1 Mr. For explained, by saying, he had not imputed to the right hon. gent. any such direct influence as to say he could dictate the choice of a committee. lie only meant that there was generally a sort of courtesy observable in the house, on most occasions, to indulge the inclinations of the right hon. gent. made by the naval commissioners? He the longest political life ever enjoyed by would not now pretend to dive into the any prime minister of this country, markfeelings and motives of the right hon. gent. ; ed him out as the very individual by whom but for his own character's sake he would the country would most wish such a comprofess that had he been similarly circum-mittee to be nominated. He called on stanced with regard to the persons detect- the house to repel with indiguation any ed of delinquency, he would not have imputation on their honour, let it come ventured to come forward for the purpose from what quarter it might. Would they of naming the committee who were to endure to be told, that they were willing follow up the investigation; and if ever to subject themselves to the authority of there was a question upon which the house any individual, however pure his chashould be least diposed to compliment racter, however high he might stand in the right hon. gent. with the privilege of their estimation, from the experience of nominating a committee, the present was many years during a period as critical and undoubtedly that occasion. He approv-important as ever occurred in the annals ed, however, of what the right hon. gent. of the world? As to observations on the said of the objects of this bill. It was intended regulations of the bill, it would much; but there was still a necessity for be more proper to defer them till the bill much more. The navy and the army were was actually before the house itself. undoubtedly two great branches of public expenditure, in which great abuses had unquestionably occurred, but there were still others that as loudly challenged enquiry. Did the right hon. gent. think that enquiry was not full as necessary in the expenditure of the treasury, so much more immediately connected with himself? and upon the same principle, if he were to Mr. Grey admired the dignified zeal with bring enquiry forward and name the com- which the noble lord asserted the indivimittee, he might as well nominate the lords dual purity of his right hon. friend; and of the treasury at once to investigate and yet he begged leave to remind the noble censure their own delinquencies, if they lord, that more flagrant corruption had were guilty. But that those persons whose prevailed in the country during the period conduct was the object of enquiry should that right hon. gent. had been at the head be permitted to nominate the enquirers, of the government, than during any other was contrary to every principle of common period in our history. He (Mr. Grey) well justice, common decency, and common recollected, that the noble lord himself had sense. But let not the right hon. gent. taken fire in a similar manner, when his "lay this flattering unction to his soul," own individual purity was called in questhat after what had passed in that house, tion by a right hon. gent. who was now after the enormities that had already been one of his colleagues (Mr. Foster). The dragged to light, the public would be satis-noble lord indignantly repelled the insinuafied with the appointment of a commissi-tion of corruption brought against his own on by himself, to enquire into those bran- government, and concluded by an highches of the public service with which he him-fraught panegyric, on the spotless purity self was immediately connected. If he enter- of the Irish house of commons! His right tained this hope, he was convinced that he hon. friend, however, answered, "the nowould find himself very seriously mistaken.ble lord mistakes me-I have urged no Lord Castlereagh rose, with much insinuation; but I directly charge, that there warmth, to vindicate the conduct of his was a gross and corrupt profusion of the right hon. friend (Mr. Pitt), whose indi- public money perverted to procure votes vidual purity not only placed him far in the Irish parliament in favour of the above the unwarrantable imputation of the union; and I charge the noble lord, then hon. gent., but justly attached to him the at the head of administration in Ireland, esteem and confidence of the country. The with being the proposer, chief manager, personal purity of his right hon. friend rendered his character such as any country might be proud of, and the spotless integrity he had maintained during perhaps and principal instrument in carrying that measure." The noble lord, however, sat silent, and did not think proper to venture on a reply.-The hon, gent. concluded by observing, that after what had passed with respect to abuses in the naval department, there was well founded suspicion, at least, that similar abuses were prevalent in other departments also. The expectations of the people were now raised, and they looked up for investigation. If it was earnestly and honestly followed, the people would be satisfied, but if merely carried on for the purposes of deception, and the protection of delinquents, the natural result would be dissatisfaction and discontent in every quarter of the realm.The question was now put, and leave given to bring in the bill. came into their hands subsequent to the 1st of January, 1786." Sir Robert Buxton seconded the motion, and said, that illness prevented him from being in the house on the first night of discussing the subject of the tenth report; had he been able to attend, he should certainly have voted in the majority, on