to law; and they tyrannize over the other although there was nothing intrinsically obcatholics. As long as such a body remain-jectionable in the prayer, "its being read by ed in that country, he felt most forcibly that a heretic was sufficient." And this learned it would be absurd to expect tranquillity or and liberal doctor, who was afterwards concontentment. There was nothing more re- nected with that union, which had in view a markable, the noble lord said, than the dif- separation from this country, issued orders ference between the catholics of England to the parish priests of his diocese to guard and Ireland. Having lived in a part of that against such a practice in future. With repart of the empire where there were many spect to the character of the higher orders catholics, he was enabled to speak to this of the Irish catholic laity, they were of two difference. In those parts of England where descriptions-the one possessed of landed catholics are resident, if one saw a farmer property and old established rauk-the other distinguished for temperance, cleanliness, were in possession of property also, but were and industry, it generally turned out that he new men. The former were interested in was a catholic; in Ireland it was directly the permanent peace of the country, and the reverse. What could be the cause of among this description of persons, the most this difference? He had asked an intelligent distinguished perhaps was a noble lord, whose English catholic, and the reason stated was name was subscribed to the petition on the this, that catholic clergy in this country table (Earl Fingal); that noble lord was a studied to promote peace; but those of Ire-man of good sense, loyalty and extreme moland found their account in pursuing an op- deration, when left to himself. But when posite course. So much was he persuaded he submitted to the advice of the hierarchy, of the justice of the remark, that the hie- his conduct bore a different appearance. rarchy was interested, and prone to excite It might be said, that what he had said tenddisturbance, that he sincerely lamented that eu to shew the propriety of going into the their abolition was necessary to secure peace. proposed committee. But, no; and for Nay more, he was thoroughly satisfied that this reason, that the changes he recommendsuch an abolition would be highly grateful to ed in the state of the catholics was not to be the better informed part of the catholics effected by legislation; it must come from themselves, as it would be for the interest of the catholics themselves. That change prothe whole body. This would be the more duced, many concessions might be made to readily admitted when he stated that peace the catholic body, that it would, under the and harmony was most to be found in the present circumstances, be extremely unsafe dioceses where there was no bishop, or where to agree to. Wherever religious establishthe bishop did not much meddle with the ment should be thought necessary, it was parish priests. That bishops were not es- indispensable for its maintenance that polisential, or desired by the catholic parish tical power should attach to it. On the priests, was apparent from the case of Cana- same principle that those who had no proda. There the priests complained of a bi-perty, were excluded from political power, shop's having been sent among them, al- should those who are hostile to the church leging that harmony prevailed among them establishment be excluded from the same until such an authority was placed over them. description of power-namely, that in either Having had communication with some in- case equal power might tempt to the astelligent, conscientious parish priests in Ire- sumption of an unfair claim of an equal diland, he had reason to know that the hie- vision. That the protestant religion was alrarchy in its present shape was not agreeable ways demeed essential to the maintenance to the people, and was peculiarly disagreea- of the constitution, by our ancestors, the ble to the more informed part of the clergy. noble lord quoted the case of the king of From those parish priests he learnt that Sardinia, who was excluded from the throne they were afraid to be known to hold any expressly because he was a catholic. Recommunications with protestants, lest they curring to the difference between the catho-. should incur the censure of their bishops. lics of England and Ireland, arising from the Indeed this statement was confirmed by a different constitutions of the hierarchy, the circumstance with respect to Dr. Hussey. noble lord cited the oath, which was, notA few catholic servants in a protestant fa- withstanding the objection of the apostolical mily were in the habit of joining in a cer- vicar, subscribed by the catholics of England tain prayer which involved no difference as in 1778, while the same oath-namely, a to any doctrinal point. The practice, how-test of allegiance to a protestant succession ever, being reported to Dr. Hussey, he in- only, was refused by the catholics of Ireland. stantly forbid it, stating as a reason that, The acceptance of this oath in the one case,

