a ruinous interruption of the business of the office, in less than 3 months. Under these circumstances, he trusted the noble lord would not persevere in pressing his motion. It may be said, why not employ

the private yards. Was it for him, with withstanding he had repeatedly pressed the short experience he had, to deviate the navy board to expedition, it was only from a practice which had been invariably within one hour after he had entered that followed in the proudest period of our naval house, that he received the papers which he annals? The papers which he had laid on moved for some days ago, and which he had the table in his own defence, would decid- the honour of presenting to their lordships. edly establish that practice which the noble There was one of the motions which it lord had condemned. One of the re- would be impossible to comply with, within forms which had been suggested, re- any reasonable time, that for the producspected the shoaling or classing of the tion of copies of certain letters, of which workmen, and great advantagess were as- there were at least 300. He did not assert cribed to this new discovery. Possibly it this from his own authority, he had apmight be attended with all those benefits; plied to the proper officer, and he had that but he could not coincide in the inferences morning received a letter from the secrewhich had been drawn from it, to the dis-tary of the navy board, stating, that the repute of the contrary practice. Parts of papers for which the noble lord intended the works of a ship requiring different de- to move, could not be produced, without grees of strength, the strong man was not retarded in his operations by the weaker man, who was working, perhaps, on a different part of the ship. This new invention was not practised at the best periods of our navy; it was a discovery supernumerary clerks? He would tell not more than 15 months old, suggested the noble lord, supernumerary clerks would by the master builder at Plymouth, and not do. To prepare papers of such impor respecting which a difference of opinion tance, with all the accuracy that was ne obtained among the master builders in the cessary for the two branches of the legis other yards. Whether it could be adopted lature, the ablest and most efficient men with advantage, would soon be decided; must always be employed, and those could the subject was at present under considera- not be diverted from their usual line of emtion, and would most probably be deter-ployment, without materially impeding mined before the papers moved for by the the progress of the public service. He noble lord could even, with the greatest would repeat, that he was as anxious as expedition, be laid upon the table. The the noble lord, for the full discussion of question would be practically considered, the question; and he would therefore enand would be, within a short time, either tertain the hope, that he would postpone adopted or rejected; or as truth was said a motion which could only tend to retard to lay in the middle, perhaps some mode might be struck out between the ancient practice and the new discovery, He could assure the house that the subject was under deep consideration, and he intreated their lordships not to interrupt him while he was endeavouring to probe it to the bottom. He could perceive the drift of the noble lord's motions; they all tended to prove, that building in the merchants yards was at all times more expensive than in the King's yards; and that with proper arrangement in the latter, ships may be built at a less comparative expence than they actually are. To decide those two important points, much of the information which the noble lord required, would be found in the papers before the house. As to those which the noble lord moved for, he was persuaded they could not be produced in sufficient time for the proposed discussion of the question. Not

it.

The Duke of Clarence would not long trespass on the house, but he thought it incumbent on him to say a few words in support of a motion of which he was proud to be the father. He was surprised that the secretary of the navy board should write the letter which the noble lord stated to have received, or that 3 months should be required for the production of papers, which were necessary for the discussion of one of the most important questions that was ever submitted to that house. He could not refrain, however, even in that stage of the business, from declaring, that if any deviation should take place from the system laid down by lord St. Vincent, it was both fallacious and erroneous. the merchant yards, the practice had long prevailed of shoaling the shipwrights, and it was the wish of that great character, that the practice, which had been found

In

so advantageous, should be introduced | wen inquired why, in the report of the and established in the king's yards. privy council relative to the Isle of Man, Earl Darnley congratulated their lord- that had been this evening laid on the ships and the country, that the system in- table, the names of the subscribers had troduced by the late board of admiralty been omitted? Mr. Rose promised to was under consideration, for its merits were make an enquiry on the subject.— Mr. such, that he entertained a confident hope Alexander brought up the report of the that it would be adopted. He was happy committee on the custom duty bill, which to hear such a declaration fall from the was agreed to. noble lord at the head of the naval depart- [IRISH MILITIA ENLISTING BILL.] The ment, for it was generally understood that Chancellor of the Exchequer rose, in purhe, and those united with him in admini-suance of the notice given by him yesterstration, came in with the determination day, to move for leave to bring in a bill to resist all the salutary regulations of the late board of Admiralty. The first motion was then put and negatived. It was moved, that the rest of the series should be read short, which being done accordingly, they were all rejected.-Adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

