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HOUSE OF LORDS.
minister oaths. The bill was then read a third time and passed. Mr. Johnstone from the office of chief secretary of Ireland, presented Returns of all Compensations for
Tuesday, March 19. Boroughs, &c. which were ordered to be printed.--Mr. Francis gave notice of his (ROMAN CATHOLICS OF IRELAND.)-motion relative to India for Monday next, Lord Grenville acquainted their lordships, but on the suggestion of lord Castlereagh, that he should have, on Monday next, to deferred it till Monday se’onight.Mr. Rose present a Petition to the house, on the part presented Minutes of the privy council with of his majesty's Roman Catholic subjects in respect to licences for exporting goods to Ireland. He was aware that it was not France and Spain.-Mr. Foster moved the usual to give notices relative to the presen2nd reading of the Irish Drawback bill. tation of petitions; but that mentioned by After a few words from Mr. Dawson, Mr. him was upon a subject of so grave, weighKer, and Mr. Corry, the bill was read a 2nd ty, and important a nature, that he had taken time; as were likewise the Irish Excise the liberty previously to mention it. The Duty bill, the Irish Stamp Duty bill, the proceeding was not, he thought, likely to Irish Postage Duty bill, and the Irish Spirit induce any discussion, nor did he mean to Duty bill. --- On the motion of Mr. Steele, a say any thing then upon it; but, should any new writ was ordered for Bath in the room further motion or proposition be intended of lord Jolin Thynne, who had rendered to be brought forward upon the subject, due his election void, not having duly qualified notice would be given of such intention. himself by taking the oaths, &c.-Mr. Steele (CONDUCT OF JUDGE Fox.]- Lord obtained leave to bring in a bill to indem- Auckland adverted to the motions which he nify lord John Thynne for having sat and intended to make, namely, for a committee voted in the house, without having previ- to search for precedents of proceedings in ously qualified himself. The bill was ac- that house against individuals, upon comcordingly brought in, read a first time, and plaints made by peers upon their own state. ordered to be read a 2nd time to-morrow.- ments, founded upon information derived The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved, from others, and to consider how far it was that a committee be appointed to examine consonant with law for proceedings to be and report the joint charges of the United instituted in that house against individuals Kingdom of G. Britain and Ireland, from otherwise than upon petition or matter of Ist of Jan. 1801, to 1st of Jan. 1805; what record, in support of which motions, his proportion belonged to each country re- lordship argued at considerable length, spectively; what are the balances now due; The niode of proceeding hitherto adopte: and what would be the best mode in future was one which he highly disapproved in of ascertaining such balances at the expira- other points of view, beside those of its betion of each year. The motion was agreed ing productive to the parties of great ex. to, and a committee appointed for those pence, delay, and vexation. It would be purposes.-- The Chancellor of the Exche necessary, in some degree, to tread back the quer gave notice, that in the committee of steps they had taken, but did it appear to ways and means on Friday next, he should be consistent with the honour, the dignity, move for certain taxes, to supply the place and, above all, the correctness of their lord of the rejected Agricultural Horse tax. He ships' proceedings, he thought there could likewise gave notice, that he should move be no hesitation to do so. What he had to for rendering permanent the present tem- propose for the adoption of their lordships porary tax on wine.- Mr.Alexander brought would be resolved into various propositions; up the reports of the committees on the the first was, for the appointment of a comIrish Sugar Drawback, and on the Expiring mittee to search for precedents of cases of laws, which were agreed to, and bills or any charge brought forward of high crimes dered accordingly.--Mr. Alexander brought and misdemeanors against any individual by up the Report of the Committee on the a peer of the realm, upon his own personal Irish Drawback bill, which was agreed to. statement of facts, &c.; and how far it is -Mr. Huskisson obtained leave to bring in consistent with any law or statute, or usage a bill to repeal that part of an act of last of parliament, that house can proceed upon session which prohibited the issuing of Pro- matters so originated, unless upon matter of missory Notes on demand, under the value record, or by petition, or entertained as of 51. - Adjourned.