existed among the mass of the people of
Ireland, who were such catholics as he had
stated, a general hatred against the English
name; and an English government and
tyranny, or an Englishman and an heretic,
were with them synonimous terms; so that
it was impossible, consistently with the
safety of the protestants of Ireland, to grant
the prayer of this petition. He would ven-
ture to say, that if the prayer of this peti-
tion were granted, the result would be, that
except in part of the North of Ireland, and
perhaps the capital of that country, no pro
testant would dare to live in it. This he had
from information which could not be doubt-
ed; for a reverend prelate had told him that
he could not keep one protestant servant,
and much of this came under his own view.
He knew that none of the protestant in-
habitants of Dublin, who were parents,
could get their children into the service of
any considerable family, so that they were
obliged to apprentice them out to handicrafts.
Such was was the disposition of the catholics,
for whom this extraordinary indulgence was
now asked, that none of the protestant chil-
dren could find employment in the service.
of any considerable family in Dublin, and
this was the case generally all over Ireland.
Nor was this all, for no day-labourer could
find employment, unless he was a catholic.
He considered this proposed measure of what
was called relief to the catholics, as a mea-
sure so far from being likely to conciliate the
people of Ireland, that it would have the
effect, if agreed to, of driving out of Ire-
land all the protestants; for until the present
hierarchy of Ireland should be in possession
of all the ecclesiastical revenues of Ireland,
it was not to be supposed that they would be.
contented, and having gone so far in asking,
if they were successful, it was not to be sup-.
posed that they would not go further.
earlier days the catholic religion of Ireland
might have been put on the same foot-
ing as that of England, and then the ha-
tred to the protestants would not have sub-
sisted as now it does; but they had proceed-
ed on a wrong foundation, and had erred
on the system of intolerance in their princi-
ples much further than the catholics of
England had ever done; they could not
now, at least on the sudden, be brought
back from those errors into which their hie-
rarchy had led them. We must consider the
Roman catholics of Ireland as persons who
refused to submit to those laws and principles
of reformation which had transformed this
country from a catholic to a protestant
country. They were now disposed in Ire-

proceeded from the superior information of
the men, and the refusal of it in the other
from the superior influence of the bishops.
Dr. Hussey wrote a pamphlet against this
oath, arguing, that it would be monstrous
to call on a catholic to swear, that he would
not be faithful to a British sovereign, if that
sovereign should happen to be of the same
religion with himself, and this argument
succeeded. The noble lord stated the means
by which, in his judgment, the changes de-
sired might be produced in Ireland. If the
bible were translated into Irish, he was per-
suaded that very good effects would follow
-that many catholics would be converted
to the established church. The house would
recollect the consequences that arose from
the translation of the bible into the Welsh
language. The protestant service being
read in Ireland, in the English language,
which numbers did not understand, was a
great impediment to the conversion of ca-
tholics. They understood the Latin liturgy
much better-having it from early educa-
tion by note. The state of the church in
Ireland was, besides, very bad. There
were 2,400 parishes in Ireland, the bene-
fices of which were reduced to 1,100;
500 of them only had fixed residences, the
remaining 600 had no fixed residences: out
of 2,400 parishes there were not many more
than 1,000 churches. In many parts of Ire-
land there were excellent livings, very much
sought after, which had neither church nor
glebe-house. But if we were to set about
ameliorating the condition of Ireland, the
only way to do so effectually was to take
proper means to propagate the doctrines of
the protestant church, and if this were done,
he had very little doubt that Ireland would
soon wear a different appearance; provided
another thing was also done-that of pro-
viding for the safety of such inhabitants as
are protestants; for in a very large portion
of Ireland there could hardly be said to exist
such a person as a day labourer who was a
protestant; no one person of that persua-
sion could expect to be otherwise than
miserably treated by all his neighbours who
were catholics.
It was true he had the
sanction of the law for his profession, but
in Ireland the laws were not enforced as
they ought to be; there were many and de-
plorable defects in Ireland in that particular;
and they were chiefly owing to the power
and influence of the catholic hierarchy. It
was the interest of that hierarchy (and they
pursued that interest) to create a spirit of
animosity in the people of Ireland against the
protestants; the consequence was that there

In

sufficiently early to go through with the whole before twelve at night, or decency would require another adjournment.