for reducing the militia of Ireland, and enabling them to enlist into the regiments of the line, artillery and royal marines. The general arguments in favour of this measure had been so fully discussed upon a similar question, with regard to the English and Scotch militia, that it was not necessary now to dwell upon them. The arguments, as far as they related to generalpolicy, applied with greater force to the militia of Ireland. The militia of Ireland stood on a different ground from that of England. The plan for lowering it did not bear a greater proportion than it ought; but it was also to be considered, that in Ireland there was a greater facility in gaining an acquisition to such a description of force as the militia, than there' was in this country. Ilis plan was not to take from the militia more than two-fifths. The zeal and ability of the commanders would, he was persuaded, soon place the militia regiments on the same footing they now stood. It was not necessary to trouble the house with any of the details at present. He concluded by moving "for leave to bring in a bill for allowing a certain proportion of the militia in Ireland voluntarily to enlist into his majesty's forces of the line, artillery, and marines."

Friday, March 29. [MINUTES.] Mr. Abercrombie brought in a bill for enlarging the powers of the corporation of excise in Scotland, and a bill for raising a further sum of money for improving the harbour of Leith, which were read a first time.-The Edinburgh police bill was read a third time and passed. Mr.Curwen moved, that an humble address be presented to his Majesty, requesting that he would be graciously pleased to cause to be laid before the house a copy of the proceedings of the privy council in 1765, on the petition of the duke of Athol, for a further compensation for the sale of his feudal rights. Ordered. -Mr. Rose presented the report of the privy council, dated 21st July 1804, on the petition of the duke of Athol, which was ordered to be printed.-The American treaty bill, and the French and Spanish trade licence bill, went through commit- Sir John Newport was of opinion, that tees, and the reports were received. Mr. the militia system, however advantageous S. Bourne brought up the reports of the it might be to England, was injurious to committees on the foreign prize ships bill, Ireland, and he could therefore wish to see and the neutral ships bill, which were it abolished in that country in toto. He agreed to. On the motion of Mr. Magens nevertheless highly disapproved of the it was ordered, that there be laid before measure proposed by the right hon. gent. the house an account of all dollars issued Ireland was, he believed, justly considered by the bank of England to the latest period the most vulnerable part of the empire; at which the same could be made out. and was it prudent, at present, to deprive -Mr. Alexander brought up the report it of a considerable portion of its disciof the committee on the Spanish wine duty, which was agreed to, and a bill ordered accordingly.-A message from the lords announced their lordships' assent to the additional legacy duty bill.-Mr. Cur

plined force for the purpose of substituting a parcel of new recruits, whom it would require two or three years properly to train? He was not a militia officer; he never had been one; nor was it likely he ever should

be one; and therefore he might, without | tionary power to allow which regiments he any suspicion of interested motives, ex- should think fit to volunteer for each serpress his sympathy with that respectable vice. body in the mortification they must feel in losing so many men, whom they had been at such pains to instruct, and in being degraded to the situation of recruiting officers for the regular army.

Lord De Blaquiere approved the bill. Many people thought, that the Irish militia would be better. employed any where than in their own country. He did not like to hear the gentlemen of Ireland talked of as crimps, and recruiting serjeants.

Sir John Newport rose to order. He had never made use of the word crimp; what he said related to officers.

Colonel Calcraft thought this quite a distinct measure from that with respect to the English Militia; as, in point of fact, the Irish Militia had nothing but the name of militia belonging to them. They were not raised by ballot, but by bounty; and if the Irish gentlemen were willing to become recruiting officers for the army, he saw no reason why the motion of the right hon. gent. should be resisted by the house.

Sir George Hill supported the motion, and panegyrised the character of the Irish Militia officers. Their conduct and that of the Irish gentlemen in general, who by their The Speaker informed the hon. baronet, own subscriptions raised the militia and that what he was now stating was in ex-kept the country safe, without any contriplanation, and not on a point of order.bution from those absentees whose lands He could not rise in explanation, until the they thus defended, was, in his judgment, noble lord concluded his speech.

Lord De Blaquiere, resuming, observed, that his hon. friend and himself would have many opportunities to talk over these things. The words of the hon. baronet, amounted, in their effect, to those he had used. He would be the last in the world to impute to any man sentiments that he did not entertain, or put in his mouth words that he had not uttered. He denied that the bill could have the effect to degrade the Irish gentlemen. He thought it a good, substantial measure.

