10 or 11, to which it had in one or two instances, risen for a short time. The noble lord could not therefore make out that any loss had been sustained by the public by this transaction. The question of exchange was not regularly before the house, but he would be indulged with an observation upon it. The state of exchange depended on the general balance of pecuniary transactions between two countries, and in this respect it was favourable to Ireland so large a sum of money having been transmitted. The restriction of the issues of specie was the primary cause of all the unfavourable state of the currency and exchange, unknown before, but whose interest it was to keep it high. Another cause was the over issue of paper. In the months of May, June, and July, the Bank of Ireland diminished its issue from three to two millions and a half, and the exchange fell. In August they increased it again to 3 millions, and the exchange rose. The same consequence had happened in 1753, from the breaking of the Bank, and in the reign of King William, from the base coin. Where guineas were paid, the exchange was at 5 per cent. being 3 below par. The right hon. gent. contended no ground had been made out for the motion, and therefore to get rid of it, moved the order of the day,

the bills and re-sold them at a profit. He should therefore vote for the proposition of his noble friend.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer maintained that the conduct of the Irish treasury had been correct, as it was the duty of the commissioners to provide the money for the public occasions. It was a perversion of terms to infer that the depreciation of paper had any real effect on the exchange. He allowed that the excessive issue of paper produced a depreciation. The fact was, that in each country there was a different circulating medium, and the depreciation of either could have only a nominal effect on the course of exchange. The remittance of so large a sum as four millions and a half, would have had the effect of lowering the exchange, even if the operation of the Irish treasury had not taken place. The ground of the noble lord's charge of a loss to the public, appeared to rest on a supposition, that the rate of actual exchange would have continued the whole time at 13 per cent.; but was it to be supposed the Irish treasury could have procured purchasers at 13 per cent. when they had failed at 11 for these reasons he thought that no ground had been laid for the noble lord's motion.

Mr. Fox was glad to hear the right. hon. gent, allowing that an excessive issue caused Lord Henry Petty agreed in the whole a depreciation, and that the house was never doctrine laid down by the right hon, gent. again to hear the fantastical opinion that as to the causes of the unfavourable state of paper was not depreciated, but the value of the exchange for Ireland. He agreed also gold raised, as well as that these evils prothat the question was a direct charge ceeded exclusively from the restriction on upon the treasury of Ireland. But he dis- the Bank. As long as the Bank paid in claimed on his own part and that of his specie, there had been no excess, because noble friend, any intention to make a in that case the issue carried its own remedy charge upon the right hon. gent, whose with it, being payable in specie. The ques conduct, if brought before the house, would tion here was, that the new method ‍had intitle him to its gratitude. There had been produced an effect which the the old meconsiderable misconduct in the Irish trea-thod never had. Whether the loss to the sury, in their management of the bringing over the loan. They had departed from the usual mode, and thereby occasioned considerable loss to the public. The right hon. gent. disclaimed any idea of lowering the exchange, though the expectation had prevailed to that effect, as appeared from the full sum required having been subscribed when the exchange was lowered to par, The noble lord here read an extract from the report of the committee on the Irish currency and exchange, to shew that it was improper in the lords of the treasury to interfere with the exchange, as it would encourage jobbing, which had literally taken place in this case, persons having bought

public was to the extent of the difference between 11 and 13 per cent, it was impossible to tell now, but he thought sufficient ground had been laid for the proposition of his noble friend,

Mr. Lee said, that having been a member of the committee upon Irish affairs, and having attended carefully to the evidence they produced, he had some good reasons to suspect the committee to have been mistaken, in having ascribed the depreciation of Irish notes to the over issuing of paper by the Bank. The issues of the Bank of Ireland were ascertained and well known; but it was the less surprising, that the paper of that company should be depreciated at

home,

home, when even the paper of the Bank of England experienced in that country a depreciation of 34. per cent.

Mr. Alexander also considered the depreciation to be owing to circumstances altogether unconnected with the Bank of Ireland; for the private Bankers, even about Dublin, actually circulated notes beyond the issue of the national Bank; which, being by one of its bye-laws obliged to discount mercantile bills at one per cent. below the legal interest, gave to other Banks a great advantage over it.

Mr. J. Latouche expressed himself favourable to the motion, on the ground that the lords of the treasury in Ireland, by the mode they adopted in this instance, did not obtain terms for the public, which they might have done, even under the circumstance of the times. Much was certainly lost by the generally credited report, that the exchange

of the two countries was to be reduced to par, and the report not having been contradicted by the Government, which was perfectly well acquainted with its existence, and its procedure deterred the merchants from coming forward on the occasion.