Lord Hawkesbury declared, that unless the motion for adjournment specified the hour at which the debate was to be resumed, instead of leaving that point indefinite, he should be under the necessity of opposing the adjournment.

cellor for the adjournment, and from the vcices, the non-contents were declared to have it, and the house was about to proceed to a division, but did not divide. The debate was then resumed, and

The Earl of Limerick rose and spoke as follows:-My lords, exhausted by the excessive heat of the house, and by the very late hour to which the debate has been protracted, I own I regret that the proposed adjournment did not take place. Your lordships, however, will derive one advantage from my wearied state of mind and body, that I am totally unable to trespass for any length of time on your patience. I pro

land to resist the laws in that particular, and would continue to do every thing in their power to do so. They must, therefore, be dealt with accordingly, and under such circumstances it would be the greatest madness to put into their hands more political power than they possessed already. He admitted that this was holding out a melancholy prospect, but that he could not help, for it was truth exacted it of him; and al- The Duke of Norfolk thought that the though there was much force in the expres- regular way would be to put the question sion, that we ought to pay attention to the of adjournment generally in the first infeelings of the great body of the people stance; if that was carried, it would be of Ireland who were catholics, yet it did competent to any noble lord to move that it not follow that we were to abandon the in- be resumed at any hour he might think fit. terest, and indeed the safety, of the pro--(A great cry of go on! go on! go on!) testants of Ireland, at least until the Ro--The question was put by the lord Chanman catholics of Ireland shall put themselves in a different situation from that in which they are at present: until they should know how, like the catholics of England, to ask their priests and teachers, will you permit us to take the same oath as the catholics of England, they could not fairly or safely be trusted with that which the catholics of England enjoyed. When they should be permitted by their priests to take the oaths in like manner as the catholics of England did, they might be put in the same state of independence, they might then be worthy of the benefits they now seek; but as long as they remain slaves to the power to which they are at present slaves, his lord-test, with the utmost sincerity, that I ship said, he was of opinion they are not was desirous to reconcile it to my feelings worthy of what is now asked in their behalf. to give my vote on the present question, He had a great deal more to say to their without addressing your lordships. The lordships upon this subject, but he felt that subject under consideration is one, to a perhe had already trespassed too much upon son who thinks as I do, highly unpleasant their time, and he should, therefore, say to discuss, and to an Irishman, for many no more upon this occasion. reasons not necessary to allude to now, it is one of peculiar awkwardness; I could not, however, satisfy myself to remain behind the shield of silence, lest my doing so should be construed into timidity or want of decision. From much of what has fallen from several noble lords who have spoken in this debate, I am almost led to imagine that I have passed the greater part of my life in a dream ; that Ireland, where I The Duke of Norfolk again submitted to was born, and where I resided so many the house the propriety of adjourning, with-years, was not the kind of country I had out coming to any terms of compromise as to the time the subject should take up in future discussion, or the time when that discussion should be renewed. (Here there was a great cry of go on! go on! go on!)

The Duke of Norfolk rose to propose an adjournment.

Lord Hawkesbury said, he had no objection, provided it was understood the house should meet again the next day time enough to dispose of this question in the course of the evening; but if the adjournment was not proposed on these terms, he should feel it his duty to oppose it.

