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concern or regard. In retaining him in with success. In the other house of parthe situation which he now holds, I looked liament, however, it was introduced on the only to the equity of the business. I could suggestion of the lord chancellor, and when not reconcile it to my ideas of justice to I have said this, I have surely said enough disiniss one against whom no decision to shew that the clause was not meant to of this house had taken place; against be an idle, unmeaning provision; but an whom no proof of criminality, so far as active, positive regulation, on which every the use of the public money is con- individual appearing before the commiscerned, has been even attempted to be sioners had a fair right to act. Wilson established. He indeed refused to answer did take advantage of the clause, and in certain questions from the commissioners so doing, only did what almost any man of naval enquiry, but on what grounds did would have done under such circumstances. his refusal rest? It was expressly under Though only himself an instrument, he the idea that his answers would subject him was sensible that his answers might bring to certain pains and penalties; not that he him into an unpleasant situation, which participated of any money improperly ap- therefore he prudently avoided. In such plied, but that he acted as the deputy of conduct there was no criminality, since, a person whom a vote of the house had while the individual exercised a right which declared guilty of a misapplication of the the law allowed him, the public sustained public money. In all these transactions no loss. This, sir, is the view which the Wilson was merely the deputy, merely the best consideration of the subject has suginstrument to carry forward the designs of gested, and, acting on these principles, I another. True it is, he filled up drafts in the have not thought it my duty to dismiss absence of his principal, but it was impos- Mr. Wilson from the situation which he sible for him, while he continued in the holds in my office. This house has hitheroffice, to refuse such an employment. He to decided nothing on the case of Wilson, might indeed have resigned, but nothing and, therefore, I have not felt it my duty short of this could have superseded the to dismiss him from his present employnecessity of the conduct to which so much ment. When the house does express such blanie is now attached. Having then offi-a determination, it will undoubtedly be my ciated as a deputy, Wilson very naturally duty to bow to it with all suitable respect; refused to answer questions to which he but, till that opinion is expressed, I shall knew that punishment might be applicable, continue to follow that line of conduct and to which, under a clause of an express which appears to me alike consistent with act, he was entitled to refuse any reply. justice and humanity. I am sensible, that Surely, sir, it will not be contended by the in following this course, I subject myself gentlemen on the other side, that the to a great deal of odium and abuse. My clause, under which Wilson refused to an- conduct is ascribed to the most dishonourswer the commissioners, was intended to able motives; my refusal to dismiss Wilson be an absolute nullity. It was certainly is branded with the opprobrious epithet of intended for some purpose, or it never protection of convicted guilt. Seeing the would have been adopted. It was de-matter, however, as I now see it, I shall signed for the protection of those who, endure all this odium and reproach. When though conscious of no moral delinquency, this house shall declare their opinion might, under particular circumstances, have fairly, it will be my duty to submit to it; been guilty of a legal crime. Such was exactly the situation in which Wilson stood in the whole of this business. Looking to the transaction in a moral view, looking to him as not deriving the slightest advantage from any misapplication of the public money, he had no more to do with it than the pen which he used, than the very ink which he used for those drafts by which the transfer was effected. Let me remind the house too, that the clause was not introduced into the bill on light authority. I contended for it strenuously here, but my exertions were not crowned VOL. IV.

till that period arrives, Wilson shall not, in the absence of any proof of his guilt, be dismissed from his situation. I shall never, either by my voice or by my conduct, patronize the tyrannical, despotic principle of punishment previous to conviction. Having said so much in answer to the hou. member opposite, I have only to say, that I shall not oppose the motion.

Mr. Fox, in explanation, maintained that the right hon. gent. had totally misrepresented his argument. He had not asserted that the conduct of the right hon. gent. as treasurer of the navy, was any 2 C

aggravation of the particular libel in ques- make it a fair subject of prosecution, and tion, but he insisted that the particular if it really was of that magnitude it was circumstances in which the house were surely expedient that any proceedings conplaced, rendered it highly necessary to sequent on it should not be carried by acwatch over the dignity and honour of their clamation. As the affair now stood, to proceedings, and not permit them wan-agree immediately to the hon. gent.'s motonly either to be opposed or insulted. In alluding to the case of Wilson, he had meant clearly to explain to the house his opinion, that when men in high offices in the state, acted as the protectors of those against whom strong accusations existed, it became a matter of necessity that every attack on the character of the house, should be carefully looked to and signally punished. As he was up, he could not help remarking, that there was a very great distinction betwixt the right of a person to refuse answering certain questions before parliamentary commissioners, and the propriety of continuing those persons in office after such a refusal had taken place. It was surely a strong proof that all was not right when an individual was afraid of the consequences arising from a plain question, and yet it was to such a plain question that Wilson refused to give a direct answer.

