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but the privileges of parliament were to be , mode in which that principle is to be reduasserted by them in that mode which they ced to practice. I think the explanation ! thought most likely to establish and preserve have now given is sufficient to remove all them. The noble lord was undoubtedly that apprehension on which the hon. gent. carus amicis, and he had no objection that grounds his motion, and surely it would be he should long remain so; but it was as true, but an act of common liberality to the that he was no longer idoneus patriæ; and, noble lord and his numerous friends to therefore, he thought it necessary that the proceed in the way most agreeable to temhouse should declare so. If it was under- perance and moderation. I trust, therestood that the noble lord should not be ap- fore, the hon. gent. will not persist in pointed to any place of trust and confidence, pressing the house to a division on his as long as the resolutions agreed to on Mon- motion. day remained on the journals, that may be Mr. For begin by adverting to the manurged as an argument against the adoption ner in which the motion had been spoken of of his hon. friend's motion ; but, after what by the hon. gent. (Mr. Banks) on the same had passed, it was his opinion that the house if bench. The hon. gent. allowed that the it wished to be consistent with itself should present motion was a corollary from the agree to the motion foran address to his resolution of Monday, and declared that if majesty

it had been put from the chair immediately The Chancellor of the Exchequer.-As after the other resolutions were passed, he the right hon. gent. has thus required some must in consistency have given it his supspecific explanation, and it appears to be port. He wished to know, why he inight the wish of several other gentlemen that I not equally vote for the motion now, since should give some sort of pledge on the whatever argament existed for the motion subject of the noble lord's return to power, at that time, remained now in full force ? I rise to say a very few words, solely for The only reason which induced a postponethe purpose of explanation, and not with ment of the motion then, was the lateness the view of at all arguing the question. of the hour, and that was the only consideWhat I now say, I take it for granted, ration which induced him to recommend to then, will not preclude me from again his hon. friend not to submit his motion addressing the house, if the debate should till the next meeting of the house. He be continued. It is my wish that the noble had frequently seen and complained of the lord should be treated as far as possible inconveniencies of hurrying through inwith those feelings of liberality, and if portant motions at a very late hour, and such a pledge as that which the right hon. as some debate was, naturally to be esgent. who has just sat down had alluded | pected on so interesting a subject, he was to could prevent the necessity of persisting anxious that every gentleman should have in the motion, I am sure that every an opportunity of delivering his sentiments. legitimate object would be accomplished. He had said, that among other advantages I have no hesitation at all, accordingly, in which would attend the delay would be that of saying, that all idea of the noble lord's giving the ministry an opportunity of proreturn to power is completely annihilated, perly performing their duty; but he never and that no danger whatever need be appre- even hinted that the identical motion which hended from this quarter. When I make this his hon. friend now submitted to the house frank declaration, I only wish it to be would not be brought forward. understood that this is not to be understood port of the hon. the bill was, thereas continuing in force in case the resolutions fore, now lost, it was entirely lost, because his of Monday should, on future inquiries, be hon. friend and himself had proceeded on a found to have been premature, and should pledge that the motion would be adopted as an accordingly be erased from the journals of obvious corollary from the Resolutions, and the house. In any other case but this, I that, viewing it in this light, they had yielded think it is absolutely impossible that any to the argumentum ad vericundiam.—After minister should ever think of recommending these introductory observations, Mr. Fox the noble lord to a share in his majesty's proceeded in substance as follows :--The councils. After this declaration, I do think right hon. gent. who spoke second in the that the motion of the hon. gent. might be debate, has delivered himself in a manner dispensed with, without at all losing sight so extraordinary and injudicious, that it is of the object he professes to have in view. really hardly worth while to take notice of The house are now agreed as to the e gene- | his observations. The resolutions of the ral principle, and they enly differ as to the house on Monday nig!it, !ecih so completely