The Lord Chancellor said, that if the adjournment was carried, their lordships would understand that they should meet at an hour

considered it to be, and that all that had there passed before my eyes was merely a vision. The noble baron who opened the debate was pleased, in the beginning of his speech, to state, that the petitioners had suffered from party violence and party prejudice. I own I am at a loss to understand what the noble lord means; does he mean

me.

that the petitioners have suffered such vio- | had, I should have been one of the first to lence and prejudice from their own parlia- contradict it. In truth, my lords, I cannot ment, now no more? If he does, I, ha- help thinking, with great respect be it said ving been a member of that parliament for to the noble lord, that much of his lordmany years, cannot help stating that the ship's speech was consumed in conjuring up noble lord has so far been grossly misinform- phantoms for himself to buffet.-I will not ed: I am persuaded, from his known can- enter into the abstract question whether it dour, that he would not have made such an be safe to remove at once all those guards assertion, had he not been strongly assured and barriers which our ancestors thought of its truth. What, my lords, do the Irish essentially necessary for the preservation of catholics mean to say that they have suffered our constitution in church and state. I do from party violence and party prejudice not think it necessary to declare an opinion, from their own parliament ? Turn over the that the enlightened catholics of the present volumes of the ac's of that parliament since day do not entertain those principles of perthe year 1782, and you will in them find secution of persons of a different faith, and one continued chain of indulgences, re- of want of regard to oaths made to heretics, Jaxations, grants of privileges, and admis- which had formerly made them objects of sion of political rights, till at last little in- distrust and apprehension to protestant deed was left to bestow. This assertion of states; it would be idle to do so; nobody suffering from party, however, explains a now entertains any such opinions. - I am circumstance in the late transactions, which, well acquainted with many of the subscriI acknowledge, has considerably puzzled bers to the catholic petition, and I assert I was at a loss to conceive why Eng-with confidence, that they are not excelled lishmen, almost unacquainted with Ireland, in character, in loyalty to their prince, and were selected by the Irish catholics to pre-in attachment to the constitution, by any sent their petition, passing by all their coun- the most distinguished of the protestants. trymen in both houses of parliament. Were The noble lord (the earl of Fingall) whose there no two of them on whom they could name stands second on the list, is one of rely, or from whose party prejudice and the best and most distinguished characters violence they had not suffered? With the united kingdom can boast of.-I mean great respect to the noble lords who have to confine myself merely to this part of the spoken, I cannot help thinking that much subject, namely, whether this be the fittest of what has fallen from them might well time to bring the petition before parliament? have been omitted. What was the necessity The noble baron asserts it is, and at the of painting the wretched and degraded state same time declares, that he esteems the of Ireland during the long and gloomy period moments he presented it and argued on it suffered under the lash of the penal and its merits as the happiest of his life. I difrestricting statutes? That time, thank God, fer here from the noble lord; our opinions has long passed away, and I think it would are far as the poles asunder. What, my lords, be more consonant to that temper and mo- this the fittest time to agitate a question deration which the noble baron who opened which rouses every passion, and calls into the debate made a profession of, and which action every civil and religious prejudice ; the noble lord who sits near him appeared to this the fittest time, when the united kingme somewhat to depart from, had this part dom is assailed on all sides by the most of the subject not been brought forward.- formidable enemies, and when, at the mo I will not follow the noble lord through the ment that I am speaking, French emissaries different objections he stated as likely to be are traversing Ireland in every direction, made to his measure, because, I have not announcing an immediate invasion of that heard them made by any noble lord on this island, and promising to those who shall side of the house. Who has stated the principles join them the establishment of their reliof modern enlightened catholics to be those gion, and the property of those lands which entertained in the times of the first councils, they now hold as farmers ?-But the noble or in the dark and corrupt ages of the Ro- lord says, that any evils that may arise will man church? Who has stated the Irish be ascribable to those who reject the pecatholics to be irreclaimable traitors, and tition, not to those who bring it forward; therefore unfit to participate in the privi- that greater evils would have arisen from leges and distinctions of the constitution?- refusing to present the petition than any I have not heard any thing of the kind fall that can flow from agitating the subject; from the lips of any noble lord; if there that the catholics called eagerly for its VOL. IV. 3 Å