the ground of the noble lord's having violated an act of parliament. Mr. Bankes regretted that the motion was brought forward this night, because he did not think that it would satisfy the public, or answer the ends of public justice. No man had a higher respect for [ PROCEEDINGS RESPECTING LORD the courts of law than he entertained, and MELVILLE AND MR. TROTTER.] Mr. he hoped that the matter might some time Spencer Stanhope rose, and said that or other come before one of those ancient he felt it necessary to have the matter of tribunals, where no prejudice existed, and charge contained in the tenth report of the from which, consequently, a fair and just commissioners of naval enquiry put in a decision should be anticipated; but he course of investigation. The charges wished the house to consider at present, which it made were very serious, and before it parted with the business, or sent should be proceeded on with decision and it to the court of exchequer, what would dispatch. Though he was convinced that be the result. This might be easily inlord Melville was not guilty of participa-ferred, considering that the person or perting the gains of malversation of public money, yet he should not attempt to screen the noble lord, or throw dust in the eyes of the public on the present occasion, but he thought it improper to have condemned the noble lord before he was beard; in saying so, however, he did not mean to question the decision of parliament, which found the noble lord guilty of having violated the law; but he could not refrain from saying, that he abhorred the barbarous mode of first cutting off a man's head, and trying afterwards whether he was guilty. He was of opinion that the most eligible mode of proceeding would be, to have a civil process instituted against the noble lord and Mr. Trotter in the court of exchequer, in order to have restitution made to the public. Should it turn out, in the course of the proceeding, that the noble viscount was in a corrupt league with Trotter, he trusted, then, that the house would proceed by impeachment; but he again repeated his convic- Mr. Windham considered it perfectly tion that this was not the case. He con- clear, that the best way of proceeding cluded with moving, "that the attorney would have been to have referred the general be directed to take such measures whole matter to a select committee, who as may appear most effectual in ascertain-could have taken the opinion of the law ing and securing, by a due course of law, such sums as may be due to the public by lord Melville and Mr. Trotter, in respect to the profits araising from money applicable to the service of the navy, which VOL. IV. sons to be examined might demur, and thus defeat the end of substantial justice: besides, the intricacy and mixture of the different accounts, and the diffculty of distinguishing the itens of each, threw difficulties almost insurmountable in the way of accomplishing the object to be attained. He was decidedly in favour of a committee with enlarged powers; but as this did not seem likely to be attained, he thought that the magnitude of the subject, and the satisfaction of the public, made it necessary to move generally,, that the attorney-general be directed to prosecute the noble lord and Mr. Trotter. He should therefore propose as an amendment, that all the words after "lord Melville and Mr. Trotter" be left out, and these words be inserted, "and that the attorney-general be directed to prosecute the said lord Melville and Mr. Trotter for the said offences."--On the question being put, officers in what manner the suit ought to be brought with the best chance of succeeding in its object. They would have been able to ascertain whether there existed evidence sufficient either to support a 2 K civil action, or a criminal prosecution. Since that course was not taken, and the alternative lay merely between the civil action and the criminal prosecution, he should give his vote for the latter. branch of the charge, namely, the violation of the law, which had been admitted, and could not preclude an enquiry into the participation in the peculation, which was punishable, both in a civil and criminal point of view. Sir J. Newport expressed his preference of a committee with extensive powers, to à committee with limited powers, and contended that such a committee should make a general enquiry and refer certain points for prosecution. As however this was not to be done, he certainly preferred a criminal prosecution to a civil one. In his estimation, the satisfaction of public justice was of infinitely more consequence than the regaining of a paltry sum of money. Mr. Putches said he thought that if the shameful conduct of this great delinquent were screetied, men would soon become ashamed of speaking against corruption. He severely censured the conduct of the last adininistration of the right hon. gent. opposite, and spoke with inuch warmth in favour of a criminal proceeding. The Master of the Rolls observed, that every thing on which a civil suit could proceed had been already settled by the vote of the house. What were the reasons urged by gentlemen on the other side of the house for the adoption of the resolutions of the 8th instant, in opposition to the wish of his right hon. friend, that the whole business should be referred to a committee? Because they asserted nothing could be done in the committee. It was impossible to change their opinion of the transaction, as it was impossible to do away the effects of lord Melville's confession of an infringement of the law, and the proofs of Mr. Trotter's speculating with the public money. If so, if this were true; how could a committee find