had been vested in other hands; in the hands of men of whom he was not disposed to speak with severity-but when he observed that they (he meant the catholic committee) employed as their agent Mr. Theobald Wolfe Tone, a man, not even of their own persuasion, who was the founder of the society of united Irishmen, who was at the very time employed in an attempt to form a traiterous conspiracy for the purpose of effecting a separation between Great Britain and Ireland, and who was engaged in a correspondence with the French government with a view to the procuring their assistance to further his designs, the noble lord would not say, that connection with such a man was proof of disloyalty, however obliged he might be to admit that it was calculated to excite suspicion. The noble lord then read from the publication (subsequent to the bill of 1793) of the proceedings of the Roman catholic committee, the following resolution: "Resolved, that the sum of fifteen hundred pounds, together with a gold medal, of the value of thirty guineas, bearing a suitable inscription, be presented to Theobald Wolfe Tone, esq. agent to the committee, as a testimony of his services and our gratitude." His lordship then adverted to what had fallen from the noble baron respecting the expectations the catholics might have been induced to entertain at the time the union was under discussion. The noble baron had fairly admitted that no pledge was given, whatever hopes might have been encouraged from an assurance that the situa◄ tion of the catholics would receive an impartial consideration in the parliament of the united kingdom. The noble lord said, as far as the observation could have reference to his sentiments upon the subject, having been one of the persons called upon to assist in preparing the articles, he must confirm the declaration of the noble baron, that no pledge had been given; but to what extent the catholics might have been justified in indulging a sanguine expectation from a discussion of their situation in the imperial parliament he could not attempt to form a con

cite considerable astonishment; and more especially with those who are disposed to resist the repeal of the test and corporation acts in Great Britain; and were it just, it must equally apply. What effect such a declaration might have upon the persons affected by those acts, he would not undertake to anticipate; but he did not think it consistent with that moderation which the noble lord had so strongly recommended. So far from agreeing with the noble lord, the earl of Buckinghamshire was decidedly of opinion, that considering the tenets of the Roman catholics, the indulgencies they had received from their sovereign and the legislature could only have been the result of a confidence in their loyalty; but so long as they acknowledged a foreign ecclesiastical jurisdiction within the united kingdom, it was impossible to entrust them with any large share of political power. Doctor Troy, a man of ability and unexceptionable character, in his pastoral letter of 1793, expresses himself in the following manner :"That catholics are obliged to believe as an article of their faith, that the pope or bishop of Rome, as successor of St. Peter, is the supreme visible head of the church on earth, and the centre of catholic unity, with a primacy by divine right, of real authority and jurisdiction in the universal church, and that all catholics owe him canonical respect and obedience on that account; and that the supremacy of the pope is one of those points on which all catholics are agreed as an immutable article of their faith." His lordship then put it to the house, whether persons professing such a doctrine could safely be admitted to the higher offices of state or to seats in parliament. His lordship then proceeded to state that the noble baron having appealed to those peers who had held official situations in Ireland for their sentiments respecting the loyalty of the catholics, he should declare his without any reserve. He was satisfied it was better for him to answer distinctly to that appeal, lest an interpretation should be put upon his silence which was not conformable to his real opinion. He had no hesitation in say-jecture. He certainly could not charge ing, that the conduct of the persons of high himself with having contributed to their disrank and the gentlemen of the old catholic appointment. In the house as well as out families had uniformly been distinguished by loyalty to their sovereign and attachment to the government of the country; but he was concerned to be under the necessity of adding, that those persons had ceased to have any influence upon the catholic body that the influence formerly exercised by them

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of it he had always stated the principle upon which he acceded to the union; a principle. that must preclude him from acquiescing in their being admitted to seats in parliament. The noble baron had felt, that whilst Ireland remained a separate kingdom, the objections to catholics being eligible to seats in

santry have freehold tenures. H then asked, if any person who w sant in the character and disposi Irish catholic, would venture to st an electioneering contest betwe testant and a catholic, the influe protestant landlord would stand tion with that of the popish priest guments deduced from the inter popish religion, the possible, or tain relief from the payment of t the variety of inducements which nuity of the priest would sugg leave no doubt of his ultimate suc mischief that must arise during the that such a contest would cont manner in which it would be and the animosities that it would lordship said, might be better und a recital from the history of Irelan any representation that he could n then quoted a passage from Leland describing the struggle for power w place in Ireland in the time of First, says: "Agents were dispat the pale into every province to su election of their friends, and to e assistance of every man of qualit rest in this time of danger. T preached the cause of religion, nounced their excommunications who should presume to vote ag friends of the holy Roman church ing endeavoured to convince th that, in three provinces out of Connaught, Leinster, and Munster presentation, with scarcely an e would be catholic, his lordship pro state, that in Ulster the catholic, protestant dissenters, constituted proportion of the population; and would leave to the house seriously