-

presentation. I lament I must again of this measure; that indeed the govern differ from the noble baron; I have ment made them no promises, but that some knowledge of that conntry, and, from all of us who supported the union, led every information I have been able to obtain, them to entertain such hopes. I acknowI decidedly assert, that the catholics were ledge that I did say to my catholic friends, not anxious to agitate the subject now; that that they would have a better chance of they did not think the time opportune, or success hereafter from an imperial than that they were now likely to obtain their from an Irish parliament; that an Irish objects. If my information is accurate, I parliament could never grant with safety believe it will be found that all the eager- what the united parliament might hereness to agitate the subject was on this side of after bestow. But I certainly held out to the water, and that the catholics were them no expectation of an early attaingoaded on by representations from hence to ment of their wishes. I am not, my lords, bring forward their petition. I do not ac- one of those who think that in no time, cuse the noble lord of being the person that under no change of circumstances, this spurred on the catholics. I know his public measure ought to be granted; that the spirit and character too well to suspect, for settlement of 1793 should be our ne plus. an instant, that he would lend his great and ultra, that here we ought to make our distinguished name to so mischievous a stand. I profess not to understand what measure. He knows that country too well, a ne plus ultra in politics means. Sure I from his former high station, to hazard am that no such principle is countenanced such a measure at this moment. I have in the practice of our constitutions; its not, however, the same good opinion of principle is to change as circumstances and others: I do believe that there are men times demand alteration. I trust and hope so desperate as to value at nought a gene- that a time may arrive when distrusts and ral convulsion, if they can worry a minister animosities may die away, when the two by bringing forward a subject, in the parties may meet half way, and when rediscussion of which they conceive he may ligious distinctions may no longer disturb be embarrassed by former declarations. the state. But, says the noble lord, grant Why is our country to be made the arena the prayer of this petition and you will at on which contending parties are to wage once do away all pretext for disturbance, war against each other? Oh my unfor- and you will at once become an united and tunate country! are you never to be at a happy people. I have the misfortune rest? I conjure the agitators of this mea- again to differ from the noble lord. I do sure to reflect ere it be too late: stir not solemnly declare, that I do not think a fire that is smothered, but not extin- that, by granting the prayer of this petition guished; the slightest spark may kindle to its fullest extent, you will advance, one into a blaze. Is it not sufficient that, in single step towards the tranquillisation of the short space of nine years, my poor Ireland. His lordship will not, I am sure, country has been racked by conspiracies, contend that it is necessary to bribe the disgraced by every crime contained in the catholic noblemen and gentlemen into loyroll of human wickedness, affrighted byalty, and as to the common people, I am invasions, and shaken to the very centre persuaded it would not gain over a single by civil and religious distractions? Is it peasant now tainted with disloyalty, and not enough that we have sacrificed our ready, at a moment, to join a French inva pride as an independent nation, and our der. No, my lords, seats, in parliament importance and influence as individuals, to and admission to the highest offices in procure, if possible, for our distracted land, the blessings of peace and security? We embraced an union to protect us. from ourselves; make not what we considered and hoped would prove a measure of safety, make it not, I say, a measure of mischief and disquiet. But the noble baron says, that the union is no union without this measure; that without, it we shall break faith with the catholics, who were induced to support the union by the expectations held out to them of the success

the state form no part of the wishes of
the Irish peasantry; were you to talk to
them on the subject, they would not under-
stand you. If you wish to conciliate those
now inclined to join the French, I will tell
you what you must do; you are the best
judges whether you are willing to pay so
high a price for their allegiance. Are you
ready to sacrifice the national church by
giving up the means by which it is sub
sisted? Are you ready to
sink your
revenue, by giving up all taxes upon spie