a point which was not now before the house. The question at present was, whether the evidence of lord St. Vincent was, or was not correct, and it really appeared to him perfectly correct.

his hands of it when he returned to sir A. I baronet was to blame in what he did on Hamond the letter of lord Hobart. To be the subject of that expedition; that was sure, it was impossible for lord St. Vincent, as a member of the cabinet, not to have known of the expedition, but he had no participation in lodging navy money in the hands of the hon. baronet. Here then ends, in the face of the house, the first The Chancellor of the Exchequer said charge against lord St. Vincent, and the that whatever might be doubtful, thus remarkable phrase that either the situation much indisputably appeared on the face of lord St. Vincent or sir Audrew Hamond of these papers; that the transaction which would appear from the papers, one in which occasioned the expence, the expedition no man of honour would wish to stand. which had been so frequently repeated, As a seaman, lord St. Vincent gave his was a measure perfectly well known to opinion respecting the project for choaking lord St. Vincent; that to the expence up the harbours of the enemy; but, as a being incurred, he had no objection; that servant of the public, he had never depart- he objected afterwards only to its being ed from his resolution not to use the pub-defrayed out of naval money-(a cry of fic money against the votes of parliament. I hear! hear!) have but one more observation to add, which is, that the worthy baronet has my warmest thanks for the production of his papers..

Mr. Grey said, that lord St. Vincent knew of the transaction of some secret service was a fact; but that lord St. Vincent Mr. Canning observed, that the impres- disapproved of and protested against the sion made upon his mind was, that the application of naval money for that purhon. baronet had moved for the produc- pose, was equally indisputable; no naval tion of these papers for the purpose of re-money was, either directly or indirectly, pelling a charge, the substance of which issued for that purpose under the authowas to be decided by the answer to be rity of that noble earl. His answer was given to a question, whether the comp-given to the commissioners of naval enquitroller of the navy had employed money ry with reference to his assent to the naval entrusted to his charge in other services than those of the admiralty? That was the charge, and which charge it was not for him to say had been repelled; that was with the house. But how it might appear to be conformable to, or contrasted with, what might have been said or sworn elsewhere, he left to the consideration of the public.

money being employed to the purpose of that secret service, which assent he most indisputably never gave. Lord St. Vincent was, therefore, perfectly right in that sense, when he said he knew nothing of the transaction.

Mr. Wallace said, that as far as his recollection went, it did appear to him that the noble earl was quite incorrect in the statement he made before the commissioners; for it appeared from the communications of sir A. S. Hamond, that the noble earl not only knew of and approved the secret service, but that he also assented to providing the funds for it. Most cer tainly the impression on his mind was directly the reverse of that felt by the hon. gent. (Mr. Grey) opposite to him.

Mr. Fox observed, that what had just been said by the right hon. gent. was fair, if indeed it was not something more than fair. But he had a right to expect that the point should be put on the true ground, and perhaps it would have been fair if the rt. hon. gent. had put forward the charge against lord St. Vincent. The ground of bringing forward these documents was, that my lord St. Vincent's evidence, as delivered to the commissioners of enquiry, was incorrect, as was indeed stated in one of the documents themselves. Now, it was so far from being so, that there was no incorrectness whatever in that evidence; on the contrary, Sir A. S. Hamond said it would appear, lord St. Vincent understood the matter at that his lordship directed that the compthe time, as he and every body else under-troller of the navy should have funds for stands it now, and he should be glad to have the incorrectness pointed out. It was another matter to say that the hon.

Mr. Grey.I say the representation of the hon. gent. who has just spoken, is di◄ rectly the contrary of the transaction to which he refers. If he means an epithet to apply to the evidence of the noble earl.

defraying the expences of the expedition, and he would beg to know whether these funds were to come from his own pocket,

his own emphatical expression, put his hand in the fire, rather than he would have consented to the issue of any naval money for that purpose.

or from the money of the navy. This letter was written by lord St. Vincent, in which he told sir A. Hamond that his lordship was satisfied the service (that was, the secret, or stone expedition) would Mr. Wallace.-I did not mean to say be properly performed. Here the hon. any thing in contradiction to what the baronet alluded to the letter of lord Ho-noble earl has thought fit to communicate bart, of the 7th of March 1804, and of earl to the hon. member as to what he would St. Vincent on the 9th, wherein his lord-have assented to: I am stating only what ship said, "It is thought advisable under appears on the face of the papers. the present circumstances of the war, that Mr. Grey.-I say the papers completely an attempt should be made for the prose-prove that which my lord St. Vincent said cution of a project for choaking up the to me.

