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the private yards. Was it for him, with withstanding he had repeatedly pressed the short experience he had, to deviate the navy board to expedition, it was only from a practice which had been invariably within one hour after he had entered that followed in the proudest period of our naval house, that he received the papers which he annals : The papers which he had laid on moved for some days ago, and which he had the table in his own defence, would decid- the honour of presenting to their lurdships, edly establish that practice which the noble There was one of the motions which it lord had condemned. One of the re-would be impossible to coinply with, within forms which had been suggested, re- any reasonable time, that for the producspected the shoaling or classing of the tion of copies of certain letters, of wbich workmed, and great advantagess were as- there were at least 300. He did not assert cribed to this new discovery. Possibly it this from his own authority, he had ape might be attended with all those benefits ; plied to the proper officer, and he had that but he could not coincide in the inferences morning received a letter from the secrewhich had been drawn from it, to the dis- tary of the navy board, stating, that the repute of the contrary practice. Parts of papers for which the noble lord intended the works of a ship requiring different de- to move, could not be produced, without grees of strength, the strong man was not a ruinous interruption of the business of retarded in his operations by the weaker the office, in less than 3 months. Under man, who was working, perhaps, on a these circumstances, he trusted the noble different part of the ship. This new in- lord would not persevere in pressing his vention was, not practised at the best motion. It may be said, why not employ periods of our navy; it was a discovery supernumerary clerks? He would tell not more than 15 months old, suggested the noble lord, supernumerary clerks would by the master builder at Plymouth, and not do. To prepare papers of such imporrespecting which a difference of opinion tance, with all the accuracy that was ne. obtained anong the master builders in the cessary for the two branches of the legis. other yards. Whether it could be adopted lature, the ablest and most efficient men with advantage, would soon be decided ; must always be employed, and those could the subject was at present under considera- not be diverted from their usual line of emtion, and would most probably be deter- ployment, without materially impeding mined before the papers moved for by the the progress of tlie public service. He noble lord could even, witb the greatest would repeat, that he was as anxious as expedition, be laid upon the table. The the noble lord, for the full discussion of question would be practically considered, the question ; and he would therefore enand would be, within a short time, either tertain the hope, that he would postpone adopted or rejected; or as truth was said a motion which could only tend to retard to lay in the middle, perhaps some mode it. might be struck out between the ancient The Duke of Clarence would not long practice and the new discovery. He could trespass on the house, but he thought it assure the house that the subject was under incumbent on him to say a few words in deep consideration, and he intreated their support of a motion of which he was proud lordships not to interrupt him while he to be the father. He was surprised that was endeavouring 10 probe it to the bot- the secretary of the navy board should tom. He could perceive the drift of the write the letter which the noble lord stated noble lord's motions; they all tended to to have received, or that 3 months should prove, that building in the merchants' be required for the production of papers, yards was at all times more expensive which were necessary for the discussion of than in the King's yards; and thali with one of the most important questions that proper arrangement in the latter, ships was ever submitted to that house. He may be built at a less coniparative expence could not refrain, however, even in that than they actually are. To decide those stage of the business, from declaring, that two important points, much of the infor- it any deviation should take place from the mation which the noble lord required, system laid down by lord St. Vincent, it would be found in the papers before the was both fallacious and erroneous. In house. As to those which the noble lord the merchant yards, the practice had long nuoved for, he was persuaded they could prevailed of shoaling the shipwrights, and gut be produced in sulficient time for the it was the wish of that great character, proposed discussion of the question. Not that the practice, which had been found

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so advantageous, should be introduced wen inquired why, in the report of the and established in the king's yards. privy council relative to the Isle of Man,

Earl Darnley congratulated their lord. that bad been this evening laid on the ships and the country, that the system in- table, the names of the subscribers had troduced by the late board of admiralty been omitted ? Mr. Rose promised to was under consideration, for its merits were make an enquiry on the subject. Mr. such, that he entertained a confident hope Alexander brought up the report of the that it would be adopted. He was happy committee on the custom duty bill, which to hear such a declaration fall from the was agreed to. noble lord at the head of the naval depart. [Irish Militia ENLISTING Bill.] The ment, for it was generally understood that Chancellor of the Exchequer rose, in purhe, and those united with him in admini- suance of the notice given by him yesterstration, came in with the determination day, to move for leave to bring in a bill to resist all the salutary regulations of the for reducing the militia of Ireland, and late board of Admiralty:-—'The first motion enabling them to enlist into the regiments was then put and negatived. It was moved, of the line, artillery and royal marines, that the rest of the series should be read The general arguments in favour of this short, which being done accordingly, they measure had been so fully discussed upon were all rejected.-Adjourned.