General Tarleton, adverting to the opi-a nion of the hon. baronet, that it would require two or three years to train the recruits who should fill up the chasm that this bill would produce in the, militia of Ireland, took occasion to remark, that the result of his own experience, and that of many other officers with whom he was acquainted was, that an Irishman was much more easily disciplined than a native of any other part of the united kingdom, and therefore he was certain that a much less time would be found necessary to bring these recruits to the same state as that in which the old militia stood, than was supposed by the hon. baronet.

Mr. Bastard was apprehensive that as the marine service was considered preferable to that of the line, most of the men volunteering, would wish to enlist in the marines, an event which would defeat the - grand purpose of the measure.

entitled to peculiar praise. Considering the conduct of the Irish militia who, to a man, volunteered last year to serve in any part of the united kingdom, and the pub lic-spirited feeling of their officers, he could not help saying that he was much astonished at the selfishness exhibited last year, as well as in the whole course of the debates of the present week, with respect to the English militia.-After a few words from Lord Temple, Mr. Alexander, and Mr. Calcraft, the motion was agreed to.The bill was afterwards brought in, read first, and ordered to be read a second time on Monday.

[ENGLISH MILITIA ENLISTING BILL.] The house having, in pursuance of the order of the day, taken into consideration the Report of the English Militia Enlisting bill, several amendments were made in the Committee.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed two new clauses, one for adjusting the mode of ballots, in those counties in which the greatest and least number of men should enlist; and another to prevent serjeants and corporals of the Militia from volunteering as serjeants and corporals of Artillery; both of which were agreed to.

Mr. Bankes said, that though it was thought proper to put the ballot out of sight in the present bill, yet it was not the less in existence, and that for the sake of uniformity in the recruiting, both for the Regulars and the Militia, it was necessary, The Chancellor of the Exchequer replied, in his opinion, that a clause should be inthat this would not be at the option of the serted, enacting that when vacancies ocThe act gave his majesty a discre-curred, instead of obliging a person to find

men.

a substitute, the men should be raised by submitted to their lordships this day se'na small bounty paid by the parish. Hav-night, the substance of which was, to add ing moved a clause to this effect,

Sir Robert Buxton seconded the motion. The parish, he said, was already obliged to pay half the bounty given by an individual for a substitute, and a small addition, be thought, might be sufficient to release the individual altogether.

to some of them, the words " punishable by the ordinary course of law." Here a very long conversation ensued on a point of order; whether the motions should be put collectively or separately, in which conversation the following noble lords took a part. For discussing them collectively, were lords Grenville, Spencer, Carlisle, Darnley, Auckland, &c.; for a separate discussion, were the Lord Chancellor, lords Ellenborough, Hawkesbury, Sidmouth, Mulgrave, Buckinghamshire, and Redesdale. The conversation, which lasted a considerable time, at length ended in lord Auckland withdrawing his motion.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer observed, that he agreed with the hon. gent. as well as the hon. bart, as to the unavoidable necessity of recurring to the ballot, but, in doing so, he acted in strict conformity to the opinion of the house, which was, that when the militia should be reduced to its quota, the custom of balloting ought not to be given up. He could not accede, STANDING ORDER.] Lord Grenville, therefore, to the motion of the hon. gent. after shortly alluding to his having been -After a few words between Mr. Wil-interrupted on a former night on this subberforce, in support of the clause, and ject, moved that the Standing Order, No. Mr. Canning and sir James Pulteney 30, purporting, that if any peer should against it, the question was put from the chair, that the clause be brought up, which was negatived without a division.-Adjourned.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Monday, April 1,

[ROMAN CATHOLIC PETITION.] The Bishop of Durham rose to express a wish that the noble baron who had presented the Petition from the Roman Catholics of Ireland, would have the goodness to name the day on which it was his intention to bring the object of that Petition under the consideration of the house. The subject it involved was one of such importance, that he felt it his duty to be prepared for the discussion of it, whenever the noble baron should think fit to bring it forward. Lord Grenville in reply, said that it was his intention, as far as he could now foresee, to bring forward his motion on that subject on the 10th of May next, Should it however be for the convenience of any noble lord to postpone the discussion for a few days, he for one could have no objection.

The Bishop of Durham only wished that no delay might take place after the day appointed by the noble baron.

require the house to go into a committee, for the purpose of delivering his opinion with greater freedom, by having liberty to speak more than once, it ought not to be refused, be read. His reason, he stated, was to give a fair opportunity to noble lords to discuss this important point with freedom, by speaking as often as they were inclined. A conversation of considerable length ensued on the interpretation of the standing order, the lord Chancellor, lords Hawkesbury, Redesdale, Morton, &c. con tending that it was not imperative; and lords Grenville, Spencer, Ellenborough, &c. maintaining that so long as it stood on the books of the house as one of their orders, it was entitled to its full weight and effect.