harbour of Boulogne, the success of which Mr. Sullivan lamented that he had had the will depend on secrecy and dispatch. Imisfortune not to be in the house when have the king's commands to inform you it this discussion had commenced, and that, is his majesty's pleasure that you take this therefore, he could but imperfectly reply to under your immediate control, and com- all that had been said. But he was clear municate in confidence with Mr. that the expedition was perfectly known to supplying him with such funds, and giving lord St. Vincent, and he thought it but him such orders for the purposes of pro- justice to all parties to say, that he was tecting the vessels, and supplying stones perfectly acquainted with the whole transand other materials, which may be judged action. Lord St. Vincent resided at that necessary to be embarked, as shall be re-time chiefly in the country, and, therefore, quisite for accomplishing the object in view. the communications with him were entireThe advance you may have occasion to ly by notes. His (Mr. Sullivan's) letter to make for this service shall be hereafter re-sir Andrew Snape Hamond was dated 9th paid from the treasury. The vessels will Feb. On the 10th, lord Hobart wrote to proceed to the Downs, and you will receive lord St. Vincent, that for security and exorders from lord Keith." Another letter pedition sir A. Hamond was to take on the following day from the noble earl to charge of the whole of the preparations, sir A. S. Hamond stated, "I received and to advance the funds which were to be your letter of yesterday inclosing instruc-afterwards replaced. Sir A. Hamond tions from lord Hobart for an expedition proposed to raise the money by an issue on the naval service, and which I have no doubt will be well performed; but as the whole expence is to be defrayed by the treasury, I do not see any occasion for any part of the detail being transmitted to the navy board."

of navy bills, which were to be paid off when the money for the expedition was issued from the treasury. The funds thus created were paid into Messrs. Hammersley's bank. He did believe in the beginning, that lord St. Vincent was acquaintMr. Wallace. I beg to know whether Ied with the whole of this arrangement. have stated the direct contrary of the But he acceded to the declaration of partrue representation on these letters? Itial knowledge, because he was sure that have not done so, as far at least as my un- the noble lord would not say that which derstanding goes. I say, it was stated was not true. But till he knew that his lordoriginally in my lord Hobart's letter, that ship had declared himself so entirely ignothe funds were, in the first instance, to be rant of those particulars, he did believe supplied from the navy, but that they were that he was perfectly aware of them. He ultimately to come from the treasury, and did believe the hon. gent. opposite, when that my lord St. Vincent was aware of this. he stated that lord St. Vincent declared he I should be glad to know what he has to would have sooner put his hand in the fire say against that? than have countenanced this application Mr. Grey. My lord St. Vincent states, of the navy money. But certainly lord St. that the whole expenditure is to be defray-Vincent did not shew any such aversion to ed by the treasury. He protests against it at the time, he supposed from what had the application of any naval money for been said, because his lordship did not that purpose. I have my lord St. Vin-know it was to be done.

cent's authority to state, that he would Mr. Vansittart thought he could throw have quitted office altogether; or, to use some light on this transaction, by stating

1

which was approved of by the first lord of the admiralty, there was no objection on the part of that noble lord to the plan going forward, provided the expence was not defrayed out of the funds for the naval service. This was a new light, in which the transaction would not have been placed, if this discussion had not been instituted; what the effect of it was, he should not say.

what he knew of it from his official situa- transaction which was purely naval, and tion at the time. Great difficulty arose from the unwillingness of lord St. Vincent to apply the navy money to this expedition; and there being at that time no vote of credit, the only resource that remained was, that the comptroller of the navy should provide the funds in the first instance, and that they should be replaced from the treasury as soon as the vote of credit passed. He was glad his right hon. Mr. Fox was astonished to hear from friend, who was then treasurer of the navy, the right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt) that the na→ had explained the matter in the manner he tural construction was, that lord St. Vinhad done. He was sure lord St. Vincent cent meant to say he knew nothing of the was a man of honour, but without that ex-stone expedition. Could any man suppose planation he should have found it difficult that was what his lordship designed to reto reconcile the evidence with what he present? Was not the most indolent obknew of the facts, though he could not server in the kingdom informed of it? suppose any improper design in lord St. Then, as to the money, true it was there was Vincent. At the same time, it was obvi-no attack upon the integrity of the noble ous, that the hon. baronet stood fully ac- lord. Whether lord St. Vincent, in the quitted by the documents on the table, so high situation he held, did wright or wrong, far as any charge may have been made in suffering the expedition to proceed, was against him of having acted in this busi- a question on which at present he was ness without being fully authorized. called upon to give no opinion, but as a The Chancellor of the Exchequer supposed pecuniary transaction it was perfectly obthe house must now be satisfied from the vious he would not suffer the funds of the reading of the papers, that there was no navy to be applied to it. The right hon. intention to take the house by surprise, nor gent. said the design was to stifle the into advance any other unfair object, and formation contained in the papers. Did that any surmise of that kind was abso- requiring them to be publicly read indicate lutely unfounded. Whatever construction any such indisposition? Then why talk of may now be put on the words of the evi-surmises, when those hon. members to dence, the obvious impression they were whom the surmises were attributed, could calculated to make was, contrary to the not have the most remote idea of their intention of the noble lord, he did sup- contents. With regard to the innocence pose, that sir A. Hamond had issued navy or culpability of sir A, Hamond, that money for services, of which the first was also a question foreign to the present lord of the admiralty knew nothing. This was the impression they had made on his hon. and learned friend (the attorney-general), till the matter had been explained. He asked, under these circumstances, what would have been the counsequence if the enquiry had bsen stifled in the manner that had been proposed? What injury would not have been done to sir A. Hamond, if it had been only known that he had advanced the money to be replaced,but without the first lord of the admiralty having any acquaintance with the transaction for which it was advanced? Now it appeared that it was advanced for a service known and approved of by the first lord of the admiralty; that there was an arrangement that it should be advanced by the comptroller of the navy, to be replaced by the treasury. It now appeared, and it was a point much relied on, that in a