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to have irritated the right hon. gent. and mination. Mr. Trotter has not been forso fully to have overpowered his mind, that mally condemned by the house, for we have he has this evening taken an opportunity of found him guilty only collaterally, our resothrowing forth his indignation without lutions on Monday evening being exclusively providing himself with any grounds on directed against lord Melville. Perhaps, sir, which to exercise it. He has chosen to the right hon. gent. was alarmed by the imattack, without the slightest appearance of pression made by our proceedings, (and they truth, my learned and lion. friend (Mr. were well calculated to make an impression G. Ponsonby) as the author of arbitrary and on persons like the right. hon. gent.,) and by despotic doctrines, and on this I shall not a sudden impulse of feeling thought it most long detain the house after what my learned prudent to discharge Mr. Trotter without and hon. friend has said, in so satisfactory a further delay. I cannot impute this decision

The right hon. gent. accuses my to any other principle, for all the reasons hon. and learned friend of arbitrary doctrines, that operated for retaining Trotter for sevebecause he says, that a person proved by ral months back still continue in force. evidence to have been guilty of a most cor- The next feature in the very extraordinary rupt use of the public money, should at least speech of the right hon. gent. were the arbe suspended from his office till the charges guments he used for the lenient application against him be fully investigated. Now, all of our resolutions against lord Melville, and that I have to say on this is, simply, that if the circumstances on which this lenity is to such doctrine be arbitrary, the most emi- | be founded. Perhaps, in what I am now nent lawyers in the kingdom have never about to say, the right hon. gent. may think been backward to promulgate it. It is a me bitter and rancorous, but, in spite of doctrine universally acknowledged and acted this, I feel myself called on to say that I on in all the relations of life. When we shall never sit in this house and patiently hear or read of a servant, or a steward sus- | hear these extravagant panegyrics on lord pected of peculation or any other breach of Melville's public conduct. I a1:1 at a loss trust, and not merely suspected, but where to find what are the circumstances actually confessing guilt, we of course order which are to incline us so powerfully to them to quit the office where the grounds of mercy. What particular claimis does he possuspicion arese, conceiving that persons so sessto induce the house to pass over his aggrasituated are utterly unwortlıy of trust. But, vated offence with a comparatively trifling perhaps the right'hon. gent. meant to take punishment? Is this motive to lenity to be up the business of the Tenth Report, and found in the eagerness which his lordship has was therefore unwilling to incur the charge ever shewn to heap up emoluments, and to of prejudice by the discharge of Mr. Trotter systematize corruption? Is it in the gift of before the trial took place. Under what the chamberlainship of Fife granted to his circumstances is it that the right hon. gent. wife, with arrears to a vast amount, procured determined to retain Mr. Trotter in the im- under false pretences? Is it in procuring a portant office of paymaster of the navy ? year ago fifteen hundred a year in addition, He had heard that before the commissioners not, sir, to the salary of first lord of the adhe refused in some cases to answer questions miralty, for I know that is very inadequately at all, and in others had given equivocating paid, but in addition to his salary as lord prireplies. He had heard that he not only refused vy scal for Scotland ? But, sir, the right to answer questions to which, supposing him hon. gent. lays a great deal of stress on his innocent, the reply was quite obvious, but discovering no political or party partialities in he had known Mr. Trotter to have used the appointment of officers, either for the every effort to retard the investigation of the naval or military service. I deny, sir, that commissioners, and after all tiis previous there is the least merit in this supposed imknowledge, the right hon. gent, retains him partiality. It is what every minister, whatin his employment as paymaster. ' What, erer he is, is obliged to preserve an appearthen, is the reason for this most extraordi- ance of, as an open dereliction of it would nary conduct? It is, sir, that Trotter's case be attended with instant disgrace. I need was sub judice, and the right hon. gent. not remind the house that lord North sent does not wish to prejudge him on his trial. sir Charles Saunders and admiral Keppel to The right hen. gent. has this evening decla- Faulkland Islands, though that expedition red that Trotter is dismissed, when he is as unfortunately failed. Indeed party distincmuch sub judice as lie has been at any period tions were almost always from necessity since the commissioners finished their exa- overlooked. But, sir, I cannot hear the



