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ever. He was glad the subject had been made to hiin; which statement; it correct, brought forward, because it would atford demanded of him this conduct as a member that hon. member an opportunity of making of that house; if the statement was incor. the whole case clear and publie.
rect, he was imposed upon, and improperly The Chancellor of the Exchequer said he made the instrument of bringing forward was desirous the papers moved for by the an unnecessary enquiry, in which event he hou. and learned gent. should be laid be- should be among the foremost to bring his fore the house, but be could not help re- informant before the house, for the purpose marking the manner in which this motion of receiving its censure; for those who was made. The hon. and learned gent. gave misinformation to members on such gave notice last night he should make this occasions, deserved censure. He undermotion, by statir:g that it was applicable to stood the right bon. gent. (Mr. Rose) to the counection between government and say, that the bon. member (Mr. Scott) Mr. Claude Scott, but he might have given had not employed the public money for an intimation of the ground of his motion, one moment. He was glad to hear it, and that those who wished to take a share in if so, be must have been greatly misinformthe discussion might be acquainted with ed. the nature of the transaction, as it was in- Mr. Rose said, he never was so absurd tended to be brought forward; but here as to bave said the hon. member never was a matter of ten years standing brought employed the public money in his hands forward without any such intimation, when for a moment, for it would have been a gentlemen might not have the subject fresh thing impossible for any man connected. in their memory. He was glad to observe, with government in a contract to have that however, that wbat had been hinted at by: said of him ; all he said was, that he had the hon. mover, as to the cause of his vot kept the public money for any consimotion, was likely to turn out to be totally derable time. unfounded.
Nr. Serjeant Best said, a month. Ar. For thought the conduct of his hon. Mr. Rose said he believed not a month, and learned friend in not giving a more or any thing like a month; but he spoke descriptive notice perfectly correct, and only from the best recollection he had on such as he would have observed himself in a subject which was ten years old; the inna similar situation, for had he made a pression of that recoliection was, that the speech on giving his notice of the motion, conduct of the hon. member (Mr. Scott) it would have been irregular in any other was perfectly correct and honourable. He member to answer that speech, however knew very little more of that hon. member, desirable it might be by sach member that beyond that contract with government, the speech should be answered. This than the hon. and learned gent, did.--The complaint, therefore, of a want of a further question was then put and carried, intiination of the hon, mover, was properly there be laid before the house an account a complaint that he had not been irregular." of such sales, delivered by Claude Scott,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, he esq. to government, and an account when did not wish that a speech might precede the produce of such sales were paid to gothe notice, but the general grounds of it vernment; also, that there be laid before would have been so far from being irregu- the house a copy of an account of corn lar that it would have only been confor- and flour, sold by the said C. Scott, esq. miable to custom in cases of this nature. to government, between the year 1795,
Mr. Grey maintained, that ample infor- and 1800, and all monies paid by him on mation of the nature of this motion had account of such sales; which were all orbeen detailed in the notice, as entered in dered." the order book, which be read.
[Irish Loan.) The house having resolve The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, he ed itself into a committee of ways and means, had not seen the book, which appeared to Mr. Foster said, he should only intrude contain sufficient notice.
upon the attention of the committee for a Mr. Serjeant Best justified himself as to few minutes. It would be recollected, that the distinctness with which he gave votice early in the present session he had stated, of this motion, as also for the motive with that a loan of 1,000,0001. would be prowhich he brought the subject forward ; it posed to be contracted for in Ireland for was to lay the foundation of an Enquiry, the service of that country; he had also He did this on a statement which was stated, that there was a sum of 800,0001.
