opinions of military men were much Şir W.W.Wynne said, that without such divided on the subject of enlisting soldiers a clause as this in the act of parliament, for a term of years, instead of for life. there could be no security whatever against Many military characters of the first esti- mal-practices in this respect. They could mation thought it would be attended with not depend on the orders of the executive consequences highly injurious to the ser-governineut in such cases. The militia vice. They also thought it impracticable ought to be protected against that most during war. He did not now argue the dangerous animal, a recruiting serjeant, point, but merely mentioned it, as a mat- Mr. Bankes expressed an intention to of. ter of great and serious difficulty at any fer a material amendment in the bill in time, and so doubtful in policy, that he another stage. The committee went should feel himself under the necessity through the bill, and the house being reof opposing such a measure whenever sumed, the report was received immebrought forward. No analogy could be diately, and was ordered to be taken into drawn from the practice of foreign coun- further consideration to-morrow, and the tries; vone of them were under circum- bill with the ainendments, was ordered to stances similar to this.

be printed. Adjourned. Mr. For said, that as to its being a measure wbich could not be adopted in time of war, nothing was more easy than to include in it a provision that none of

Friday, March 29, the men should be discharged during war; [UNIVERSITIES ADVOWSON Bill.] The aud indeed this very thing was done in one order being read for their lordships going of the bills broughi in last war by the right into a committee on the bill, to repeal so hon. gent, bimself; but that was of little much of the act of the 9th of Geo. II. as importance, for the right hon. gent. had went to restrain colleges in the UniversiDo respect for his own bills.

ties of Oxford and Cambridge from purGeneral Fitzpatrick observed, that in chasing the advowson of livings; the clause he had offered, he copied the

The Duke of Norfolk rose to oppose the very words to be found in one of the bills proceedings. He thought adequate reaof tbe chancellor of the exchequer last sons should be given to induce the legiswar; but, liowever, he should follow the lature to depart from a regulation which advice of his bon, friend, and withdraw the the wisdom of their ancestors thought a clause.

salutary provision. Their lordships would Earl Temple proposed a clause, subject- recollect that the act which the present ing every person, who shall unfairly enlist bill went to repeal, in one of its most imany man out of the militia, to a penalty of portant provisions, took place principally 201. or in default of payment, to imprison- at the instance of that great and good mament, not exceeding three months, nor less gistrate and minister, lord Hardwicke. If than six weeks.

the measure was a wise and salutary proThe Chancellor of the F.xchequer opposed vision then, why, he would ask, was it now it, on the ground that it might give birth unwise and injurious ? to hardships upou serjeants, and other re- The Bishop of Oxford contended genecruiting officers, for having offered money rally for the injurious tendency of the reto a man in a public house, &c, which straint, under the circumstances in which


the members of the universities now stood. a variety of important topics, or many of The present proportion of livings was by which questions might arise. It tray be no means adequate to the ends of the insti- matter of discussion, whether the income tution. It did not exceed a moiety of of livings should be auginented from the the number of the members, and at least estates and other resources of the univerhe thought the number of livings should be sities; or whether, and how far the vuniber rendered equal to the number of indivi- of livings may, with reference to the imduals to be provided for, and which may portant objects they all had in view, be be done by means of the bill. The law, increased. The result of his own at present stood, operated in an in-rience on part of the subject was, that, convenient, and, in some respects, a very under the present limitation, the number jujurious manner. The measure in ques- of livings was too small; in what proportion would, he thought, contribute to im- tion and in what manner these should be prove the discipline of the universities, increased, was matter for serious consiand materially to promote the interests of deration. learning. His lordship also alluded to the Lord Auckland confessed, that in his preill effects of the present slow successions sent view of the subject, he was, generally to the livings. With respect to the provi. speaking, favourably disposed towards the sions of the bill, he should have some bill, as he was to every thing that proceedamendments to propose; but seemed to ed from the reverend prelate who intro. say they were not such as would materially duced it: however, he thought some de. alter them.