a similar question, with regard to the English and Scotch militit, that it was not

necessary now to dwell upon them. The HOUSE OF COMMONS.

arguments, as far as they related to general Friday, March 29.

policy, applied with greater force to the [MINUTES.] Mr. Abercrombie brought militia of Ireland. The militia of Ireland in à bill for enlarging the powers of the stood on a different ground from that of corporation of excise in Scotland, and a England. The plan for lowering it did bill for raising a further sum of inoney for nul beur a grenter proportion than it improving the harbour of Leith, which ought; but it was also to be considered, were read a first time.-The Edinburgh that in Ireland there was a greater facility police bill was read a third time and in gaining an acquisition to such a depassed.--Mr.Curwen moved, that an hum-scription of force as the militia, than there' ble address be presented to his Majesty, was in this country. His plan was not to requesting that he would be graciously take froin the militia more than two-fifths. pleased to cause to be laid before the house The zeal and ability of the commanders a copy of the proceedings of the privy would, he was persuaded, soon place the council in 1765, on the petition of the militia regiments on the same footing they duke of Athol, for a further compensation now stood. It was not necessary to trouble for the sale of his feudal rights. Ordered. the house with any of the details at present. -Mr. Rose presented the report of the He concluded by moving “for leave to bring privy council, dated 21st July 1804, on in a bill for allowing a certain proportion the petition of the duke of Athol, which of the militia in Ireland voluntarily to ena was ordered to be printed.--The American list into his majesty's forces of the line, artreaty bill, and the French and Spanish tillery, and marines.” trade licence bill, went through commit- Sir John Newport was of opinion, that tees, and the reports were received. - Mr. the militia system, however advantageous S. Bourne brought up the reports of the it might be to England, was injurious to committees on the foreign prize ships bill, Ireland, and he could therefore wish to see and the neutral ships bill, which were it abolished in that country in toto. He agreed to.-On the motion of Mr. Magens nevertheless highly disapproved of the it was ordered, that there be laid before measure proposed by the right hon. gent. the house an account of all dollars issued Ireland was, he believed, justly considered by the bank of England to the latest period the most vulverable part of the empire ; at which the same could be made out. and was it prudent, at present, to deprive Mr. Alexander brought up the report it of a considerable portion of its disciof the committee on the Spanish wine plined force for the purpose of substituting daty, which was agreed to, and a bill a parcel of new recruits, whom it would ordered accordingly.- A message from the require two or three years properly to train? lords announced their lordships' assent to He was not a militia officer; he never had the additional legacy duty bill... Mr. Cur- been one; por.was it likely he ever should be one; and therefore he might, without tionary power to allow which regiments he any suspicion of interested motives, ex- should think fit to volunteer for each seipress his sympathy with that respectable vice. body in the mortification they must feel

Colonel Calcraft thought this quite a in losing so many men, whom they had distinct measure from that with respect to been at such pains to instruct, and in be- the English Militia ; as, in point of fact, ing degraded to the situation of recruit- the Irish Militia had nothing but the name ing officers for the regular army.

of militia belonging to them. They were Lord De Blaquiere approved the bill. not raised by ballot, but by bounty; and Many people thought, that the Irish mi- if the Irish gentlemen were willing to belitia would be better. employed any where come recruiting officers for the army, he thay in their own country. He did not saw no reason why the motion of the right like to hear the gentlemen of Ireland talked hon. gent. should be resisted by the house. of as crimp3, and recruiting serjeants. Sir George Hill supported the motion,

Sir John Neuport rose to order. He had and panegyrised the character of the Irish never made use of the word crimp; what Militia otlicers. Their conduct and that of he said related to officers.

the Irislı gentlemen in general, who by their The Speaker informed the hon. baronet, own subscriptions raised the militia and that what he was now stating was in ex- kept the country sate, without any contriplanation, and not on a point of order. buiion from those absentees whose lands He could not rise in explanation, until the they thus defended, was, in his judgment, noble lord concluded his speech..

entitled to peculiar praise. Considering Lord De Blaquiere, resuming, observed, the conduct of the Irish militia who, to a that bis hon. friend and himself would man, volunteered last year to serve in any have many opportunities to talk over these part of the united kingdom, and the pubthings. The words of the hon. baronet, lic-spirited feeling of their officers, he amounted, in their effect, to those he had could not help saying that he was much used. He would be the last in the world astonished at the selfishness exhibited last to impute to any man sentiments that he year, as well as in the whole course of the did not entertain, or put in his mouth debates of the present week, with respect words that he had not uttered. He denied to the English militia.- After a few words that the bill could have the effect to de- from Lord Temple, Mr. Alexander, and grade the Irish gentlemen. He thought it Mr. Calcraft, the motion was agreed to.a good, substantial measure.