matter of privilege. Secondly, that sucks
committee should search for precedents of ments adduced by the noble lord, expressing any such charges being made against any his decided opinion, that, having gone so of his majesty's judges, previous to the far, it was a duty they owed to the public, Act of W. Ill. Also to enquire into pro- and to the learned judge against whom ceedings adopted on the ground of petitions, charges were made, to bring the investialtedging charges of high crime and misde- gation to a conclusion with as little delay meanour; and also whether charges pre- as possible; he therefore upon this ground ferred against any person proceeding from objected to the noble lord's motives, as individual assertion, can be, under the oper- tending to create unnecessary delay, He ation of the statute of H. IV. regularly or could not see what possible benefit could legally entertained or acted upon in that arise from a search after precedents of prohouse? In considering the general subject, ceedings previous to the act of W. III. as their lordships would have to consider what they could not apply to the case which was change has really been made in the situa- under the consideration of the house. As tion of the judges, by the acts applying to any precedents since, there were none, to them; and, with respect to the particular for to the honour of the judges, not a case before them, whether, with reference single instance had occurred since the passto the acts he alluded to, such a charge ing of that act, where it was necessary to could, regularly and properly, be made in recur to an address of both houses of parthat house? In arguing against the correct- liament to remove a judge. He would ask ness and propriety of the proceedings which how they could have proceeded otherwise had hitherto taken place, his lordship made than they had in the case of the learned frequent references to the provisions of the judge alluded to? It was his opinion, that Act of H. IV. and adverted to several cases supposing the charges to be true (with re-' which had obtained, of charges being made, spect, however, to their truth or falsehood, and of the line of proceeding adopted upon he wished it to be distinctly understood that them, which, he contended, bore him out he gave no opinion whatever) a scieri facias in saying, that such proceedings could not, would not have touched them, or affected properly, originate in that house. Refer the patent of the judge, as what he was ring to the acts respecting the judges, he charged with having done was not done in contended generally, that to act upon prin- the execution of his office, as a judge of the ciples contrary to what he had laid down, court of Common Pleas, but on a special would be to place the judges in a different commission on the circuit. Suppose an imsituation from that of any of their fellow peachment had taken place, could the judgsubjects; the benefit of a full and free ad- ment have been, in case the charges had ministration of justice; benefits which the been proved, a judgment of removal from application of the provision quam diu se bene office? he doubted it, and if not, an address gesserint did not exclude them. His lord- from that house, in conjunction with the ship argued with great ability against the house of commons, must have been resortpropriety and correctness of the proceedings ed to, which must have been moved by hitherto adopted, in the particular instance some individual peer. Supposing an adbefore them; and, that cases of the kind dress of that nature to originate in the house could not regularly originate in that house. of commons, still on its being brought to He referred to some prominent considera- their lordship's bar, they would not take it tions in the particular case, some of the as a proof, but would proceed upon the mocharges being of a very weighty and serious tion of some individual peer to investigate nature, and which were made on informa- the subject themselves. Upon the whole, tion given by a third person. Besides the his lordship strongly objected to the motions, great considerations of public and private which he considered, as tending to create an justice in the case before them, his object in unnecessary delay. coming forward was to afford the house a Lord Grenville could not bring his mind regular ground, and the necessary informa- to concur with the noble and learned lord, tion, previous to their deciding upon a case, that further investigation upon this subject in every point of view, of such great im- was unnecessary. He had expressed his portance. He concluded by moving his opinion at an early stage of the business, first proposition, viz. “ for the appoint- aird, whatever might be the law of parliament of a committee for the purposes above ment, every consideration, both of wisdom stated."
and justice, called upon the house to deli. The Lord Chancellor replied to the argu- berate upon the question. His lordship in
sisted on the necessity of searching for pre-parliament claimed as their peculiar privicedents, and adverted to the case of the earl lege. In the course of that impeachment of Bristol, and several others, which he had which was still in their recollection, the imlooked into, and from which his lordship's peachment of Mr. Hastings, it would be remin i had, he said, derived great assistance. coliected, that many such difficulties did The course which the house was then pur- arise. He certainly felt that a measure of suing, he considered a direct violation of the such importance as addressing his majesty law, and of the fundamental principles of to remove a judge, ought not to be adopted the constitution; the proceedings, so far as without grave and weighty reasons, but if they had gone, were entered upon the jour- their lordships should be convinced by conals of the house, and was it to be said that gent reasons that a judge was unfit to hold a veil was now to be drawn over those pro- his office, he could see no reason why the ceedings, and what had been entered upon houses of parliament should forbear from record, landed down as precedents to poste- presenting those addresses for his removal rity, for their example. It was impossible which the act of settlement expressly stated therefore to put off this question, without as sufficient ground to remove a judge from some farther investigation; there were am- his office. ple precedents in the house to authorise it Earl Spencer contended that a committee to go into such investigation, and the argu- ought to be appointed, and that the constiments used against it, by noble lords on the tutional mode of enquiring into the misconother side, were not founded either upon duct of a judge was by impeaching him. If law, upon jastice, or upon principle, but the accusations brought against the learned were merely a detail of minute distinctions judge, who was now the defendant, could wholly unworthy consideration; he, there be substantiated, there were very strong fore, trusted their lordships would be allow- grounds, indeed, for such a proceeding; for ed to receive that assistance from prece- that learned judge had been charged with dents, and that a committee for that pur- no less a crime than having used seditious pose might be appointed.