gree of information on the subject necesLord Sidmouth was of opinion that some sary, as at present they were totally in the farther time should be allowed noble lords dark as to the means which the universities to inform themselves, and to make up their now possessed of remunerating their memminds upon a measure of such peculiar im- bers, as to the number and value of the portance. The restraint, undoubtedly, livings in their disposal, or other resources was, as the noble duke observed, sanction- for that purpose. Ile should, therefore, ed by that great authority, lord chancellor suggest the expediency of the informatioui Hardwicke. What be heard from the rev. such as he alluded to. prelate did not make up his mind as to the The Bishop of Oxford replied at some necessity of a legislative provision, at length, and enlarged upon and enforced least, to the full extent of the present bill. the leading topics which he before urged Admitting the succession to livings, under in favour of the bill; which, however, he the restraint, may be too slow, they may had not the smallest wish to hurry through also, on the other hand, be too quick; the house. He would appeal to their nor did he conceive, that the interests of lordships as to the great importance of learning would be materially benefited education ; to which the present bill went by the alteration; as, through it, mem- to afford a boon; one which the legislature bers might be taken from the university at of the country should not grant with a nig. too early a period, and before their lite-gardly hand. He was impressed with the rary acquirements had attained the neces- conviction that the bill would produce the sary degree of weight and solidity. Neither most salutary and desirable effects; and, could he see how the discipline of the uni- advertivg to what had fallen from noble versities would be ameliorated by the pre- lords on the score of modification, he hoped sent bill. With respect to the proportion that principle would not be too far acted of livings, on which much stress had been upon. laid, an increase of that suppose two Lord Sidmouth, in explanation, indicated thirds, of the number of persons, may be his attachment to the genuine interests of a proper subject for discussion. All he learning; and observed, that his idea was, would propose at present was a little de- that were the limitation taken away, the lay in the progress of the bill, in order to succession to livings, in some instances, afford time for maturely considering the might be too rapid. He concluded by subject.

proposing, that the committee on the bill The Lord Chancellor saw no objection be deferred till Tuesday next. to the postponement desired by his noble The Duke of Norfolk explained, that friend, but he considered the subject of he was not against all alteration of the the greatest importance, and worthy the present system. He was too well aware most serious consideration. It embraced of the importance of education; but be

entirely coincided with a noble baron in important reforms which had been propohis idea, that some information should be sed, and which were begun to be acted laid before the house, as to the propor- upon, should be carried gradually into tion, number, and value of the livings. execution, for he would admit they could He contended for the necessity of some not be at once, he had the best authority information on the subject, with which idea for asserting, that the navy might be kept be was so far impressed, as to propose, in up without resorting to the private yards, order to allow full time to collect it, that but that a considerable annual addition the committee on the bill should be post- might be made to it. Unfortunately for poned until Thursday the 2d of May. the country, the persons who had the

superLord Redesdale argued for the propriety intendance of the naval department at preof having information upon the subject, to sent, seemed to have come into office enable the house to form a just decision upon the specific pledge of wholly reversupon the subject, and to pursue the right line ing the system of their predecessors. of discrimination. He agreed with the noble Economy and arrangement in the king's and learned lord on the woolsack as to the yards, the great objects of that noble lord, different important questions which the who lately presided at the admiralty, were subject involved. He was aware of the either slighted or neglected by those who difficulties which, in some points of view, succeeded him, and the important reforms existed, as with respect to procuring sa- which he had suggested, which he had tisfactory information; but what the house partially executed, and which he would would have principally to consider was the have completely effected as soon as peace general policy of the measure, and to what should be restored, appeared to have been extent it might be expedient to authorise totally abandoned. As a fitter opportunity the conveyance of livings from private would arise for discussing that important patronage to that of the universities, and subject in all its considerations, he would the proper ratio, as far as such was prac- not enter upon it at present, but having ticable, to be established with respect to stated the general grounds upon which he the successions. -After some farther ex- brought forward his motions, proceeded planatory conversation, the cominittee on to read the whole of them to their lordthe bill was adjourned till Thursday next, ships. The motions with which he would and the lords ordered to be summoned trouble their lordships were, first, for “A for that day.

list of ships which have been fitted, or re[STATE OF The Navy.] The order of fitted, between the sth March 1803, and the day having been read,

