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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
pernicious tendency. He had no fears of straint in question. The house then, after 100 rapid a succession, or that through the negativing the proposition of lord Sidoperation of the bill, the patronage of the mouth, resolved into a committee on the laity would be improperly trenched upon. bill, and lord Walsingham having taken
Lord Ellenborough observed, as the ge- the chair, the preamble was postponed, neral sense of their lordships appeared to and the enacting clause entered into pro be for going into a committee, he should formá. It being settled between their lorddetain them very shortly. He was of opi- ships across the table that progress should nion that it would be expedient to set be reported, and leave asked to sit again ; some limitation to the acquisition of ad- which being done, the committee was divowsons in such cases as the present. The rected to sit again on Wednesday:-Adhouse should consider that the corporations journed. in question were as trustees who purchased for their own benefit; that they were not only donors but donees; there obviously therefore existed reasons for some restraint,
Monday, April 29. which did not exist in other corporations. [MINUTES.] Mr. Calcraft presented a He must join with the noble lords and re-petition from upwards of 1000 inhabitants verend prelates who reprobated that scan of the parish of St. Pancras against the bill dalous traffic in church preferments so for- for the erection of a workhouse, and some cibly alluded to. He was fully aware bow parochial regulations in that place. Ore greatly preferable it would be to see such dered to lie on the table.—Mr. Williams, patronage vested in the universities; but from the commissioners of naval enquiry, even with reference to purchases, even from presented at the bar the correspondience these quarters, he conceived, considering with the treasurer of the navy,
which was the possibility of abuse, that some degree ordered on a preceding day. The papers of restraint would even then be necessary. were ordered to be laid on the table, and They should endeavour to find some cer
on the motion of sir R. Buxton, it was tain ratio for apportioning the nuniber of ordered that they should be printed.-Mr. livings to that of the fellows of the respec- Johnstone, from the office of the chief se tive colleges, or rather of those who are cretary of Ireland, presented copies of the capable of being beneficed, and therefore contracts which had been entered into for some words should be introduced to express the purchase of houses or ground for the that provision in the bill, as “such per- scite of the Roman catholic seminary. Ora sons as are elected, or are capable of being dered to be laid on the table.- Mr. Parnell elected.”
presented statements of the public expen, The Bishop of O.xford in reply, observed, diture in the Irish chancellor of the exthat no fears need be entertained of too chequer's office, which were also ordered great an accumulation of patronage on the to be laid on the table.--Mr. H. Thornton part of the universities, even were that gave notice that, in consequence of the likely to take place, as parliament would resignation of sir Francis Burdett, he would, always have it in their power to check the to-inorrow, move that the petition against vicious excess; nay, to check the evil in Mr. Mainwaring be discharged.-Mr. Creethe bud. He entered into some calcula- vy rose for the purpose of putting a questions as to the number of livings vested in tion to his majesty's ministers. Three different bodies. Of these, we understood weeks shall have elapsed to-morrow since the' reverend prelate to say, that a less the resignation of lord Melville, and yet number than 700 were at the disposal of no successor had been appointed. He the universities, and many of these of small wished to know who was to succeed to value, out of an aggregate of upwards of that important office, as under all the cirten thousand livings.
cumstances of the country, and considerThe Duke of Norfolk said, that if the ing the forward state of the enemy's fleets, bill were agreed to by the committee, with it was extremely desirable that a person out some limitation or degree of restraint should be appointed, adequate to the ur, introduced, he would certainly oppose it gency of the times, and arduous duties of in some future stage. He conceived that that high office.The chancellor of the the same reasons continued to operate exchequer had no difficulty in answering which induced the legislature, in its wis. the lion. gentleman's question: the appointdom, in the year 1736, to provide tbe re- ment had taken place, and would be mnen
tioned in the Gazette of to-morrow; and the notice referred to some papers relative the successor to that noble lord was one to the eleventh report; in fact, that it was who fully answered the deseription of the a general notice. He thought the hon. hon. gent. and would be satisfactory to the baronet should have stated what his object wishes of the nation. (After having sat was, down; the right hon. gent, mentioned the The Speaker remarked, that there was name of sir Charles Middleton.)
no question before the house on which it [PAPERS RELATING TO THE ELEVENTH could come to any ultimate decision. NAVAL REPORT.] Sir A. S. Hamond Mr. Tierney said, the hon. baronet ought Tose to give notice that he should move, to apprize the house of the object of the to-morrow, for further papers respecting motion he intended to bring forward. He the Eleventh Report of the Commissioners supposed the documents he meant to move of Naval Enquiry.