enquiry, and would, no doubt, be a subject of future discussion. If there existed any feeling on the mind of a single individual in that house, which attached the smallest suspicion to the character of the noble earl who had been so often named in this debate, he hoped the matter would be investigated with the utmost industry, and he (Mr. Fox) was fully convinced the enquiry would terminate in a way most honourable to his lordship.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer was surprised to hear hon. gentlemen disavow that there was a design to stifle information when a motion was proposed to expunge the order for the perusal of the papers. With regard to the assertion that what lord St. Vincent said implied he knew nothing of the transaction, in this he must persevere. He did not say what his lordship's intention was, but he (Mr. Pitt) would

repeat, that the natural impression from the papers was, that the noble earl knew nothing of the affair. But in order to remove any doubt on a matter that appeared to him so plain, he would read the question and answer from the report :-Q." It appearing that 14001. was advanced by Messrs. Hammersley and Co. between the 18th of Feb. and the 21st of April, 1804, for a secret service, was the comptroller of the navy authorised by you to perform a secret service, or have you any knowledge of the transaction ?"-A. "He was not; nor have I any knowledge of the transac-was the immediate object of discussion. tion."-His lordship might mean that he was not officially apprized of it, but the common impression would be, that he had no knowledge of the transaction regarding that secret service. This was the conclusion he drew, and he believed most per3ons had deduced on the perusal of the report.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer thought it extraordinary that this explanatory question and the answer to it were omitted in the report.

Sir Charles Pole said, the question was asked for the purpose of assisting his lordship's memory. The same general negative being given, it was thought unneces sary to insert the question in the report.

Mr. Hobhouse said, that the question had been for so long a time quite out of sight, that, without consulting his recol lection, he should not have known what

He had witnessed a great deal of clamou and irritation, of crimination and recrimination, and of every thing, in short, but argument. The motion before the house was, whether the papers which had been presented by the worthy baronet (sir A. S. Hainond), and read at the table by the clerk, should be printed for Mr. Grey said, the right hon. gent. had the use of the members? Had any objecbeen guilty of wilful misrepresentation- tion been offered to its adoption? What [a cry of order!]. The chancellor of the possible mischief could result from the exchequer rose with much warmth. The publication of these papers? He had heard speaker felt it his duty to inform the ho- none assigned; he could conceive none; nourable gentleman, that the expression he and therefore he should cordially assent had made use of was not justifiable. Mr. to the motion. With respect to the tesGrey said, he was sorry that any improper timony given by lord St. Vincent before expression should have escaped him in the the naval commissioners, and annexed to warmth of the moment. He contended the eleventh report, his (Mr. Hobhouse's) that there was no evidence of any disposi-impression upon reading it agreed with the tion to stifle enquiry; on the contrary, he had expressly declared his desire that every document that could aid the defence of the hon. baronet, or any attack to be made on lord St. Vincent, should be produced, only wishing to regulate the manner in which such documents should be allowed to go forth. He contended, that the questions put to earl St. Vincent were only relative to the application of the money.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer stated, that what he had said, was, that there had been an attempt to stifle these papers, and he said so still.