The bill was afterwards brought iv, read General Tarletun, adverting to the opi-a first, and ordered to be read a second nion of the bon. baronet, that it would time on Monday. require two or three years to train the re- [English Militia ExLISTING BILL.] cruits who should fill up the chasm that The house having, in pursuance of the orthis' bill would produce in the , militia of der of the day, taken into consideration Ireland, took occasion to remark, that the the Report of the English Militia Enlistresult of his own experience, and that of ing bill, several aniendments were made many other officers with whom he was ac

in the Committee. quainted was, that an Irishman was much The Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed more easily disciplined than a native of any two new clauses, one for adjusting the other part of the united kingdom, and mode of ballots, in those counties in which therefore he was certain that a much less the greatest and least number of men time would be found necessary to bring should enlist; and another to prevent serthese recruits to the same state as that in jeants and corporals of the Militia from which the old militia stood, than was sup- volunteering as serjeants and corporals of posed by the hon. baronet.

Artillery ; both of which were agreed to. Mr. Bastard was apprehensive that as Mr. Bankes said, that though it was the marine service was considered prefer- thought proper to put the ballot out of able to that of the line, most of the men sight in the present bill, yet it was not the volunteering, would wish to enlist in the less in existence, and that for the sake of marines, an event which would defeat the uniformity in the recruiting, both for the · grand purpose of the measure.

Regulars and the Militia, it was necessary, The Chancellor of the Exchequer replied, in his opinion, that a clause should be inthat this would not be at the option of the serted, enacting that when vacancies oc

The act gave bis majesty a discre- curred, instead of obliging a person to find



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a substitute, the men should be raised by | submitted to their lordships this day se'na small bounty paid by the parish. Hav- night, the substance of which was, to add ing moved a clause to this effect,

to some of them, the words “ punishable Sir Robert Buxton seconded the motion. by the ordinary course of law.” Here # The parish, he said, was already obliged very long conversation ensued on a point

pay half the bounty given by an indivi- of order; whether the motions should be dual for a substitute, and a small addition, put collectively or separately, in which he thought, might be sufficient to release conversation the following noble lords took the individual altogether.

a part. For discussing them collectively, The Chancellor of the Exchequer observed, were lords Grenville, Spencer, Carlisle, that he agreed with the hon. gent, as well Darnley, Auckland, &c.; for separate as the hon. bart. as to the unavoidable ne- discussion, were the Lord Chancellor, cessity of recurring to the ballot, but, in lords Ellenborough, Hawkesbury, Sido doing so, he acted in strict conformity to mouth, Mulgrave, Buckinghamshire, and the opinion of the house, which was, that Redesdale. The conversation, which lastwhen the militia should be reduced to its ed a considerable time, at length ended in quota, the custom of balloting ought not lord Auckland withdrawing his motion. to be given up. He could not accede, STANDING ORDER.] Lord Grenville, therefore, to the motion of the hon. gent. after shortly alluding to his having been -After a few words between Mr. Wil- interrupted on a former night on this subberlorce, in support of the clause, and ject, moved that the Standing Order, No. Mr. Canning and sir James Pulteney 30, purporting, that if any peer should against it, the question was put from the require the house to go into a committee, chair, that the clause be brought up, which for the purpose of delivering his opinion was negatived without a division.-Ad- with greater freedom, by having liberty to journed.

speak more than once, it ought not to be

refused, be read. His reason, he stated, HOUSE OF LORD8.

was to give a fair opportunity to noble

lords to discuss this important point with Monday, April 1,

freedom, by speaking as often as they were [ROMAN CATHOLIC Petition. The inclined.--A conversation of considerable Bishop of Durhum rose to express a wish length ensued on the interpretation of the that the noble baron who had presented the standing order, the lord Chancellor, lords Petition from the Roman Catholics of Ire- Hawkesbury, Redesdale, Morton, &c. conland, would have the goodness to name tending that it was not imperative; and the day on which it was his intention to lords Grenville, Spencer, Ellenborough, bring the object of that Petition under the &c. maintaining that so long as it stood consideration of the house. The subject on the books of the house as one of their it involved was one of such importance, orders, it was entitled to its full weight and that he felt it his duty to be prepared for effect. the discussion of it, whenever the noble The Lord Chancellor having, in the course baron should think fit to bring it forward. of the discussion, referred to some expres