the house of commons were almost insuper-lands for lives, a great proportion able. The earl of Buckinghamshire was of opinion, though not exactly upon the same grounds, that the arguments against their sitting in the imperial parliament were equally forcible. In their (the catholics) situation, however, he could perceive a material difference. From being a majority in a separate, as they would become a minority in the united kingdom, their pride would naturally be less affected at the continuance of the disability. They might expect a more unbiassed consideration of their interests, when in their opinion local prejudices and partialities are less likely to prevail. The irritation that had been produced from a variety of circumstances, had a direct tendency to lead to such a conclusion, and his lordship saw no prospect of permanent tranquillity in Ireland, except by means of legislative union with Great Britain, With every disposition upon these grounds to give his support to that measure, his lordship expressly declared, that it would have met with his most strenuous opposition, if he could have anticipated the probability of an acquiescence in the prayer of the petition upon the table. It went, in the view he took of it, to the total annihilation of the protestant interest in Ireland. The system of representation, as settled at the union, had been so formed by the abolition of the boroughs, which had been created as a counterpoise to the power of the catholics, and by throwing the whole weight of the representation into the counties, that the share the protestants would be able to retain, after the catholics sat in parliament, would not be sufficient to leave them any influence in the country; and although the noble baron had treated such an idea with no small degree of contempt, saying, that nothing but bigotry could induce any man to entertain it, the noble earl was ready to acknowledge him-der the effects that such a weight o self a bigot upon that subject; having the ing interest thrown into the house most perfect conviction, that if such a step mons might have with respect to t was unfortunately taken as to admit the ca- rity of the church establishment tholics into the house of commons, in the soon the common object of all the course of a very few years there would might be accomplished, must depe scarcely be a representative from Connaught, circumstances; but that that obje Leinster, and Munster, that was not of that be the destruction of the propert persuasion. In those provinces the number church, no doubt could be entertain of catholics to protestants are computed as lordship then adverted to the evi six to one, and the freeholders in nearly the Doctor Macnevin, a catholic and a same proportion. The protestant landlords his examination before the committ would depopulate their estates if they attempt- Irish house of commons, in 179 ed to dispossess their catholic tenants; a "Have you seen a resolution of t measure at all events difficult to accomplish, ster provincial committee of the 1 as, from the practice in Ireland of letting the bruaiy, 1798, viz. that they would

church of England upon a similar foundation? The noble lord considered the experiment too desperate to be hazarded, and trusted their lordships would not make it. The principles established at the revolution were the landmarks by which he would advise their lordships to direct their conduct. The blessings they had enjoyed, by the operation of those principles, had not been equalled by the people of any country that had ever existed. The British constitution had stood firm amidst those storms by which Europe had been convulsed during the critical times in which it had been their lordships destiny to live. The interests of the church were so interwoven with those of the state, that the one could not be shaken without endangering the other. No substantial reason for the proposed innovation had been adduced, whilst much cause for remaining as we were was felt by every man. The people of England, he said, looked to the decisions of their lordships with an anxious expectation, and he trusted they would not be disappointed. Feeling as he did, that the prayer of the petition might be fatal to the title of the house of Brunswick to the throne of the united kingdom, his lordship would not place the noble lord upon the woolsack in the distressing predicament of presenting a bill to his majesty for his assent, which, exclusive of other important considerations, was calculated to destroy the permanent interests of his family. His lordship would be no party to such a proposition. By leaving the petition upon the table for so many weeks, the noble baron who introduced it, had given that time for deliberation that was due to the importance of the subject. He was persuaded, it had been fully, impartially, and most seriously considered. The result, in his mind, was a determination to vote against going into the committee.