due upon treasury bills, respecting which 481, and on further representation, to 48. he expressed a wish to reserve all discus- This offer had been received by the lords sion till a future day. He had now to state of the treasury in Ireland, subject to his to the committee, that he had proposed to approbation. He would shew by the letter raise a loan of 1,800,0001. in Ireland. of the bidders themselves, that they did not Offers had been made there, which were not consider any engagement made with them. accepted : offers were then made in this The letter stated, that they would abide country for the loan, which he had felt it by their offer, if they were indemnified for his duty to accept; and it was the contract any depression that may take place in the so made, that he had now the honour to stocks here before the return of the express submit to the committee. The terms of with his answer. This offer was made in the loan were,
Dublin on Monday the 16th. The letter of 1001. Long annuities ....$500
Messrs. Bogle, French, Burrows, and Can24). in the 5 per cents.. 1 4 0 ning, was answered by bim by an express, making together 61. 4s. the annual charge which arrived in Dublin on the Sunday folfor the loan; but in addition to this there lowing, stating, that their offer could not be was 4s. 10d. for the sinking fund on the 5 accepted. There was not in their letter, per cents. and 8s.4d. on the long annuities, nor in any one of the papers, one word making altogether a sum of 61. 175. 2d. that went to shew he was bound. The per cent. He trusted the committee would bidders merely said, they would abide by not consider the terms of the loan as dis- their offer if indemnified against possible advantageous to the public, when it was depression. Now they complained, and stated, that' for the loan of two millions said they had a right, merely because they and a half, which was raised in the early were not allowed the 13 per cent. bonus part of the session for Ireland, the annual they had carved out for themselves. He charge amounted to 61, 175.7d. The lat trusted this explanation would set his conter loan was not only made upon terms duct in a fair light. more favourable to the public, but it had Sir J. Newport expressed himself exthis further advantage, that a great part of tremely happy to hear the right hon. gent. it was in annuities, whereas the other give so truly satisfactory an account of this created a permanent debt. He would now, transaction. He had heard of the rumours with the permission of the committee, say that had been alluded to, but could not bea few words upon the reports which were lieve them, and it gave him the greatest circulated respecting the rejection of the pleasure to hear them so completely done offers inade in Ireland for this loan. The of- awayHe bighly approved the loan have fers made by the persons who wished to con- ing been made in England in preference to tract for the loan in Ireland were as follows: Ireland, because it could not fail to be
Annual charge to the nation. eventually truly advantageous to that part 100, 3 per cent. stock £3 10 ( of the empire. In a poor country like Ire48, 5 per cent. ditto
2 0 land the great object should always be to 148, Sinking Fund, 1 per cent. 1 9 7 bring capital into it. Here would, there
fore, be nearly 2 millions of capital sent
7 7 7 thither, and that Irish capital, which, if He had already stated, that the annual taken as a loan, would be locked up for charge on the present loan was 61. 175. 2d. that purpose, might now be much more so that there was an actual saving of 10s. beneficially employed by being vested in 5d. per cent. The difference also on the trade, in the promoting and encouraging . capital of the debt created would be im- manufactures, in the improvement of agri, inense. If the offers made in Ireland had culture, and in many other modes which been accepted, the subscribers would have that part of the kingdom is deficient in at had a bonus of no less than 13 per cent present, and to render which inost flourishand therefore it was not surprising, that ing and prosperous, capital is only wanted. where the advantage to them was so great, He allowed, there were some things atthey wished to have their offer consi- tending this mode of raising money by loans, dered as a contract. He would now ex- which he did not altogether approve, such plain to the house the whole of the trans- as being connected with a sinking fund, and action, as far as related to the offers made other inconveniences; but it was but fair in Ireland. The first offer made there was and right to consider every matter of this for 49, 5 per cents.; this being represented kind in all its bearings, and to put up with as unreasonably higli, it was reduced to the bitters, for the sake of enjoying the
HOUSE OF LORDS.
sweets. Upon the whole, he thought the the interests of those persons affected by right hon. gent. had conducted the busi- the bill, as far as the same could be done ness in a manner highly creditable to him without trenching on those priuciples, and self, and very advantageously to the on that system, upon which the institutions country, and it was with infinite satisfac- were hitherto introduced. The important lion he gave his approbation to it. The consideration of a due connection between resolutions were then read and agreed to ; the properties of the laity and the eccles the house resumed, and the report ordered siastical establishments of the country, to be received on Monday.--Adjourned. made also a part of the present subject.
How far giving an unlimited power to the
universities to acquire advowsons, would Monday, April 29.
operate with respect to that consideration, [MINUTES.] The earl of Oxford was was inatter for serious discussion. He resworn and took his seat.-Counsel were fur- peated, no practical inconvenience had hitber heard relative to the Scotch Appeal, therto been proved to exist. Cathcart, bart. v, the earl of Cassilis, viz. against conferring an unlimited power on Mr. H. Erskine in continuation on the the universities, though, under what had part of the respondent.--The bills upon been stated, he had no objection to open the table were respectively forwarded.