Mr. Foster, in explanation, observed, that the committee of last year, so frequently alluded to, had disapproved of the old mode of drawing bills at par upon England. The method which they seemed to point out, of having recourse to the assistance of the Bank of Ireland, had been resorted to; but they having declined all interference, the lords of the treasury, unwilling to return to the mode condemned by the committee, found themselves, by necessity, compelled to recur to a new method of their own.

sums were remitted, the exchange must be affected. The subject of the over issue had not been sufficiently investigated. As to the depreciated state of the paper of Ireland, it was a fact of which several gentlemen might not be aware, that the notes of the Bank of England were at a discount of 3 per cent. in Ireland.

Mr. H. Thornton thought the noble lord had not sufficient grounds for his present motion; it was not the manner of passing bills, but the quantity in the market, which was the occasion of the increase or depre ciation of the rate of excl.ange. He was afraid that the reduction of the issue of the paper of the Bank of Ireland could not be expected at present. He was surprised that they had not taken the hint given in the report of the committee.-After this, lord A. Hamilton said a few words in reply, and his motion was negatived without a divi

sion.

[MILITIA ENLISTMENT BILL.]-The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, the object of the measure he intended to propose was, instead of the gradual reduction of the Militia to the original establishment of 40,000 for England, and 8,000 for Scotland, to make the reduction directly, by allowing the supernumeraries now existing above that amount, to volunteer into the line. By the returns of the militia, as it now stood for England and Scotland, for he would proposé nothing with respect to Ireland at present, the amount was 70,000 men. On reference to the Militia acts it appeared that the total number of 41,000 for England, and 8,000 for Scotland, were described as privates, in which description corporals were Mr. Grey observed that, though the right not included. It was necessary, therefore, hon. gent. said he had but one alternative to make allowance for corporals, who were left, either to return to the old mode con- included in the return of rank and file. The demned by the committee, or discover some number of corporals in the force to be kept new one himself, he would take the liberty up was 2,300, making in the whole number of reminding him, that it was not drawing for England and Scotland something above bills at par upon England which was con- 1000. Consequently the difference between demned by the committee, but the attempts that and the existing force afforded someof the lords of the Irish treasury to lower thing about 17,000 men to be applied to the the balance of exchange. Near 200,000l. augmentation of the disposable force. Notof the loan of last year was remitted in the withstanding the variety of opinions that exordinary way, and had no bad effect. By isted with respect to all military measures, the measure the treasury took, it placed it-it was a thing agreed on all sides, that an self in the situation of a man who should addition of 17,000 men, to be made in a have property to sell, and should advertise moderate time to our disposable force, would that he must sell it on a particular day; the be a great and important accession of obvious consequence of which would be the national strength in the point in which it depreciation of his property, from a know-was most desirable; he would say further, ledge beforehand of his necessity. at a time when the existing circumstances Sir W, Pulteney remarked, that when large of Europe rendered it likely that our dis

posable force could be employed with most upon for any one military purpose. This advantage; the beneficial effects of the mea-fluctuation was a further ground for the resure would be still heightened, because it duction, and the deficiency of officers, not was not merely men that would be gained merely officers properly qualified, was such for the regular army, but trained and dis- that there would be not more than sufficient ciplined soldiers, of a description far beyond for the reduced establishment, there being what our regular army afforded till within at present above 500 vacancies for officers these few years. The acquisition would be in the Militia. If the superfluous men were thus doubly valuable. Great, however, and in the end to be reduced, if while they redesirable as this acquisition was allowed to mained they were not constituted in the be by all who expressed their sentiments on most advantageous manner for the public the military state of the country, he would service, was there ever a case in which there not have desired it if he thought the mea- was juster cause for allowing to be carried sure by which he proposed to carry it into into immediate effect by volunteering, which effect was of such a nature as to be attended was the ultimate object of the determination with any serious detriment to the Militia as of the last session, and what was acknowit now stands, or as it was allowed by law ledged to be most useful and desirable to to be ultimately fixed. He was one of those the country? It was generally known from who held the unabated zeal and unalienable report, it was known to him from more parpride of the Militia leaders as one of the best ticular authority, that there never was a points in the country, and he should be period at which the militia were more desorry to do any thing to impair so valuable sirous to give their fullest services to their a spirit. The house and the country were country's cause, if they were permitted.→ called upon by the circumstances of the pre- This was, in truth, the moment at which sent moment to carry into effect the deter- it was most desirable to bring forward such mination formed last session, that the Mi-a proposition, a moment at which he would litia ought not to be maintained at an amount more than 40,000 for England, and 8000 for Scotland. This determination had been formed on the ground that the number of men now locked up for defensive purposes was too great, with a view to a description of force which may be employed for the defence of Ireland and the islands in the channel, and still more with respect to a disposable force, and the means of recruiting that force. The commanding officers of the militia, men of the highest respecta bility, had, besides, concurred that the number of militia officers could no longer be maintained consistently with the constitution of the militia. The ballot fell so heavy, and the procuring officers was so difficult, that the best friends of the militia allowed the best service that could be done to it was to reduce it to the original amount. On these consideratious the house had passed an act, in virtue of which all vacancies occurring fill the Militia was reduced to that standard were not to be filled up. It happened that by the remoteness from the permanent establishment, by the slowness and uncertainty in the approach to it, by the fluctuations which the occasional decrease occasioned, the strength of the battalions was liable to constant variations, and the companies continued disproportioned in their strength, so that neither could be counted upon as affording any certain force to be calculated