tion, would carry with it an air of precipitation which he wished to mark no part of the proceedings of the house. These observations he applied to the motion inmediately before the house, but it was necessary for him to advert to other topics, which had been introduced into the debate. He thought his right hon. friend, the treasurer of the navy, had been very unjustly attacked for retaining Wilson in his situation. Doubtless, Wilson was legally guilty; but he was morally innocent, and therefore in refusing to discharge Wilson, his right hon. friend drew the proper distinction. Wilson refused to answer certain questions, but in this no criminality was established. He acted under an express clause of an act of parliament, and he was besides protected by that general benevolent provision of our common law, that no man is bound to give evidence against himself, and that no judge has a The Attorney General rose, not, as he right to enforce questions from which declared, to trouble the house with many punishment of a very severe nature may observations. There were, however, a arise. The house would recollect the cirfew remarks which he thought it his duty cumstances under which this clause was to throw out, in consequence of what had introduced. He had himself thought it fallen from the gentlemen on the other unnecessary on the precise principle which side of the house. He confessed he was he had now stated, that the humane spirit not surprised that the hon. mover thought of our laws rendered it superfluous. this the most favourable moment for bring-Being introduced, however, it was surely ing forward the libel in question to the no matter of guilt that it was acted on, attention of the house. The opportunity and yet for the very act of Wilson, in was favourable, when the hon. gent. found availing himself of it; gentlemen blamed himself in a majority on a great question, his right hon. friend for not dismissing but he hoped, as his right hon. friend near him. With what justice this was done, he him had said, that when such motions left it to the fair judgment of the house to were brought forward they would be con- decide; the legislature meant the clause ducted with impartiality, Though he cer- as a clause of protection, and now the tainly did not mean directly to oppose the house were to be told, that the use of it motion, he did not wish the house to be was a proof of criminality. The legislature taken by surprise, and therefore he sug-never could have such an object in view, gested to the hon. gent. that he should and, therefore, Wilson was not, from his only in the mean time give it in the form silence, to be presumed guilty. of a notice, that thus all the members Mr. Rose, without opposing the motion, might have an opportunity of fully consi- rose principally with the view of vindicatdering the nature of the passage in ques-ing the conduct of his right hon. friend the tion. Ile thought it would be more consistent with the dignity of the proceedings of the house to act with this degree of temper and moderation. It was of importance to ascertain whether the libel was of that magnitude and importance as to

treasurer of the navy, from the aspersions which had been thrown out against him in the course of the evening. He thought his conduct respectingWilson was, in the highest degree, commendable, and afforded a striking contrast to the conduct pursued by a

pay-master of the forces at a distance off in the character of a servant of the public; time of rather more than thirty years. He and certainly such conduct as Wilson's on himself at that time did belong to the trea- his examination before us is much to be sury, and therefore what he was about to condemned. If questions are put, and state was the more to be relied on. He answers are thus to be refused-if inquiries recollected that two officers in the pay-respecting the application or mismanage. master's office were found guilty of gross fraud on the office with which they were connected. This appeared on a solemn examination by the lords of the treasury, who accordingly ordered them to be dismissed, and actions were instituted against them to recover their illegal gains in a court of law. One of them died before this process could be accomplished, but the survivor was actually cast in an action, and was confined in the King's Bench priA change of administration took place, and those defaulters were actually re-placed. He recollected that an hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Fox), who was now so clamorous against the continuance of Wilson in his situation, was violent against a proposition for condemning them, declaring, as far as he could remember, "Gracious God, will you condemn people without hearing them? Will you suppose them guilty without even listening to any proofs of their innocence?" He wished to know, then, on what principles the hon. gent. could reconcile his present conduct with his former appeals in favour of justice and humanity.

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ment of the public money are to be trifled with, there is no utility in appointing com missioners of naval or military enquiry. We have the head of a board who refuses us all information-we come to the deputy, and he is equally silent-and thus may we go through the whole range, and still no satisfaction is obtained. Wishing, then, that these difficulties should be removed, the commissioners certainly never can express themselves satisfied with the manner in which Wilson eluded their investigations. Thus much have I felt it my duty to say respecting this part of the subject; and before I sit down, I shall add an observation or two respecting the conduct of the right hon. treasurer of the navy. I do say then, and say it with confidence, that the right hon. gent. did not give our inquiries all those facilities which might have been expected. We did encounter difficulties of a pretty formidable kind, to which the dilatory proceedings of that right hon. gent. did not a little contribute.