The Lord Chancellor having, in the course of the discussion, referred to some expréssions of his R. H. the Duke of Clarence on a former night, charging him with having violated the orders of the house, in himself addressing their lordships more than once;

His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales rose to express what had occurred to him as being the meaning and import of the observation alluded to, which had fal, len from his noble relation. His noble relation, as his Royal Highness understood [CONDUCT OF JUDGE Fox.] The order him, wished to establish how essential it of the day being read for resuming the de- was that a liberal interpretation of the orbate on certain questions relative to the ders of their lordships on the usage of decase of Judge Fox ; bate should take place. A Noble Friend Lord Auckland rose to offer an amend-of his (lord Grenville) had been called to ment to a string of motions which he had order that evening by a noble earl oppoVol. IV,

M

site; and the remark of his noble relative | tained that the precedents referred to by then was, that the same liberty (that of the noble lord could not apply, as they ocspeaking more than once) had been as-curred previous to the passing of the act sumed by the noble lord on the woolsack, of settlemant; admitted it to be the estaand that he thought it but proper that ablished law of the land that no judicial similar indulgence should be extended to proceeding of a criminal nature could orihis noble friend, and other lords on that giuate in that house; but contended that side of the house on which he commonly the measure now before the house was not sat. In making this observation, His of a judicial nature, instituted with the Royal Highness was conscious that nothing view of punishment. He could not, at the was more distant from the mind of his no- same time, see why the judges should not ble relation than to throw out any impro-be considered as equally safe in the hands per reflection against any noble lord what- of the two houses of parliament as in those ever, particularly against any person who of twelve ordinary men, whose verdict had the honor of filling the seat of Speaker against them would, if the arguments on of that house; and he submitted it to the the other side went to any thing, be oblicandour of the noble and learned lord gatory on their lordships, and would be a himself, if the observation of his noble sufficient call on them to address his ma◄ relation was not strictly consistent with jesty for the dismissal of any judge against that liberal practice which had generally whom such a verdict should be found. distinguished the proceedings of their lordships.

After some further discussion, lord Grenville agreed generally to move for the house going into a committee, without any reference to the standing order. The house having accordingly gone into a committee,

Lord Grenville could not at all see the meaning of the distinction laid down by the noble and learned lord. He stated that this was not a judicial matter, or one to infer punishment. It undoubtedly, however, was meant to go the length of grounding an address to his majesty for the dismissal of a judge for improper Lord Grenville rose in support of the conduct in his judicial capacity, and such motion of lord Auckland for referring the he contended could not originate in that different points which he had formerly sub-house. He would wish the noble and mitted to the house, for the opinion of the learned lord to point out to them where twelve judges. His lordship particularly the line was to be drawn, and what, if any alluded to the precedents which he had thing short of murder, felony, or treason, pointed out on a former night, and stated was to be esteemed without the original that, in consequence of the doubts sug-cognizance of that house. As to the idea of gested by a noble and learned lord (Ellen- the act of settlement subjecting the judges borough), he had caused the records of to a jurisdiction of which they were forone of these cases, Bridgman v. Holt, to merly independent, he saw nothing in the be searched for, and it clearly made out act which sanctioned such an idea, but the his original assertion, being a case directly direct contrary, in point; there, as in the present case, a Lord Hawkesbury opposed the motion petition had been presented to the house of lord Auckland, and contended that the against three of the judges of the Com-proceedings of the house had been common Pleas, which the house ordered them pletely regular. In this opinion he was to answer. In the answer lodged, these seconded by lord Redesdale. judges refused to plead the merits of the Lord Auckland defended the positions case unless when called before a legal tri-laid down by lord Grenville, by recapitulabunal. They denied the jurisdiction of ting the arguments which he had formerly their lordships, and maintained that the adduced in support of his motions, calling them before the house was contrary Earl Carisfort followed on the same to the established law of the land. On side, and deprecated, in strong terms, the considering the matter, after taking the idea of subjecting the judges to a species opinion of the other judges, the house of control from which every other subcame to be of the same mind, and the ject of this country was exempt-thereby matter was dismissed. rendering them the tools of the minister of the day.

The Lord Chancellor recapitulated the arguments which he had formerly adduced The Earl of Suffolk maintained the nein support of the contrary opinion; main-cessity of resorting to the opinion of the