66 whether

statements of his right hon. friend below him (Mr. Vansittart), and of his right hon. friend near him (Mr. Sullivan); both of whom, from the public situations they at that time filled, were well acquainted with the whole proceeding, and most capable of forming a correct judgment. The question put to his lordship was, the comptroller of the navy was authorized by him to perform any secret service, for which a certain sum was advanced, and whether he had any knowledge of the transaction?" The answer was"he (the comptroller of the navy) was Sir Charles Pole was now called upon not, nor had he (lord St. Vincent) any from all sides, He stated, that the object knowledge of the transaction." What of the questions put to earl St. Vincent other inference could be deduced from related solely to the apparent irregularity this reply, except that his lordship did not in the application of the money. When know the secret service alluded to, anď his lordship answered that he knew nothing had not authorized it? This from the of it, his lordship was then asked whether letters which had now been read, was cerit might not have been applied to the stone expedition? He answered, it could not, because there was no authority for such an application, the money for the stone expedition being to come from the treasury. VOL. IV.

tainly not conformable to the fact. It appeared, however, from the same documents, that his lordship looked to the treasury for the payment of the expence, and therefore he was not guilty of warrant2 [

ing the application of naval money to se- | been aware that the money was to be adcret services. By the explanation now vanced by the comptroller of the navy, to given by lord St. Vincent's friends, it was be replaced by the treasury. clear, also, that to this point his lordship General Gascoyne, from what had been intended to direct his answer to the com-stated by the hon. baronet, who was at missioners. The evidence, thus construed, the head of the commission, thought it left not the least shadow of blame upon his clear that the commissioners conceived the lordship. He (Mr. Hobhouse) entertained noble lord's memory wanted assistance the highest opinion of lord St. Vincent's and direction. They knew his lordship integrity and honour; he admired his pro- well; and if they conceived his memory fessional talents, and completely approved was deficient, he could not imagine they his administration of the admiralty during thought so without reason. He was the the time that he presided at that board. more ready to admit the propriety of this Mr. Hobhouse concluded with repeating proceeding, as he himself had been a memhis wish, that a debate so totally irrelevant ber of a court martial on a very meritorito the question under consideration, might ous general officer, before which the noble no longer be protracted. lord had been a witness, and the noble Admiral Markham.-Lord St. Vincent lord's memory failed him so much that certainly knew it; I knew it; sir Thomas he forgot precise orders given by himself. Troubridge knew it. With regard to ap- He could therefore conceive very easily, proving it, I never did. I can mention a why persons so well acquainted with his circumstance which will shew lord St. Vin-lordship as the commissioners, should have cent's acquaintance with the affair. I remarked to his lordship at the time the business was carrying on, with so little secrecy it was conducted, that it was the common talk from one end of the river to the other, that the comptroller of the navy was fitting out these stone ships. Lord St. Vincent replied to me, "You and I have nothing at all to do with it, the treasury is to pay for it."

Lord Dunlo thought it strange that the explanation given to lord St. Vincent's mind by a particular reference to the stone expedition, was not inserted in the report. If the question was put, why was it not in the minutes; if it was in the minutes, why was it not in the report?

thought it right to assist his memory on the occasion now alluded to.-The question was now put, and the papers were ordered to be printed.

[NAVAL COMMISSIONERS' RENEWAL BILL.] The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved the reading the act appointing' the commissioners of naval enquiry, and the act being read accordingly, the right hon, gent. rose pursuant to notice, to move for leave to bring in a bill for the further continuance of that act for a time to be limited. In a former part of the sessions, he observed, that it was his intention to bring forward this motion, if it should appear that the commission of naval enquiry should be unable in the course of the sessions to fully discharge the duty assigned to them on their original appointment. This inability was now apparent, as several objects still remained for investigation which would necessarily occupy The Attorney-General said, the misap-much time. It therefore became proper prehension arose from the unhappy cir- to prolong their continuance. With recumstance that the witness did not under- spect to the conduct and character of this stand the question, which required some commission, he was as willing as any man explanation for the direction of his mind. to admit, that it had produced much useThe question was put down without expla- ful and important information. At the nation, and the answer was recorded with-same time, however, he would say, that out qualification. Thus the misapprehen- there were several parts of the conduct of sion was in the report, without that which had some tendency to correct it.

Sir C. Pole said, it was not put down, because it had been directed merely to assist lord St. Vincent's memory, and because it had not produced any knowledge of the matter in his lordship's evidence.

Mr. Robert Ward contended, from the time, that lord St. Vincent must have been perfectly aware that the expedition was going forward, and that the letters shewed it. The noble lord must besides have

this commission of which he could not approve, but still their investigation had been productive of many results that would conduce to the public service, and on this ground he felt it his duty to submit this motion. The motion being put,

Mr. Whitbread thought it extraordi