Mr. Canning. I feel myself, sir, so personally alluded to by the hon. baronet, that I trust I shall be excused in rising Mr. For, in explanation, professed that again. I never stated that the commissio he had not at that time a perfect recol-ners of naval enquiry were, by means of lection of the transaction to which the subsequent information, satisfied with rehon.member alluded. If he recollected right, spect to the conduct of Wilson; what I said however, the two persons were, at the time was, that the explanation given to me upon the vote passed in the house, actually sub the subject would, I was confident, have judice. If, however, the hon. member had satisfied the commissioners with respect to any wish to push the matter farther, he, the person alluded to. I wish, however, for his part, was ready to discuss it on an- to know whether the commissioners have other occasion in all its features and rela- reported the whole of the statement given tions. in evidence by Mr. Wilson, aye or no? (Sir Charles Pole answered yes.) Mr. Canning was proceeding, when he was interrupted by

Sir Charles Pole.-The right hon. gent. the present treasurer of the navy, thought proper to assert on a former occasion, that certain explanations were given by Wilson to the commissioners, which satisfied them of the manner in which he had conducted himself during the examination, Now, sir, it is proper for me to state, that no such explanations ever took place, and so much the reverse of being satisfied were the commissioners, that they almost take shame to themselves for not ordering him to prison for the manner in which he gave his evidence. I think it necessary for me to make this declaration, standing as I do

Mr. Plumer, who begged leave to remind the right hon. gent. that the regular way of conducting business, was to address the chair, instead of that sort of imperious catechising in which the right hon. gent. seemed so desirous to indulge.

Mr. Canning again proceeded; I ask, sir, of the hon. baronet, whether the commissioners of naval enquiry have reported the whole of the correspondence which took place between them and the treasurer of the navy, aye or no? (Sir Charles Pole said, no.) I know, sir, they have not, and.

I shall to-morrow move for the whole of correspondence with the commissioners. that correspondence, or at least such parts He felt that he was bound to stand forward of it as are not contained in the report of in his own defence, and he did ask whether the commissioners. the whole of his correspondence had been Sir Charles Pole.-The commissioners of stated in the report? The answer was, naval enquiry reported, sir, all the answers No," and the house would judge whemade by Wilson. With respect to the cor-ther, in such case, his right hon. friend had respondence with the treasurer of the navy not some claim to their indulgence. It there is no objection to produce it; the had been said that his right hon. friend had only reason why the commissioners did not withheld from the commissioners papers state the whole of it was their desire not which it was necessary for them to possess, to overload the report. in order to prosecute their inquiry with Dr. Laurence defended Mr. Burke's con- success. If he (Mr. Gibbs) recollected duct, in re-instating Messrs. Bembridge and the report as far as it touched upon this afPowell. He complimented the speaker, fair, it went merely to shew that his right whom he considered as the abstract es- hon. friend had objected to certain forms sence of public virtue, on the truly patriotic of proceeding, and had taken the advice and constitutional vote which he gave on a of counsel whether he was bound to comformer evening. He could by no means ap- ply wtih the demands of the commissioners prove of the mode proposed by the Attor-in this respect. He did not question the ney-General, to defer the motion until the propriety of the demand of the commissiohouse should have regained its proper tone ners, but had merely had a view to the of moderation; it was nothing more than practicability of complying with it in cona project of the first law officer of the crown, sistency with a proper regard to the conveto get rid of the question entirely. Heniency of the public service. All the achad serious objections to the conduct of counts, however, had been made out but the right hon. gent. (Mr. Canning,) who one, and the papers had been presented to had taken the word of Mr. Wilson against the commission. But from the manner in the report of the commissioners of naval which gentlemen spoke of the act of parenquiry, and who, instead of facilitating, liament, and from the circumstance of one as he should have done, the enquiry, had of the commissioners having stated that thrown obstacles, altogether unexpected, they took shame to themselves for not in the way of the commissioners. having imprisoned Mr. Wilson, one would think that persons were speaking of different acts. A clause had been introduced into this act, by which no person was bound to criminate himself. Yet it was contend

Mr. Canning maintained his right to put the question with respect to Mr. Wilson, by the information he had he defended the questions he had put, with respect to himself, by what he knew of his own know-ed, that those ought to be imprisoned who ledge. He begged his hon. and learned friend to suspend his judgment till he should have seen the whole correspondence, which he would not have wished to bring forward, if he did not think it would clear bis conduct.