language from the bench. This was cerLord Turkestury observed, that the of- tainly a charge of sufficient importance to fice of a judge had been by the Act of W. ground an impeachment on, if it could be III. rendered as freehold, with a condition proved. He wished the house, in the preannexed to it, namely, that the judge should sent case, to conform itself to its established be removable upon the address of both usages and precedents. houses of parliament. He considered the Lord Mulgruve could not see that there mode of proceeding adopted with respect could be any necessity for appointing a comto the learned judge alluded to, to have been mittee to consult precedents, when it was perfectly regular, except in the instance of well known that no precedent which could laying the articles of complaint upon the be found would come near the present case. table. He admitted that no judicial pro- When the judges were made independent ceedings could originate in that house upon of the crown, it was clearly stated, that the complaint of a peer against any indivi- they were only removable by address from dual, except upon matters of privilege ; but both houses of parliament, or by impeachhe contended, that the case of the learned | ment. The precedents therefore of cases judge was totally distinct, and did not come which happened before the passing this law, within the meaning of such judicial pro- could have no application to the present ceedings. He thought a search for prece case, and he could not conceive any other dents, as moved by the noble lord would be ground that could be required for those adwholly unnecessary, and could lead to no dresses, except the clear conviction of both useful purpose; it was well known that no houses of parliament on due and weighty precedent existed since the passing the act consideration, that it was proper to present of settlement, which bore upon the present those addresses. If the house should, therequestion. Neither could he by any means fore, now think it impossible for them to agree that the remedy by impeachment was proceed without finding out precedents, the so simple and free from difficulties and ob- same reason would always apply against adstacles as the noble lord had represented. dressing for the removal of any judge. Whoever would take the pains of studying Lord Carleton allowed that it was compe the history of impeachments in this country, tent to either house of parliament to origiwould see that a great many difficulties did nate the question; and that since the passalways arise respecting what each house of ing of the act of W. III, it was as constitu.
tional for parliament to proceed by the way from their offces, and rendered incapable of or address as by thai of impeachment, which, ever more voting in parliament. His lordof course, could not originate in that house, ship thought, therefore, that the house bet must come from the commons. should consuit all such precedents as could
Lord Elterborough said, that highly as he give the least insight into the case, and as re-pected the opinion of his novle and learn- such, would vote for the motion. ed friend, he could not help diifering from Lord Auckland rose to reply. The noble him on the present question. He thought lord observed in forcible terms, on the cruel. that in an entire new case, as this confessed- ty of bringing the learned judge, whose case ly was, and when the house was called on was under consideration, with his witnesses, to decide on an act of parliament that had from above 400 miles distance, to answer never yet been acted upon or brought into such serious charges as were alledged against consideration-an act of parliament of such him, before the house had fully deliberated immense importance to every subject of and decided upon the proper mode of prothe empire, because it went to no less a ceeding to investigate those charges. That point than the removal of the judges from mode was not, he maintained, as yet discotheir places, he thought it was necessary vered; and he very much apprehended that their lordships should have the advantage of should the house proceed farther in the the opinion of the 12 judges. He thought course recommended by the opponents of also, that, in a case like this, their lord ships his motion, their lordships would fine themcould rot proceed with too much caution; selves in the aukward and degrading dilem and, therefore, that they ought to have thie ma of being obliged to retrace their steps. advantage of all the precedents which our The Lord Chincellor in explanation statancestors had made the rule and guide of sted, that he did not mean to insinuate that their conduct, antecedent to the time of the the object of this motion was to create de: act of setileinent. He well remembered lay, or to impede the progress of the investhe time when he was obliged in duty, in tigation to which it referred; but he would the line of his profession, to object to the beg noble lords to be assured, that whatever proceedings of that house, when they went impediments might be thrown in the way, from thence to the place below, day by day, this business should not end until complete for 7 long years; yet he was more pleased justice was done between the country and 10 see even such a proceeding, according to the individual concerned. the established rules and customs of the coun- Lord duckland observed, that if the noble try, than he would be to have witnessed an lord who had just sat down meant to say that attempt to enter upon any measures, which the object of his motion was merely to creshould seem like an innovation on the esta- ate delay, such language was not parliamenblished laws and customs of the land. It tary, and if the noble lord did not mean to had been said, their lordsluips could not be say so, his observation was altogether unnecertain that the commons house of parlia- cessary. In vindication of his motives for ment would exercise their privilege of im- the proposition he submitted to the house, peachment; and, therefore, that house ought he should only mention that he had no kind to proceed by way of address. He could of acquaintance whatever with the learned not, however, suffer himself to think, that person who was the object of this investigaany subject whatever of such importance as tion, and that he was actuated solely by a the present, could be agitated in that house, sense of duty, and a desire to do justice. so as that it should be apparent it deserved The question being put, a division was called impeachment, but that the commons would for, and the numbers were, contents 17, immediately take it up and prosecute it ac. non contents 29; majority 12.