Lord Grenville in reply, said that it was sions of his R. H. the Duke of Clarence on his intention, as far as he could now fore- a former night, charging him with having sce, to bring forward his notion on that violated the orders of the house, in himsubject on the 10th of May next. Should itself addressing their lordships niore than however be for the convenience of any once; noble lord to postpone the discussion for His Royal Highness the Prince of a few days, be for one could have no ob- Wales rose to express what had occurred jection.

to him as being the meaning and import of The Bishop of Durham only wished that the observation alluded to, which had fal, no delay might take place after the day len from his noble relation. His noble appointed by the noble baron.

relation, as his Royal Highness understood CONDUCT OF JUDGE Fox.] The order hin, wished to establish how essential it of the day being read for resuming the de- was that a liberal interpretation of the or, bate on certain questions relative to the ders of their lordships on the usage of decase of Judge Fox;

bate should take place, A Noble Friend Lord Auckland rose to offer an amend- of his lord Grenville) had been called to ment to a string of motions which he had order that evening by a noble earl oppoVol. IV,


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site; and the remark of his noble relative stained that the precedents referred to by then was, that the same liberty (that of the noble lord could not apply, as they ocspeaking more than once) had been as curred previous to the passing of the act sumed by the noble lord on the woolsack, of settlemnant; admitted it to be the estaand that he thought it but proper that a blished law of the land that no judicial similar indulgence should be extended to proceeding of a criminal nature could orihis noble friend, and other lords on that giuate in that house; but contended that side of the house on which he commonly the measure now before the house was not sat. In making this observation, His of a judicial nature, instituted with the Royal Highness was conscious that nothing view of punishment. He could not, at the was more distant from the mind of his no- same time, see why the judges should not ble relatiou than to throw out any impro- be considered as equally safe in the hands per reflection against any noble lord what of the two houses of parliainent as in those ever, particularly against any person who of twelve ordinary men, whose verdict had the honor of filling the seat of Speaker against them would, if the arguments on of that house; and he submitted it to the the other side went to any thing, be obliCandour of the noble and learned lord gatory on their lordships, and would be a himself, if the observation of his noble sufficient call on them to address his marelation was not strictly consistent with jesty for the dismissal of any judge against that liberal practice which had generally whom sucli a verdict should be found. distinguished the proceedings of their lord- Lord Grenville could not at all see the ships.

meaning of the distinction laid down by the After some further discussion, lord noble and learned lord. He stated that Grenville agreed generally to move for the this was not a judicial matter, or one to house going into a committee, without any iufer punishment. It undoubtedly, howreference to the standing order. The house ever, was' meant to go the length of having accordingly gone into a com- grounding an address to his majesty for mittee,

the dismissal of a judge for improper Lord Grenville rose in support of the conduct in his judicial capacity, and such motion of lord Auckland for referring the he contended could not originate in that different points which he had formerly sub- house. He would wish the noble and mitted to the house, for the opinion of the learned lord to point out to them where twelve judges. His lordship particularly the lipe was to be drawn, and what, if any alluded to the precedents which he had thing short of murder, felony, or treason, pointed out on a former night, and stated was to be esteemed without the original that, in consequence of the doubts sug- cognizance of that house. As to the idea of gested by a noble and learned lord (Ellen- the act of settlement subjecting the judges borough), he had caused the records of to a jurisdiction of which they were forone of these cases, Bridgman v. Holt, to merly independent, he saw nothing in the - be searched for, and it clearly made out act which sanctioned such an idea, but the his original assertion, being a case directly direct contrary, in point; there, as in the present case, a Lord Hawkesbury opposed the motion petition had been presented to the house of lord Auckland, and contended that the against three of the judges of the Com- proceedings of the house had been common Plens, which the house ordered them pletely regular. In this opinion be was to answer. In the abiswer lodged, these seconded by lord Redesdale. judges refused to plead the merits of the Lord Auckland defended the positions case unless when called before a legal tri- laid down by lord Grenville, by recapitulabunal. They denied the jurisdiction of ting the arguments which he had formerly their lordships, and naintained that the adduced in support of his motions, calling them before the house was contrary Earl Carisfort followed on the same to the established law of the land. On side, and deprecated, in strong terms, the considering the matter, after taking the idea of subjecting the judges to a species opinion of the other judges, the house of control from which every other suba came to be of the same mind, and the ject of this country was exempt--thereby matter was dismissed.

reiidering them the tools of the minister of The Lord Chancellor recapitulated the the day. arguments which he had formerly adduced The Earl of Suffolk maintained the neiy support of the contrary opinion; main- cessity of resorting to the opinion of ulip

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