refused to answer questions that had this very tendency [gestures of dissent from the other side]. He was always very happy to be corrected if he was wrong, and from the gestures which he observed, he was inclined to think that he was inistaken. But The Solicitor-General observed, that some he had certainly understood, that this was topics, certainly not in an immediate man- the meaning of what had been stated. per connected with the question before the But what was the use of this clause, if it house, had been alluded to in the course of were not intended that persons should avail the debate. The learned doctor had re-themselves of it? Upon their construction, proached his right hon. friend near him, it would be entirely nugatory, for the mowith catechising and putting questions to ment an answer was refused upon its authe hon. admiral who was at the head of thority, guilt was to be presumed. He could the commission; but it could not be out by no means take upon himself to say that of the recollection of the house, that his under no circumstance could a person inright hon. friend had been pretty smartly cur any legal guilt without having derived attacked, and was therefore in some mea-any private advantage from the circumsure called upon to make a reply. He had stance he meant to conceal. Undoubtedly been severely attacked, or at least severe al- it might be possible to incur guilt by enlusions had been made to the subject of his deavouring to shelter others, and in varie

ous other ways; but he would be glad to Mr. Serjeant Best thought the conduct know, how it was possible to take advan- of the treasurer of the navy, in not distage of this clause, and shelter himself charging Wilson, highly reprehensible. under it, except by refusing to answer It had been argued that Wilson merely such questions as might involve him in pains and penalties? What explanation could he give? He could not enter upon explanations, because that, in effect, would be exposing himself to the very charge which he wished to avoid. But there was another thing to which he wished to advert: his right hon. friend had been accused of braving the house of commons; but surely, Mr. Wilson was not to be confounded with those on whom the house of commons had already passed a vote of censure. If these resolutions did not touch upon Mr. Wilson, how could his right hon. friend be said to brave the house of commons? From the gestures on the other side, it appeared that he might be mistaken.

acted according to the instructions of Trotter, as if this were any excuse for his conduct. If he had acted properly, he ought to have disclosed the nefarious proceedings which were going forward, and by such a disclosure much of the evil which was now brought to light would never, have been accomplished. It was also contended that Wilson, in availing himself of the clause in the act, not to answer questions to criminate himself, did only what was naturally to be expected. This, however, had nothing to do with the question, since nobody doubted his right to avail himself of the clause, if he thought his conduct required it. What was complained of, however, and with justice, was, that the treasurer of the navy retained in his office a person who had refused to answer some questions which an innocent man could have answered with the greatest safety. If a person had a servant, or a steward, and wished to ask some questions respecting the state of his affairs, and could obtain no satisfactory answer, what would be his conduct? He might think it very right for the servant not to answer questions to criminate himThe Solicitor General in continuation, self, but he would also think it highly expressed his surprize how that conduct necessary to dismiss oue from his em could be called braving the legislature ployment who had such extraordinary which had been expressly sanctioned by secrets. The learned serjeant also conan act of the legislature. Who had bra-demned severely the conduct of the Treaved the legislature? Not his right hon.surer of the navy for the difficulties which friend, for he had only refused to remove he had thrown in the way of the enquiries from his office a person who had taken advantage of a clause in an act which the legislature had passed. Was it he who availed himself of the provision in the act that had braved the legislature? He could un-tain papers, and it was not a little singular derstand any thing but that.

Mr. For here interrupted the hon. and learned gent. and said that he could not be explaining every moment; but that, in the present instance, he had not said that the right hon. gentleman had braved the house of commous. He had only said that he had braved the opinion of the house of commons, and he would now go farther, and say, that he had braved the legislature.

Sir Charles Pole submitted it to the house whether the commission would not have attempted, in vain, to accomplish the ends for which they were instituted, while the person who was at the head of the office into the abuses of which they were enquiring, refused to them the means of information they called for. He denied that he had employed any unnecessary warmth. This was the first time that he had in the house given his opinion of the Tenth Report, and what he had said was from conviction, and not from any motives of personal hostility to the right hon, treasurer of the navy.

of the commissioners. It was as far back as the tenth of last July that the commissioners issued a precept to the treasurer of the navy, calling on him to produce cer

that two months elapsed before any answer was returned. What, in the mean time, was the conduct of the treasurer of the navy? Why truly, he could make no return to the commissioners till he had taken the advice of his majesty's attorney and solicitor general. This the learned gent. maintained, was to the commissioners as acting under the express sanction of parliament, extremely indecent and disrespectful. The treasurer of the navy, if he laboured under any difficulty how to act, ought to have applied to the commissoners for advice and instruction. It was not unknown to the house, that one of the commissioners was a member of the

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