be justified in saying, no difficulty stood in the way of it, if he had not, from the communications he had with the commanding officers of the militia regiments, learned that some of them were adverse to it. Much however, as he respected the opinions of these gentlemen, he could not, in compliment to them, desist from a measure which his public duty required him to carry forward. But he would consult their sentiments and wishes in the arrangement as far as possible consistently with his duty, and it was a satisfaction to him to think, that the reduction he proposed would leave the militia still in a state in which its spirit would not be diminished, nor its character impaired, in a state altogether such that its commanders would have no reason to regret the change that would have taken place. It was not necessary in this stage of the business to go into the detail. The number it was proposed to take was 17,000, out of 68,000 that were now embodied. Thus the proportion that would be called upon to volunteer from each regiment was such, that it was not likely to deteriorate the part that remained. The greater proportion would remain, and may be composed of or may include those men for whom the officers had a predeliction. It was, indeed, a satisfaction that the militia was so constituted, that if its own officers were to chuse the men they were to retain, the remainder

Earl Temple, before he expressed his sen timents on the subject, wished to enquire of the right hon. gent. whether any order had as yet been given by government to facilitate the receiving men as volunteers from the Militia into the regular army.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer in reply, stated, that he had no reason to think that any such proceeding had taken place.— Orders might, indeed, have been sent to dispatch recruiting parties to receive such volunteers as presented themselves,

would be highly valuable to the army; or if | wishes and desires of the persons concer the officers of the army were to select those ed. It was not necessary to enter furth they would take, those who would remain into the details of the measure, unless a would be still valuable for the militia. The gentleman desired information on a par mode of regulating the volunteering that cular point. When the bill should be i he proposed was, that when the quotas for troduced, he would feel the same desire the counties should be fixed, and the orders attend to the suggestions of gentlemen as specifying the quotas they were respectively had in framing the measure in the first i to furnish, a time, not very long, should be stance, and above all, he should be caref allowed to each officer to select those of the not to diminish that spirit and pride whic men disposed to volunteer, with whom he was the most beneficial characteristic of th was most willing to part, and to tender militia, and the greatest advantage the cour them. If the men so tendered should try derived from those who devoted thei amount to four-fifths of the quota of the re- attention to this valuable branch of the pub giment, the regiment should be released lic force. He concluded with moving fo from all further claims. This regulation leave to bring in a Bill for allowing a certai afforded the commanding officer the means proportion of the Militia of G. Britain, vo of excluding all intervention that could be luntarily to enlist into his majesty's regula disagreeable to his feelings. If, on the ex-forces. piration of the term allowed, the proportion of four-fifths of the quota should not be furnished, the Commanding Officer was to have the liberty of setting apart one half of the regiment to constitute the foundation of the regiment that was to remain to him: the other half was to be han led over to government to take from it the proportion of volunteers to which it was entitled, the remainder to be given back to complete the regiment. If a greater number should volunteer than Government was entitled to take, they were to be reduced to the just Earl Temple resumed by arguing that this proportion by ballot. For example, in a very proposition before the house was the regiment of 1000 men to be reduced to 700, best possible proof of the inefficiency of commanding officer may set aside 500 men, that Defence bill of the right hon. gent. to whom no offer could be made, and who the repeal of which he had so vehemently were to remain to him without any disturb- opposed. Formerly the militia were only ance whatsoever. From the other 500 go-to undergo a gradual reduction, and the vernment would take its quota," and the re-right hon. gent. seemed to count days and mainder was to be restored to the command-months for the accomplishment of what his ing officer, to form his regiment at the re-bill was to effect for the recruiting of the duced establishment. Out of 68,000, the regular army, Now, however, these expresent amount of the effective Militia, pectations were shewn to be completely fal34,000 were to be set aside to remain un-lacious, and, therefore, to remedy this detouched, as the foundation of the 51,000, which would form the whole of the reduced Militia. When government would have taken its proportion of the other 34,000, that was about one half, the remainder would be restored, and if four-fifths of that proportion were provided and offered at the time limited, the regiments would remain undisturbed by any further call. Thus he set out on a proposition that left no room for jealousy to the commanding officers; and whatever mode was adopted the effect could not but be desirable to the regular army. The mode he proposed seemed altogether the best calculated to meet the