right hon. gent. stating that the noble lord | to whom they were naturally so strongly atwas free from party violence, without re- tached. Sir Charles Grey and sir John Jarminding the house of one or two circum- vis, were selected for a very difficult service stances, which demonstrate the existence of in the West-Indies, which they performed party spirit in all its most intolerant and dis- | with gallantry. Some misunderstanding, gusting features. I shall mention one, sir, however, arising, they returned, and which fell within my own knowledge, and charge was preferred against them in this 'which will fully illustrate my position. At house. If I recollect right, there were three a period of the late war, when the danger of divisions on the subject, when the minoinvasion was supposed to be at the height, rity were suecessively thirteen, fourteen, and when offers of voluntary service were eager- seventeen, and this was the formidable phaly accepted, a numerous and loyal body of lanx which the noble lord had so much merit men in Tavistock made a tender of their in combating. I take it for granted that he services. The tender was refiised by this self believed the charge to be false ; and it he did same moderate lord Melville, on the sole believe it to be unfounded, what merit had ground, for 110 other could be alleged, that he in defending the gallant officers? It was the corps, when raised, was to be com- no more than an indispensible duty to those manded by the late duke of Befüril. It whom he had employed on a difficult service, may perhaps be imagined, that my feelings which they executed with promptitude, viat the recollection of the deceased are so gour, and success. If this be merit, it is strong as to hurry me into some degree of impossible to say, sir, how far the line of exaggeration ; but I solemnly protest that I obligation may be extended.-An hon. gent. am stating the matter precisely as it lappen- under the gallery (Mr. Samuel Thornton), ed. And yet, sir, we are to hear of lord has given a curious reason for voting for the Melville's moderation and perfect freedom resolutions on Monday night, on which it is from all party spirit. There is another cir- impossible for me not to make a few obsercumstance, which also pretty strongly illus- vations. He says, that he voted for the motrates his lordship's forbearance and superio- tion, conceiving the noble Jord guilty of a rity to any of the workings of the angry pas certain degree of negligence and inattention. sions. It is well known that the dean of the I confess I am utterly astonished at such a faculty of advocates in Edinburgh is general- declaration, after attending to the language ly the most eminent person in the profes- of our resolution, that the noble lord had sion, and that it is seldom customary to in- been guilty of a gross violation of an act of terfere with him from any political consider- parliament, and a high breach of duty. ations. Yet this mild and moderate lord | Surely, sir, this heavy charge is not to be Melville actually did interfere, and by em-confounded with inattention and negligence. ploying all the influence of government å- How the hon. member could have misundergainst the hon. Henry Erskine, a gentleman stood them, is to me incomprehensible, as confessedly the most eminent at the Scotch they were particularly objected to on the bar, was actually dispossessed of a situation other side of the house. With respect to the which he had for many years held with the resolutions, it appears to me that they comgreatest honour and credit. So much, sir, plete the criminal part of the charge against for the boasted liberallity of the noble lord, the noble lord, and I am not at present for which we are called on to look to for a mo- pressing any further proceedings in that way. tive to influence our decision!--As to the fa- If the attorney general is to proceed against vour bestowed on two noble lords, on which him for refunding the money derived from the right hon. gent rested so much stress, I profits of money misapplied, this will be by entirely agree with my hon. friend near me civil, and not by criminal action, for reco(Mr. Grey) in every one of his observations.