for, were intended as the medium of ats Mr. Grey rose to take notice, that the tacking a noble lord. If so, it was neceshon. comptroller of the navy had, on a sary that every thing connected with the day last week, given notice of a motion immediate object of the motion should be connected with the Eleventh Report of the before the house. Commissioners of Naval Enquiry. He Sir A. S. Hamond appealed to the wished to know what object the hon. ba- house, that in their recollection, an hon. rouet had in view, in requiring additional member opposite (Mr. Kinnaird) had papers ou the subject of that report. The brought forward a similar motion, under hon. baronet had given a notice of a simi- similar circumstances. On that hon, lar nature on a former night without stat- member's motion, papers of a nature ing his object, and on the next day he had parallel to those he had moved for, were come down to the house before the usual ordered, and not a single objection was hour, and had moved for a letter from him- started. self to the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry, Mr. Grey professed his ignorance of the together with certain inclosures. It was circumstance to which the hon, baronet impossible to know what the hon. baronet alluded. As far as his own recollection proposed to himself by the production of extended, the motion of his hon. friend was such documenis. What had the house to not brought forward without a specific nodo with his letter to the commissioners? tice. Every member, indeed, knew to If he had any observations or comment to what end it was directed. Here, on the make upon it, as a member of parliament, contrary, it was perfectly understood that it was open to him to avail himself of an no business of a public nature was to be opportunity of doing so. The proceeding done till after the ballot was formed, the was altogether so extraordinary and irre- hon. baronet introduced his motion in the gular, that he (Mr. Grey) was of opinion absence of all those who might be supposthat the former notice and motion shoulded most anxious to defend the character be expunged, and that the hon. baronet of the noble lord, against any attack which should distinctly state what his object was. might be brought against his public con
Şir A.S. Hamond said, that upon the oc- duct. He himself had remained to a late casion alluded to, he had taken no ad-hour in expectation of the motion being vantage of the house. It was near five brought forward, and be was at last astoo'clock when he made his motion, and he wished to find, that the hon. baronet had had given full notice of the purpose for brought forward the motion at a time when which he made it. He had stated that the not one of the noble lord's friends were at documents were respecting the evidence all apprized of his intentions. They knew given on the eleventh report before the na- nothing at all of the nature of the papers val commissioners. The house was then to be moved for. They were obliged to be as full as it was at present, and he was not satisfied with the simple explanation, that aware of having been informal or out of they were papers connected with the order.
Eleventh Report of the Naval CominisMr. Tierney observed, that on the day sioners. lu fairness to the character of of the hon. baronet's motion, it was un- his noble friend, some opportunity should derstood that a ballot for a select commit-|bave been given to move for the productee was to take place at four o'clock. Hetion of other papers, by which these allecame down anxious to know the nature of gations might have been disproved. All the motion, as all he understood was, that the infororation, however, which it was
judged necessary by the hon. baronet to ling for such papers as were necessary to convey to the house, was, that it was a his vindication He believed it would turn collection of documents relative to the out that the document which had been eleventh report. This, surely, was nothing moved for was one which the hop. bart, short of sporting with the dignity of the had had no opportunity to bring forward. house, as well as the character of his noble The hon. baronet bad intimated to the friend. Fortunate, indeed it was, that his commissioners that their report would character was far above all suspicion, so convey to the world an erroneous statethat even the partial production of these ment. They declined receiving his statepapers could not injure him in the estima- inent. If then the 11th report reflected on tion of the public. To move for papers, the conduct of the hon. baronet, was his and not to explain to what object they staleinent in explanation to be rejected, bee were to be applied, was, he would ever cause it might convey an imputation against contend, equally inexpedient and objec- a noble lord, whom some persons thought tionable. A right bon. gent. opposite (Mr. fit to consider above all enquiry? He was Pitt) had attacked an hon. and learned not desirous of entering into a discussion friend of his for not bringing forward his of the motives by which gentlemen were motion on a former evening, on a suffici- actuated in their friendship for the poble ently explicit notice which on enquiry lord. Whatever he had thought of the turued out not to be the fact. It was as-noble lord, or pow thought of hin, be was certained that the notice of his hon, and not disposed to consent that his name learned friend was sufficiently explicit; should be brought forward to prevent the but surely no one member could now come production of a document necessary to the forward and say that the motion of the vindication of a member of the house. The bon. baronet had been intiinated in terms motion was for papers materially affecting at all so specific. The house besides bad the character of the person who called for here to consider what was demanded. It them. Similar papers bad been produced was pot a motion for the production of do-by a vote of the house ; he was, therefore, cuments to establish the innocence of the at a loss to conceive why in this instance hon. baronet, which would without diffi- they should be objected to. culty be acceded to. It was a motion for Mr. Grey said, the right hon. gentlemaa the production of a letter containing com-|(Mr. Pitt) had not advanced a word in sents an the report of the commissioners. vindication of the manner and time of the the hon. baronet thought these comments hou. baronet's bringing forward his motion, necessary, he, as a member of the house, but simply that to deny it would be inconhad an opportunity of stating them in his sistent with the justice due to an indiviplace. It was not consistent with the dig- dual; and that, as the report reflected nity of parliament to receive them in any materially on the hon. baronet, he ought other form. It was one of the tirst instan- not to be precluded from moving for that ces of letters of individuals being thus at- which was necessary to his own defence. tempted to be placed before parliament, By no means. God forbid, that he should and he trusted the practice would be effec- be denied any paper necessary to bis justually checked. The house, it appeared tification. What he complained of was, to him, were called on to expunge the that the hon. baronet moved for documotion for the production of the papers in ments comprising letters, without stating question.