the door wider, and to extend the propor(UNIVERSITIES Advowson Bill.] The Lion of the number of livings from one order of the day being read for their lord- balf to three-fourths of the number of felships going into a committee on this bill, lows in the respective colleges. Nor did
Lord Sidmouth rose for the purpose of he object to other regulations being made, opposing the proceeding. It was with pain upon the same principle, such as augmenthe differed, and on topics of such pecu- ing the value of the present livings, &c.; liar importance as those involved in the but he was hostile to all innovations, measure in question, from the reverend which did not proveably proceed upon and learned prelate who brought forward sure and certain grounds. A more liberal the bill. It was said, it would be a boon provision made for those meritorious perto the universities. No persou could pos- sons, could, he thought, be obtained withsibly have a greater respect for these very |out having recourse to a sweeping repeal useful, learned, and respectable bodies, of all limitation whatever. Adverting to the than himself; yet he conceived that the present state of church livings in general, bill before the house would operate rather and the duties of parochial ministers, his as a boon to individuals belonging to those lordship thought the augmentation of the corporations, than to the institutions them- value of small livings would be highly beselves. Great stress was laid upon the in- neficial, as well as the erection of more conveniences produced by the restrictions churches in the populous parts of the counwhich the bill was intended to remove, but try, and in great towns, in many parts of be believed no proof whatever was brought the metropolis, in particular. With reforward of any practical inconvenience spect to the subject of the bill in question, he having taken place. The restriction had contended their lordships had by no means continued for more than half a century. sufficient information to proceed upon. It was enacted at the instance of that pro- He saw no immediate necessity for found lawyer and venerable magistrate, lord ceeding with the measure. Time, certainly, Hardwicke, who, no doubt, had thoroughly should be given for further enquiry. if, considered the subject before he proposed bowever, it should be the general sense of the restraining clause. In the former debate the house, that the bill shall speedily be on the subject, it was also said, the suc- committed, he hoped what he had suga cessiou to the livings was at present too gested, in the way of detailed regulation, slow for the beneficial purposes of the in- would be seriously considered by their stitution; but of this no proof was brought lordships; such as, that the extent of the forward, and, as the case stood, he was increased proportion of livings should not entitled to contend, were the restriction be suffered to exceed three-fourths, and removed, the succession would be too ra- the smaller livings augmented. Uuder pid. He was perfectly aware of the im- his present views of the question, what he portance of the subject to which these con- should propose was, that the bill should derations referred, and no one could be be postponed until next session, for the more willing to promote the comforts and purposes he bad mentioned. He would, Vol. IV.
therefore, propose to amend the question ties. He had not the least apprehension regularly before the house, hy omitting the on the score of too rapid & succession. word “ now," and inserting " this day 3 And, couvinced as he felt of the benefimonths."-On the question being put, cial tendency of the measure, he should
The Bishop of Oxford rose, and argued support the original motion. generally in support of the measure. He Lord Auckland, though lie professed himcontended that the proportion in which the self not unfriendly to the bill, yet was of restraint stood, by the existing law, was opinion that their lordships had not suffifallacious in the extreme. The knowledge cient information to go upon : a practical which their lordships had of the subject inconvevience was a matter capable of was sufficient for them to proceed upon. proof; let that be brought forward, and There was nothing in the bill, to interfere the amouot and respective value of the livwith the augmentation of the value of the ings in the hands of the different colleges smaller livings; the erection of churches, or should also be known. The funds of the a more suitable pension for the officiating universities may also be matter of proper clergy. With respect to the idea, tbat no consideration, for it was important to know practical inconvenience had hitherto re- how far they had the means of providing, sulted from the restraint; there was no ne- which they themselves held forth as a re. cessity of direct proof of it before themedy for the alleged grievance: there house; it was every day, and injuriously was no evidence whatever on these beads felt. An appeal to the colleges would soon before the house. convince on that head, particularly that of The Bishop of Oxford shortly observed, which the noble and learned lord was a he was in possession of some detailed inmember; abundant proofs of that could formation on thuse heads, did noble lords be found. He must, therefore, deprecate deem it necessary. any further postponement of the discus- Lord Auckland resumed. He contended sion.