the The right hon. gent, says, that my two hon. civil actions. The same observation will apfriends must possess more than Spartan virtue ply to any action for recovering grants obto be able to follow that line of accusation a- tained under false pretences. I have the less gainst the noble lord which they had pursued. objection to press ihe motion in the mean If extraordinary exertions in virtue were re- time, on the grounds of the pledge which quired, I do not know any men in whom they the rt. hon. gent. has this niglit so distinctly would be more readily found than in my hon. given to the house. I find, sir, after a carefriends. But I must beg leave to say, that ful examination, that during his majesty's they are under no obligations to the noble lord long reign, now a period of nearly forty-five for the defence he made of those relations, years, only the late duke of Devonshire and


is always ranked



myself, have been dismissed his majesty's | doors for a long period of time, and that it councils, and I assure you, sir, we want no will be agitated over and over again. It is such person as the noble lord to be our asso- materially connected with other abuses, and ciate. I had almost forgotten Mr. Grattan, involves the dearest interests of the country. who had the like fortune in Ireland. I be- It should be remembered, that Great Britain lieve the representatives of the late duke of is at present involved in a struggle which Devonshire would have no objection, and I occasions considerable ferment in the pubam sure I should be proud in his joining our lic miud; and therefore the public ought to small circle. None of us could, however, be convinced that substantial justice is done be proud of any connexion with such a man to them. Neglect on this topic will enable as lord Melville has shewn himself to be those who are inimical to monarchical gothroughout his whole career of life. I have vernment to draw a line of distinction besaid, sir, that I would not now press the tween the monarchical part of the constitumotion to a discussion, in consequence of tion and the house of commons; they feeling the right hon. gent.'s pledge, but I should no mark of disapproval from his majesty be grieved indeed to see the resolutions pass- similar to that expressed by this house. I ed without being followed by some lasting warn ministers not to leave it possible for result. Such a work as that which we on such language to be held. Let them conMonday accomplished must not be suffered sider it as a question involving the dearest to pass away unimproved. From one end of interests of the country, and the honour of the empire to the other the people will re- the sovereign whom they serve. Trusting, joice in the hope that a better system is about therefore, that ministers will do their duty, to be adopted, and we must not let their just I have no objection that the motion should expectations be disappointed. It is necessary be withdrawn, in the confidence of a more for us by making lord Melville a signal mark complete and satisfactory explanation and of the vengeance of this house to shew the conclusion at a future day. country that we are indeed their representatires ; that we are determined equally to Mr. Wilberforce said, that perhaps there watch over their property and their liberties. never was a time when parliament were The public have received our work with the called upon to interfere in a matter of such purest gratitude, but is there no part of this importance as on the present occasion, and great work to belong to the government ?- more important resolutions than those which Is his majesty to have no opportunity of ma- passed on a former night, were never agitated nifesting his paternal interests on the subject? in that house. As guardians of the constiIn what situation do we leave our sovereign? tution, the house were met there to defend The people applaud us in the warmest it from any inroads that might be made terms. They say the house of commons upon it, and he considered the resolutions have taken up our cause againt the whole which had been recently adopted as the host of contractors and peculators. The most likely way to prevent danger to the house of lords may do the same ; and shall constitution of the country, from the abuse not our beneficent sovereign have an op- of extraordinary power lodged in the hands portunity of expressing the warm interest of an individual. It behoved parliament to he takes in every plan for alleriating the bur- interfere whenever the public trust was dens and improving the condition of his abused or misapplied, and they should take people ? I admire this house as the corner every occasion to punish the offenders. This 'stone of the constitution as the source of all was the foremost, of its duties. It was his reforms and improvements--as the balanceby opinion, and he mentioned it with defewhich the constitution is kept in purity and rence, that it was the duty of parliament rigour. But I do not wish to exclude the to inquire into all public abuses, and to fol. monarchy from its proper share in every be-low up their resolutions by a minute invesneficent work. ị think our resolutions tigation. He had declared his opinion on ought to be presented to the throne. Should this matter on a former night, and he was the house of lords also do the same thing, perfectly satisfied with the sentiments he his majesty might thus be prevented from had delivered. When he voted the night expressing his dissatisfaction on the subject, before last, it was from a strong sense of to the great prejudice of the people of Eng- public duty, and his desire to maintain the land. Is that the situation in which minis- character and reputation of that house. He ters ought to leave their sovereigu ? The came down to the house this night without house may depend upon it, that this question any expectation of a measure similar to that will be a subject of consideration out of proposed by the hon. gent., being brought forward. He had not had any communi- they were not followed up by some motion cation with a single individual upon the like the present; at the same time he subject; and he confessed it was not with thought that the house should not be too out some surprise, that he heard such a precipitate in their steps; and he was not measure brought forward at the present time. sure that it was adviseable to press it forward He did not say that he should oppose the so rapidly as was proposed by the hon. expediency of the measure at some future gentleman. period, and vote against it, but he should Mr. David Scott.-Sir, I merely rise to not vote for it at this time. An hon. gent. express some reasons which I should hope had said, that the present motion was a di- would, in some degree, operate with the rect corollary of the resolutions of a former hon. mover to withdraw the present motion. night. What occasion then was there for I should previously apologize to the house any delay, and why did not the present mo- for intruding, while under such severe intion immediately follow the former resolu- disposition, as I fear will scarce enable me tions ? Upon a conviction of the necessity to make myself heard. Sir, the hon. gent. of the vote he then gave, he might have who brought forward the resolutions on felt it his duty then to have supported this. Monday, and other gentlemen on the same But, at the same time, he thought circum- side of the question, used as their strongest stances had, since then, been considerably argument, that the public looked to the virchanged, by the resignation of the noble tue and dignity of the house for immediate lord, whoni we were informed, had since justice, and for such severe resolutions as retired from office. He had heard, with then were moved. The resolution being considerable pain, the sentiments delivered then carried respecting lord Melville, I by a right hon. gent. (Mr. Canning); and mean to say no more upon it, except that, he felt the dangerous consequences that were God knows, the public must think it suflikely to ensue upon the avowal and main- ficiently severe. If the present one protenance of such pernicious principles. He posed was carried, what would the public felt as strongly as that right hon: gent. the say to it? They would, sir, instead of asimpropriety of acting from party motives, cribing it to justice, to virtue, and a proper and he strongly censured such as did. But dignified conduct in the house, ascribe it to the right hon. gent. argued thus : “ because what the hon. gent. below me (Mr. Fox), I vote for you, you must in return vote for has so much dwelt upon, bitterness and me.” This, he thought, such an accom