or what they were intended. Had he The Chancellor of the Erchegner said, itinoved for specific documents, tbe propriewas bis earnest wish that the bon, gent. ty of granting them might have been can(Alr. Grey) would give effect to his threat, vassed; but the hov. baronet had moved and move to expunge the notice, if be for a letter from himself to the admiralty, thought it was wrong; but surely he ought inclosing other documents, without any first to recollect what it was. It was for information which might enable those cona copy of the evidence of the comptroller cerned to supply the deficiency of such of the navy before the commissioners rela- papers, supposing they should be income itive to the eleventh report. Now, when plete. He repeated that it was an unfair it was known that the eleventh report con-proceeding. In what situation would the tained comments on the conduct of the public be, if any person could; by writing person who had made the motion, was it a letter to the admiralty, get the inclosures 190t that he should be shut out from mov- printed and laid before the bouse of commons? Such a practice might lead to the house. Nobody knew to what these do circulation of he knew not what trash. Ilcuments referred. Even now he was at the letter was a justification of the hon. a loss to develope them. There were no buronet, let it be produced in a fair and titles to them. He desired to know honourable mode. Public rumour had whether it was fair that papers so prou induced him to believe it related to an duced should be printed. attack on a noble lord; if so, his friends Mr. Tierney wished the papers to be ought to have an opportunity of supplying laid on the table for two or three days be. any defect in the papers it contained. A fore they were printed. If they were right hon. gent. bad supposed that he (Mr. printed in their present state, they might Grey) had intimated that the noble lord create an impression which supplemienwas above enquiry. He had never said so. tary documents might not be able to He had said, that the noble lord was above remove. Both the hon, baronet and the attack, and if there was any imputation poble lord were in a situation wbich no against him, he challenged it. He was so man of honour could submit to The convinced of the noble lord's integrity, hon. baronet desired that he might not be that he had no doubt any enquiry would condemned unheard. He (Mr. Tierney) redound to his honour..
was equally anxious that his noble friend Sir A. S. Hamond maintained, that he should not be condemned unheard. He had taken the most regular and orderly thought the better way would be to niove way in bringing forward his complaint. for a committee to consider the eleventh In the 11th report, the comptroller of the report. All he was desirous of was, that navy was particularly reflected upon. a mutilated case should not be laid before There was one part of the evidence which the public. reflected on him in a way that no person The Chancellor of the Excheyuer said, of feeling could pass over. Either the there was an equal desire that justice noble lord or himself must stand in a should be done to both parties. The situation in which no man of honour question was, whether the house would would wish to be placed. He had written put the hon, baronet in a situation of ha. å letter to the commissioners, to desire ving hostile evidence adduced against him, that he might be re-examined. After a lest the documents in bis vindication, lapse of seventeen days, he was told, that might possibly reflect on another person. the report having been submitted to the No doubt, the comptroller of the navy three branches of the legislature, his re-ought to have the full benefit of these paquest could not be complied with. He pers ; they were calculated to elucidate was at the head of an interior board, and points relative to the hon. baronet's justi it was material to him to prove that he tication. An hon. gent. had observed Has not the person alluded to in the that it was competent to move for a comeleventh report. He had written a letter mittee. Was it not also competent to any. to that effect to the commissioners of the one to move for a vote of ceisure against admiralty, and had desired them to look the hon. baronet upon the report? over the documents, to convince them. was not unusual in the course of debate selves he had acted right. These were tor gentlemen to form different views of a the papers he had moved for. The house subject, and even when notice had been was full at tbe time, and if he had done it given of a particular motion, it had been five minutes too early, he had no inten- discovered in a few hours that the motion tion to take the house by surprize.