-On the re. cordingly. It had been said, that proceed- admission of strangers, lord A. gave notice ing by way of address was not a criminal of a motion upon the same subject for Moncharge ; but he thought otherwise. Was day next, for which day the lords were ora not the removal of a man from so high and dered to be summoned.--Adjourned. distinguished an office as that of judge, a criminal charge? Was not divesting him of
HOUSE OF COMMONS. honour, rank, and high official station, the
Tuesdny, March 19. strongest mark of a criminal charge? In [MINUTES.On the motion of sir W. proof of this, his lordship referred to the Young, the account presented to the house cases of Lionel, carl of Middlesex, and lord of ships and their tonnage, cleared out from Bacon, who were, on addresses, removed Ireland to the West Indies, was ordered to be printed.—Sir J. Anderson presented a his intention of deferring his motion res petition from several printers in the metro- ing the reduction of the militia till Thui polis, stating, that the journeymen had re- next. fused to work without an increase of wages; [Mr. Fordyce's Debt.]-Mr. Cro that their demands were exorbitant, and a rose, and spoke as follows: Sir, in pı compliance with them would be destructive ance of the notice I gave some time sind of the trade; and therefore praying, as the shall now submit a motion to this house only means of counteracting the evil, that specting Mr. Fordyce; a gentleman who, they might be allowed to take a greater various documents of parliament, appe number of apprentices, and for shorter pe- indebted to the public in a very large si riods, than they were at present allowed by of money, and of a very long standing; an law.- Ordered to lie on the table.--The who likewise appears by a commission lat Sugar Drawbacks bill was read a 3d time.- ly issued by the crown, and a copy of whic The report of the Exchequer Bills bill was now lies upon your table, to be one of fiv agreed to, and the bill ordered to be read a commissioners appointed for the purpose 3d time. The report of the Irish Spirits carrying into execution most important re Warehousing bill was agreed to.-A copy forms in the department of the navy, which of the commission, appointing John duke of have been suggested by the parliamentary Athol
governor of the Isle of Man, was pre- commissioners appointed by this house to sented. --Lord J. Thynne's Indemnity bill examine into those subjects. The first obwas read a second time, committed, and or. ject I have in view is an inquiry into the cirdered to be engrossed.— The Irish Sugar cumstances of Mr. Fordyce's debt; into the Drawbacks bill went through a committee, engagement he has entered into for the disand the report was ordered to be received charge of it; into the security the public to-morrow.Mr. Fox stated, that he should, have for its final payment; and into the on Monday next, present a petition to the causes that have hitherto delayed its liquidahouse from the Roman Catholics of Ireland. tion; and, with reference to these points, I It was not, he said, necessary for him to will shortly state to the house the history of give this notice, but he thought it respectful Mr. Fordyce's debt to the public, as I collect to the house to suggest his intention. it from the different documents of parlia
[Irish Excise Duties Bill.–Upon ment. The house knows, that by an act of the order of the day being moved for the parliament passed in the year 1780, certain house to resolve itself into a committee on
commissioners were appointed for the purthe Irish Excise Duties bill,
pose of examining the public accounts of
the kingdom, and for other salutary purSir John Newport said, he hoped the right poses of reform. In the first report of those hon. gent. who had given notice of his in- commissioners, and which was likewise made tention to bring forward a plan for the re. in 1780, I perceive that Mr. Fordyce was dụction of the militia, would allow the Irish found to be indebted to the public, at that Tax bills to be postponed. It was of im- time, in the sum of 64,0001. and upwards, portance they should undergo some discus- as receiver general of the land-tax of Scot . sion; hitherto they had undergone none. land. An examination of that gentleman They had been brought in on Saturday, not upon oath, taken before the commissioners
, and usually a day of business, and read a second as to the means of liquidating that debt, aptime on Monday, on a national festival. However the national Saint might protect Mr. Fordyce there refers to the most posi
pears in the appendix to that report ; and the country from venomous animals, it was tive and precise stipulations, as having been plain he had no power of protecting against entered into by him with the lords of the tax bills. Acts of parliament might as well treasury, for the accomplishing that object. be passed by acclamation, as with a degree of He states, that he had agreed to pay
off precipitation which precluded discussion. 30,0001. before the then next Lady-day; He had expressed his intention of opposing 10,000l. before the 10th of the next month one or two of the tax bills, but had hitherto after; and that as to the remaining 24,0001. had no opportunity.
owing to particular circumstances, Mr. ForThe Speaker observed that on a day for dyce states, he had obtained the indulgence which any hon. member had given notice of from the lords of the treasury to pay that a motion, it was usual to waive the other sum by instalments of 5000l. per annum. orders.
This, sir, was in the year 1780. The next The Chancellor of the Exchequer expressed mention I find of Mr. Fordyce is in the 8th