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say, this noble lord, modation as was calculated to defeat the after full forty years of most meritorious ends of justice. He thought it was a proof services to the state, and most of these in of honourable confidence, when a minister the highest situations, has had a very unemployed persons that differed from him in merited return, severe in the extreme, so sentiment; and he could not but commend much so, that all these measures taken by the noble lord, and every other person who the house, must certainly have arisen, not acted in the same manner. The hon. mem- from public virtue, but from a most perber concluded, by entreating the hon. mover severing vindictive spirit. Sir, this concluof the motion, not to do away the happy sion is the more natural when we look to the effect of the vote of the former evening, by character of that noble lord throughout the attempting to go farther than some, he was country. As to his being concerned in any persuaded, would think it their duty to ac- sort of peculation, it is totally out of the company him. Governed by no popular question. No man whatever, I conceive, feeling, he woald not say, whether he would could believe a thing of the sort. There is or would not vote for the measure, but no man that has the honour of his acquaintwarmly urged the hon. gent. to withdraw his ance, who does not know him to be inca, motion.

pable of benefiting by the public money, Mr. Fuller hoped the hon. gent. would or by any other thing not perfectly honoursift the matter to the bottom, and not allow able. Such suspicion could scarce arise in the depredators on the public to go unde- the mind of any person, as indeed being tected and unpunished. If there were a directly contrary to the habits of his life. grain of ipecacuanha or of emetic tartar in No man has ever valued money inthe world, he trusted it would be adminis- deed, from what we all know, if he had tered to the delinquents, to oblige them to chosen to benefit by the public money, he disgorge their ill-gotten gains. The pro- might have had millions. On the contrary, ceedings of Monday would be nugatory if those who have the pleasure of kuowing




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