fect, the militia were not by slow gradations, but by one blow to be reduced to the num ber of 40,000. This, he maintained, was grossly unjust, and totally contrary to that principle of the abolition of the ballot which the right hon. gent, held out as the grand recommendation of his bill. Here, however, the militia being reduced to 40,000, to which number it was to be kept up, the ballot, as soon as ever any vacancies occurred, must come again into operation, Hardly 24 hours might clapse before the odious exploded system of ballot would be required to keep up the militia to its full complement, The right hon. gent, had

1

that recruiting parties from the 1st battalion of guards had actually appeared among the men, and endeavoured to seduce them from their present situation into the regular army. A letter had been written on this subject to the colonel of this battalion of the guards, and his answer was, "that these parties had gone down to places where militia regiments were quartered with the express view of receiving recruits from these regiments." When this was notoriously the fact, he hoped the house would hear no more of the delicacy with which the militia officers were to be treated. He would, on the contrary, maintain that such practices as those he had just alluded to were the most degrading that could be conceived to the feelings of the militia officers. The right hon. gent. had often talked of his affection for the

rested a great deal on the general conviction | been within these few days informed, by entertained of the necessity of a disposable the officer who commanded in his absence, force. He, for one, would be the last man to deny the existence of this necessity, but he did not on that account feel himself called on to admit this disposable force was to be obtained in the way now proposed. The right hon. gent. had said that never was there a moment when the ardour of the militia to volunteer into the regular army was more conspicuous. On this subject he had a few observations to submit to the house, but he would first of all refer to the pledges which the militia officers had at different times received on the subject of any future reduction. Under the former administration of the right hon. gent. a solemn pledge was given that the idea of reducing the militia, would not be again recurred to. He knew that it would not be regular in him to allude to what had passed in the other house of parliament. He might be per-militia; but he left it to the determination mitted, however, to state it as a matter of of the house how far such declarations were history, that a noble lord (Sidmouth) in entitled to any degre of credit. Every one another place, who was then in administra- of the right hon. gent.'s acts relative to the tion, on moving for extending the militia to militia seemed rather to prove that he was its present amount, did also give a solemn axious for the total abolition of the militia pledge that the system of the militia, should system. Could there be a greater proof of not henceforth be attacked. These two go- this than the practice to which he had revernments were now united, and he would ferred, which, though it might not have not take upon himself to determine how proceeded directly from the right hon. gent. much they coincided in opinion. He was was a proof of the general disposition of much inclined to think that they agreed in government. He complained too that courts nothing so completely, as in mutually for- martials, as well as sentences of courts margetting their pledges to the militia officers. tials, were suspended. Though he allowed He had already referred to an observation that this was for the purpose of applying of the right hon. gent. that there never was the new clauses of the mutiny act, he could a moment when the militia was more in- not help thinking that such a suspension at clined to volunteer into the regular army. the present period was at all judicious. It While such a statement went forth to the had a great tendency to excite a spirit of inpublic, it was requisite that the real state of subordination, particularly in the militia rethe case should be explained. At a meet-giments, combined with those arts of seing of Lord Lieutenants of counties, and duction, which he had felt it his duty to gentlemen interested in the preservation of condemn in the severest terms. He was the militia system, the right hon. gent. had wholly adverse to the measure, as a direct assured them that every thing should be tax on the landed interest. Every vacancy done in the gentlest manner possible, and that occurred would operate as a fresh tax, that all pains should be taken to prevent the and this too, after the solemn pledges to slightest insubordination in that part of the which he had referred. The Militia were militia, whose limited services were to be now to be reduced to 40,900, but how did continued. But how, in point of fact, did the house know how soon it might be rethe matter stand? He could on this subject duced to 20,000, or what arts might be take on himself to assure the house on the employed to encourage volunteering into most unquestionable authority, that means the regular army. The noble lord here of a very improper nature had even now again alluded to the arts employed to debeen resorted to, to procure volunteers from tach the militia from their commanders, the militia, and to detach them from their and touched on the pledges of the right hon. colours. He had himself the honour to be gent. to those present at the interview of colonel of a militia regiment, and he had which he had already taken notice. .