the 15th May 1804, shewing when each Earl Dornley rose, and expressed his was taken in hand, and when completed." regret that the motions which he was To this he presumed there would be no about to submit to their lordships, had not objection, as it was one of the motions been brought forward by an illustrious made by the noble viscount at the head duke, who was so much better qualified to of the admiralty, with the addition of the give effect to them. The task, however, period during which the ships were refithaving fallen upon him, he would endea-ted.--His next motiou would be for " А vour to explain the reasons for which he list of such ships as have been docked was induced to move for a variety of pa- between the 8th March 1803, and 15th pers necessary, in his opinion, to elucidate May 1804, specifying the time when dockthe important question, which would be ed and undocked.” This was the same shortly submitted to their lordships, and made by his lordship, with the addition of in doing which, he would occupy as little the period.—He would next move for " A of their time as possible. He was anxious list of his majesty's ships on commission, to have it understood, that in bringing for which were built in the merchants' yards, ward the business, he was actuated by no specifying the tiine when launched, their motive of a personal nature towards the cost, and the sums which have since been uoble viscount on the head of the naval de-expended on them, and at what periods.” partment. No, his motives were of a more It would appear from this account, that in honourable character. They sprung from general the ships constructed in the merhis anxiety to promote and maintain that chants' yards were obliged to be repaired establishment, upon which the safety, the within the short period of four years after honour, and the very existence of the they were launched. His next motion country depended. If the essential, and would be for " A list of his majesty's VOL. IV.


en su

ships iu commission, which were built in Lord Walsingham rose to order, and the king's yards, specifying the time when suggested whether it would not he proper they were launched, their cost, and the for the noble lord to have the sense of the sums which have been since expended on house taken on his first proposition, before them, and at what periods." The reason he should proceed to read and comment for which he would move for this account: upou the long series of motions which he was to shew how few ships there were ac- intended submitting to their lordships. tually in commission which had been built Earl Darnley thought it would save in the king's yards, and their durability their lordships much trouble, if he should compared with the ships built in the pri- | proceed to read them, instead of having vate yards.-His next would be for “Au the question put upon every one of them, account of the principal articles of naval which he should tind himself under the stores in the king's yards, on the 18th Feb. necessity of doing, if he were prevented 1801, 15th of May 1804, and at this time, from following that course which he had or as near to the said periods as can be adopted, as likely to least delay their collected from the returns. The quantities lordships. of rough and sided tinber to be separately Lord Melville thought it would be best: stated, and the foreigu timber distinguish- to let his lordship proceed, and explain ed from the Euglish.” This was also one at once the purport of all his motions, of the noble lord's motions, with a trifling as he hoped to be able to satisfy the house, addition. He was anxious that the quan- that there was no real necessity for accedtity of timber should be distinctly stated, ing to any of then. because there is a great fallacy in the ac- Earl Darnley, then moved for “ A

сору: count when the sided timber is returned of that part of the report made by the with the rough, amounting, as he under- commissioners of the navy who inspected. stood, to nearly one third.-His next Chatham dock-yard in 1785, which has would be for “An account of the prin- reference to the supplies of timber sent cipal articles of naval stores due on con- into that yard, and into the yards of Depto. tract, according to the latest returns from ford and Woolwich.” In that report it the several yards; and also on the 18th would, he believed, appear, that the build. Feb. 1801, and the 15th of May 1804 ; Jing of ships of war by contract, impeded the foreign timber to be separately stated considerably the service of the king's yards, from the English, and the rough timber as it prevented sopplies of timber from from the sided." The substance of this being offered to them.-His next motion motion was included in one made by the would be for “ Copies of the reports made noble lord, but he thought it necessary to by the purveyors of Sherwood Forest, be rather more specific in the account he dated 18th Nov. 1797, and 4th Dec. 1802 ;should call for, because he was anxious also an account, shewing the number of that the English timber should be distir. trees which have been felled in that foc. guished froni that which was to proceed rest, for the use of the navy, since the pe-from

any contracts that had been inade, to riod first mentioned ; specifying when the import from Holstein, or elsewhere.His navy board made application to the treanext motion would be for “ An accountsury for the fall of the said trees.” This shewing the number of months which the would establish the fact, that the whole hemp, and spars for masts and topmasts, forest had been suffered to rot, notwithin store in the 15th of May 1804, would standing the report of the purveyors, till last, according to the arerage consumption, the year 1803, wben a fall of 8000 trees during the late war; anil-also how many was made; and during that time the very months that which is due on the contracts ships building in the king's yards were would last.” It would appear from this rotting for want of timber to complete account, he could assert, from the best them.---He would next move for " A copy authority, that there was nearly 18 months of the letter from the navy board to their consumption in store, and that a quantity purveyor of Sherwood Forest dated 20th equal to the consumption of 12 months Nov. 1797, declining the offer of timber had been contracted for.-He would next made by Mr. Shaw, of Trowel.” In this move for ". A copy of the order from the letter he understood they declared they admiralty to the navy board, dated in would be in no want of timber for the January 1776, for keeping a three year's following year.--His next motion was stock of timber in the dock-yards.” “ For an account. shewing the lowest

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