for the propriety of having an account of The Archbishop of Canterbury observed, the number and value of livings in the gift that he conceived the principal objections of the different colleges, as some of those it of the noble viscount to the bill, to be, might be desirable to augment. The state first, an apprehension, that, were the ex- of their respective funds should also be isting restraint removed, the succession to known. One general rule could not prothe university livings would be too rapid ; perly be laid down for the whole. The and, secondly, that it would tend to de- means of soine colleges for providing for prive the laity of too great a degree of its members may be more than sufficient; that portion of patronage, which he con- of others, they may be inadequate. It ceived to be at present so beneficially vest was a subject on which they should not ed in them. With respect to the first ob-proceed to legislate blindly. It may, howjection, his grace observed, he conceived ever, be desirable to go into a committee the state of the funds of the universities on the bill, as that detailed mode of diswould operate as a sufficient check to any cussion may at least give them an idea of thing which might be feared, if too rapid. the precise natare of the necessary infur• With respect to the present state of the pa- mation. tronage of ecclesiastical livings, he should Lord Grenville in some degree agreed be extremely sorry to see it taken away with the noble lord who spoke last, in from numbers of those who at present en-deeming that the house was not possessed joyed it, and who so beneficially dispensed of sutlicient information : lie thought it, it, particularly members of that noble howerer, better to proceed with the bild, house. But there was another description and endeavour to get the necessary inforof patronage, which, they must all teel, mation, than to postpone the measure to had a very different tendency. lle alluded an indefinite period, without the least certo that, which was afloat in the market, tainty of procuring the necessary informaand every day bought and sold under cir- tion. It would be preferable to go into cumstances injurious to the establishment of the committee, to ascertain the precise 18the church, the interests of religion, and, ture of the information wanted, and adopt he believed, against the laws of the realm; measures to obtain it. The measure before the patronage of such persons might easily the house was, he contended, brought for be placed in better hands, and in none more ward on adequate parliamentary grounds. advantageously than those of the universi. The real merits of the bill, as it then stood,
resolved into this question, did there now people, and what was the consequence ? exist sufficient grounds for continuing the these persons either went to no church at restriction? With respect to the apprehen- all, or were constrained to frequent places şion of a rapid succession, he thought those of worship different from those of the persons who so worthily presided in the established religion. lle trusted these ditierent colleges would take care to pre- matters would be seriously considered by vent that; but he was inclined, upon the the legislature, and laken up at some fuwhole, to credit the assertion that the pre- ture period, and also the consideration of sent succession to the college livings was the number of small and inadequate livings, too slow, and in considering this part of and the impracticability of clerical resithe subject, the peculiarly strong claims of dence in many of these. those who were to be ameliorated by the The Bishop of St. Asaph contended, that bill, should be attended to. The question every thing that was advanced, were reuunder consideration was not of figures or sons for going into a committee on the bill; of numerical calculation, but of reason they were in possession of adequate inforing, feeling, and presumption. With re-mation, in order to proceed with the bill; spect to that salutary and beneficial con- and the legislature, when it originally laid nection which subsisted between the pro: on the restriction, was not informned, as his perty of the luity, and the religious estab- noble friend opposite contended the house lishments of the country, did he perceive should have been, or the proportion of the the least tendency in the bill tu militate numbers allotted would be very different; against the measure; but with a most re- he had no fears of too rapid a succession verend prelate, he thought it would have ever taking place; the colleges had not the a contrary tendency. He had no fears on means of affording an opportunity for that; that head, for eren did too great an ac- but, he observed, that the patronage of the cumulation of advowsous, or too rapid a universities was always honourably and be succession ensue, the legislature aight neficially exercised. hereafter interpose and check it, as it had The Lord Chancellor agreed with a noble already done. Many of the arguments of baron (Grenville), that the question before a noble viscount, he conteuded, operated them was rather one of general reasoning, for, instead of against going into a com- than proceeding upon particular informamittee. The restriction, at present, he tion. The original restriction did not apargued, operated unjustly, it referred pear founded on the state of the respective merely to the number of the advowsons, colleges, or the proportion would be very without in the least considering their re- different. In advancing this, he meant not spective value. This part of an ameliora- the slightest reflection on the name of that tion of the present system could but be great and venerable character who procousidered in a committee, in favour of posed it, whose name would be rememberwhich proceeding, everything advanced in ed as long as the law of England continued argument, that night, decidedly tended. to be known. That his position was well
Lord șidmouth explained, that what he founded, would clearly appear on comparhad said was, that there was no proofing the allotted number of livings, viz. one brought forward of the succession being half of that of the fellows of colleges in the too slow.
universities, with the actual number of per. Lord Auckland contended that wbere a sons in each college capable of being so begrievance was alleged, it should be estab- neficed. Some of these (referring, for exlished in proof; the case in the present in- ample, to that which he had the honour to stance was one of evidence and fact, an belong) had the entire number of their feladequate proof ought to be given. lows ecclesiastics, whereas others had not
The Bishop of London argued in favour half their number clerical men. How, of the measure, and urged the consideration therefore, could the allotted proportion of of such a bill as the present in a committee, one moiety apply equally or justly to both? as particularly necessary. Adverting to Me agreed with the observations of the the general state of parochial establish- rev. prelates, on the scandalous traffic for ments; he lamented there were so few pa-church prelerments, the extent and tendenrish churches in the western parts of the cy of which did not seem to have been fulmetropolis. Most of the chapels of ease y perceived by the illustrious author of the were private property, and afforded no ac- restriction, and which the noble and learncommodation for the lower orders of the ed lord strongly reprobated as of the niost