which before was considered the best, Mr. W. Dickenson presented at the bar would prove the worst that could be adó " a copy of the letter of the cotuptroller of opted. He concluded by moving that the navy to the commissioners of the ad- the papers should be read. miralty, dated April 22, 1805, relative to Mr. Fot observed, that the case before the evidence contained in the eleventh the house was involved in intricacy. The report of the commissioners of naval en whole seemed to have arisen from an irquiry, together with its inclosures." . Ou regularity the most strange and extraorthe motion that the papers do lie on the dinary that ever crept into the proceedings table, it appearing that the inclosures had of that house of parliament. The hon. no titles,
baronet thought, that his character being Mr. Grey doubted whether this was attacked by the eleventh report, it was bis such a proceeding as ought to satisfy the business to move for certain documents Nothing could be more right. But was rited. His character was not above enit right to conceal any thing Instead of quiry, but it was above all suspicion that referring to the documents A, B, or C, could be thrown upon it without enquiry. the hon. baronet referred them all to the Now the inclosures were produced, the inclosures of a certaiu letter. The house house did not know what they were; the should consider the difference between clerk could not read them, because they evidence and comment. If the hon. ba- had no titles. He wished to have the tironet had not the documents necessary to tles of these documents. He regretted bis defence, certainly it would be unfair ; that the house should have unnecessarily but if his comment on them had been got into so difficult a state of proceeding. omitted, it would have been competent in Mr. W. Dickenson, jun. did not conceive him to have made it, as a member of par. there was any impropriety or irrregularity liarnent, in his place. If he had stated in the proceeding. One of the papers was what the inclosures were, all this difficulty a letter from sir A. S. Hamond; the would bave been avoided. Had he point-other, a letter from Mr. Tucker : they ed them out by specific titles, it would were both under similar circumstances. have been coinpetent to any gentleman to Mr. George Ponsonby was of opiuion bave this or that by itself, which may that the papers ought not to be read, as mislead the bouse, and therefore it will they could not be read in the ordinary way, be necessary to move for some other pa- having no titles. The hon. baronet had pers. It had been stated, that the papers not specified what any one of the papers had been moved for at a certain time of the was, but had stated that they would shew day—a very fit time, he granted, to move the house he was at issue with lord St. Vinfor such documents. No mau could say cent, and that one or the other must stand that any observation in the hon. baronet's in a situation in which no man of hovour power to make personally, could be more would wish to stand. The letter, thereavailing in writing. It was important to fore, did not coutain a defence of the hun, have the whole of the documents before baronet, but a new and distinct crimination the public ; but to have the comment oflord St. Vincent. He was bound then to without the text, was not that state of the state the nature of the documents, that business which the house of cominons lord St. Vincent's friends might move for ought to be satisfied with. The right other papers, if necessary. hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt) had observed, that The Attorney General observed, that the house had seen changes on a former if any other person but lord St. Vincent day, with respect to certain motions of were the object of the motion, no oban hon. friend of bis (Mr. Whitbread). jection would be made to laying the doThe fact was, that his hon. friend, so far cuments on the table. But was there not from having abandoned his potice, had a report on the table charging the hon. babeen driven out of it by the majority of ronet with having omitted to have informthe house. He wished to know whether ed the first lord of the admiralty of certhere was any thing deserving reproach, tain important transactions? He bad lookor that could reflect on the understanding ed into the introductory letter since the or sedateness of his hon. friend, by the commencement of the discussion, by which course he had adopted. Whoever wit- it appeared that the bon. baronet, when bessed the debate of that day, and saw the he found that his conduct had been reeagerness with which every one of the flected on by the 11th report, bad tenderhon. gent.'s friends wished to screen theed to be re-examined, which the cominisdelinquents, could not but allow this was sioners had, no doubt on sufficient grounds, a sufficient reason for his hon. friend's refused. The hon. bart. had then adabandoning his motion. He was of opi- dressed himself to the admiralty, inclosing nion it would be more dignified and con- the documents. In consequence of which sistent, not to have these papers printed they were no longer in bis possession, and till others connected with them could be that had been the cause of his moving for also produced. Every one was aware that the letter and its inclosures. As to the there was no man in the country above en- observation of the learned gent. that this quiry ; but such was the character of lord was a fresh and distinct charge against the St. Vincent, that if the letter accused him, noble lord, was not there already upou the general and just opinion of mankind the table a charge against the ton. bawould be, that the imputation was uame- ronet? Was there no bardslip in that?