out better grounds for prosecution than what existed? If parts of the subject were referred to a court of law, it would be Mr. For said, he had but a word or highly improper that the same topics at two to offer on the present question. the same time should be under the con- Gentlemen had alluded to several modes sideration of a committee of the house. It of proceeding, in order to meet the in would be better to postpone a reference tentions of the house, and the expectations to law without abandoning it altogether. of the country. Some, it appeared, were An hon. gent. had proposed an amend- for a civil, others, for a criminal prosement to the original motion for a civil cution: others again, would prefer the suit, in which he had moved for a crimi-mode of impeachment. His object was, nal prosecution! and that to ascertain to see lord Melville prosecuted and puwhether or not lord Melville received any nished one way or the other. As the case profits from the use of the public money. now stood, the noble lord was not punishIf he did, they ought to be the object of a ed in any degree at all. If the present civil suit. Besides there was no better question, or the amendment moved upon ehance of obtaining that information in a it, or an impeachment, went nearer the accriminal court than in a civil one. Evi-complishment of their object, he shoul₫ dence must be produced in both, vote for it. He had no other anxiety, evidence would prove it in either. than to see adopted the speediest mode resolutions of the house contained a cen- of obtaining redress for his constituents. sure on lord Melville's conduct. His resignation which was in consequence of those resolutions, was in fact a substantial punishment inflicted by the house. After these grave resolutions, it would be ha- Mr. T. Grenville felt no very strong mozardous to send the affair into a court of tives of preference for a criminal rather law. The conviction could not be an than a civil prosecution. He feared that swered for, nor the sentence on conviction. either would be found inadequate for the It would be impossible, he believed, to discovery of a corrupt participation on the prove any actual participation in pecuni- part of lord Melville. But as he now had ary advantages, and the legal punishment, no other choice, he should vote for the might not accord exactly with the idea amendment, as it seemed somewhat more the house entertained of the heinousness closely to follow up the spirit and intention of the offence. of the resolutions which the house had al and The Mr. S. Stanhope in explanation, said, that lord Melville had already been sufficiently punished, unless he was convicted of wilful participation in the illicit profits. Dr. Laurence contended, that the re-ready adopted. This was more his object solutions of the house only went to one than a vain attempt to recover the money. Should the house adopt no other measures gent. in contending that a civil prosecuthan those now proposed in furtherance of tion was the only remedy, and yet at the their resolutions, they would but ill answer same time confessing that they would not the expectations which the country had answer for the success of it. He sincerely conceived from the resolutions. By these regretted that the powers of the committee the house had pronounced that lord Mel-had been restricted. On the investigations ville had been guilty of a flagrant breach there to be made, the public might have of the law, and of an evident dereliction relied for success. Any other mode must of duty; and was no legal punishment to be open to disappointments, inconvefollow such a proved and acknowledged nience, and delay. The attention of the offence? As to an impeachment, little public was fixed on the proceedings of the could be expected from it. The public house, and of the courts of judicature, to justice of the country might be better sa- which they should resort for justice and tisfied, perhaps, by a criminal prosecution, punishment of the offenders. He was and in that view of it, he should vote for averse from allowing the possibility of the that mode of proceeding. ends of justice being defeated, or that any Mr. Sheridan said, there were two modes disappointment should flow from such a proposed; one for a civil suit, and the quarter; that the public should find that other for a criminal process. The gent. they were so short-sighted, ignorant, and who proposed the former said, he did not improvident as to the decision which must think lord Melville had participated in follow. It was their duty; they were the slightest degree in the emoluments called on to preserve the good opinion of of Mr. Trotter. He would ask, why the public in the course of law of the then did he move that a civil action should kingdom; and, so far as in them lay, not be instituted against him? Surely, every to allow the public mind to relax in any person must see that such a mction was share of that love, confidence, and affection absolutely useless, that it must be worse in their proceedings which we knew at than useless in the opinion of the gentle-present existed. Here a great public deman who made the motion; as, though linquent had been proclaimed to the counhe was convinced lord Melville did not try. His offence had even been in part acparticipate in the profits of Mr. Trotter, knowledged: but when parliament carried he made this motion, it is to be supposed, him into a court of law, nothing could be to prevent those on the other side from made of him! He approved of the obinstituting more effectual proceedings. The servation of the hon. bart. (sir John Newhouse was now driven to make a choice port). It was not money which that .of the two measures, and, something like house and the country sought for in a grand jury who had not found a bill, they this instance; it was for the adoption of were about to proceed for the recovery of that proceeding which should best conthe money, assuming every thing which sult the dignity and honour of parlia ought first to be precisely ascertained. The ment, and of the nation. His hon. house were turning their backs upon that of which they had proof, namely, the violation of the law, and they were sending the participation, of which they had no proof, before a jury. friend (Mr. Bankes) had said, that the adopting of the one mode of proceeding in the criminal court, would not preclude them from their civil suit. In this he agreed with his hon. friend. He had not Mr. Wilberforce said, that the hon. gent. contended, as the hon. and learned gent. who had made the present motion, did (the master of the rolls) seemed to imagine, not seem to have attended to the circum-that they would avail themselves of both stances of the case. For that hon. gent, proceedings. That he understood not to he entertained the highest respect, but he be the meaning of his hon. friend; but could not think that his motion was calcu-only that if one failed they might then related to produce any good effect. The cur to the other. If in the criminal action subject of the motion was one, on which they felt embarrassed, they might be enthere was no proof, and in the success of which, their own professional men did not hold out to them any very flattering hopes. What man could seriously listen to the recommendation, who would not Imost smile at the right hon. and learned titled in the civil action to attempt something like compelling restoration. It was of the utmost importance for parliament to take care that they did not go to demand the opinion of a court of judicature in that part of their case in which there was a the house ought not to go those lengths which they declined at first without a further aggravation of his lordship's offence. With this feeling, therefore, I shall vote for the original motion. Mr. Whitbread.-The right hon. gent., who has just sat down, argues as if the chance of failure. He was a great friend to judicial proceeding, and he wished the people in general to be so. He confessed he had had no doubts, although the spirit of the law was unquestionably with them, whether it was equally clear that the letter of the law was so too. None of those gentlemen, however, who were better quali-house had decided that they would proceed fied than he pretended to be to judge on that subject, having started any doubt on the subject, he should hope there was on that point no risk of failure. Failure was at this moment greatly to be deprecated. It was not against the courts of law alone that the obloquy would attach. Parliament would also come in for its share. He was not anxious for popularity, he was solely solicitous to preserve unbroken, those bonds of esteem, affection, and confidence, which he hoped would always continue to subsist between the people of this country and parliament. He therefore, as the best measure which now remained to be adopted, gave the amendment his cordial support. by civil suit. That, however, is not the The Chancellor of the Exchequer.—I think I am warranted in saying that the mode proposed by the hon. gent. (Mr. S. Stanhope), is that which was approved by a great majority of the house. The question then is, whether we shall wave it, and substitute one which the gentlemen themselves, who have brought it forward, say is liable to some objection? The ob- is that a punishment for the offence servation made respecting the powers of charged, and is the case not to be sent for the committee does not appear to me to be trial to a petty jury? I admit that the founded in fact. The question of enlarging vote of the house compelled the resigits powers did not affect the particular nation of lord Melville; but there is a case of lord Melville. The doubt arising great deal of difference between that resigupon that subject was whether the powers nation and his dismissal. The people of the committee were sufficiently wide, should have seen and known that he was and embraced every other proper object dismissed. The effect ought to have been of enquiry, exclusive of the particular case plain and palpable to the understanding referred to a court of law? That, however, of every man. If a civil suit were to disis not the question now. The question cover that the money was picked out of now is which of the two modes is prefer- the pocket of the public, would that be able? and I contend that the civil bill is punishment, unless followed by restitution? better calculated to obtain the object than I admit I might have the committee, and the criminal process. After having in- the right hon. gent. said he would not opflicted so heavy a wound upon lord Mel-pose it; but to obtain his concurrence, I ville, as that which his lordship had al- must have abandoned the particular case ready suffered, he did not understand that in question, and acquiesced in an attempt the house wished to follow it up in a to cloak and screen lord Melville, and that penal way, unless satisfied of his lordship's I did not choose to do. -The criminal participation in the profits. With a con- proceeding is, I am sure, the best calcusciousness to that effect, I thought the lated to obtain the ends of justice, and I house would be content with an assurance shall accordingly vote for it. that his lordship was not to return to his majesty's councils. I think, then, that The Attorney-General wished to offer a word or two in explanation of the opinion |