diverted from their purpose by any thing which could be done in parliament, as nothing short of the total emancipation of their country would satisfy them ?"A. "I have." -Q. "Do you think the mass of the people in the provinces of Munster, Leinster, and Connaught, care the value of this pen, or the dip of ink which it contains, for parliamentary reform or catholic emancipation?". "I am sure they do not-but they wish much to be relieved from the payment of tithes." His lordship then said it was extraordinary to observe how much even the language of the protestant dissenter in England accorded with that of the catholic dissenter in Ireland. In the debate upon a motion for repealing the test and corporation acts in the year 1790, Mr. Burke, in the course of a most able speech opposing that motion, produced a letter written by Mr. Fletcher, a dissenter, stating, that the principles held at a meeting of dissenting ministers, at Bolton in Lancashire, were so violent that he would not stay; it described, that one member, on being asked what was their object, and whether they meant to seek for any thing more than the repeal of the test and corporation acts, answered in the language of our Saviour, "We know those things which we are not yet able to bear." And, on another member's saying, "give them a little light into what we intend," informed him," that they did not care the nip of a straw for the repeal of the test and corporation acts, but that they designed to try for the abolition of the tithes and the liturgy."-The noble baron had adverted to the apprehensions entertained from the introduction of forty-five members of the presbyterian church into the house of commons, at the time of the union with Scotland, and had asked how far the predictions of that day had been realized. The noble earl admitted that they had not. But he would ask, whether the day might not yet come, if the prayer of the catholic petition was complied with, when the fate of the church of England might depend upon the Scotch representation-when a question might arise whether the revenues of the church should not be made applicable to the exigencies of the state? The sentiments of the Irish and English dissenter had been already expressed. The church of Scotland has been emphatically described "as being built upon a rock of poverty;" and when a great object was to be obtained, who would be responsible that the Scotch members might not be disposed to place the

Lord Carleton said, that the measure proposed would affect the whole empire, but more particularly Ireland; therefore, several of the observations which he meant to make would specially relate to the measure, as it might peculiarly affect that country. The main object of the petition is power. In his opinion the Roman catholics already have as much power as they ought to possess under a protestant government, and therefore he would oppose the petition.The concessions in 1793, as to removing penalties, were wise, but, as to every thing beyond that, doubts might be entertained as to the wisdom of the measure. However,

it is to be observed, that the parliament of the state, is the reverse. An exclusion from Treland only gave the right to possess in-holding certain situations, deemed necessary ferior offices, but did not transfer the power of the state. The concessions already made to the Roman catholics have extended their influence, increased their demands, and multiplied their discontents. Nothing hitherto conceded has given them content; what probability is there that any thing short of all will satisfy them? To guard against their being superior in power, care must be used to prevent them being equal. The petition claims every thing; refusing to commit it is an answer to the claim of every thing. If there are minor concessions which might be safely granted, when the Roman catholics think fit to ask them distinctly as matters of favour, they may call for a distinct consideration. Catholics are not eo nomine excluded from holding any offices of the state, or from sitting in parliament. The obstacles which stand in their way are certain oaths, a declaration, and the sacrament of the Lord's supper, according to the rites and ceremonies of the church of England, which are to be taken by persons of every persuasion upon taking possession of office, and the same oaths and declaration to be taken on coming into parliament. Roman catholics are less restrained in Ireland than here; there the Roman catholic oath qualifies for all offices civil and military, save a few, which are specially excepted. Not so here; though the English Roman catholic oath is more forcible than the Irish, and binds the Roman catholic to support the protestant succession, whilst the Irish does not. He agreed entirely with the noble lord who immediately preceded him, in the well-merited eulogium which he had pronounced on the character and conduct of the Roman catholic noblemen and gentry of Ireland; they were men of great integrity, honour, and loyalty, and many of them had fought very gallantly in quelling the rebellion of 1798. They had disclaimed the obnoxious doctrines contained in the decree of the fourth council of Lateran. That disavowal was consistent with morality, social duty, and good sense. He gave credit to their assertion, and he did not rest his opposition to the petition upon those objectionable tenets; other tenets, which greatly influenced his opinion, were such as their religion bound them, as good catholics, to enforce. They were not such as reflected disgrace on the Roman catholics, though they might expose the constitution in church and state to some hazard. To tolerate is wise, to invest with the powers of

to the safety of the state, neither stigmatizes nor enslaves. An equal diffusion of political power amongst all the different sectaries would, in their union against the established religion, denounce its downfall by the systematic, persevering, deliberate, though slow conjunct exertions of religious zeal, political ambition, and inordinate thirst for power. To bestow such power on Roman catholics, and to with-hold it from other sectaries not belonging to the established religion, would prefer Roman catholics to some whose motives of action were less objectionable than those of Roman catholics. There is no foreign ulterior supreme authority which the tenets of other religions bind their professors to maintain as superior to the established legal government of the empire; but if Roman catholics were in possession of political authority, their religious principles would bind them to use it in an endeavour to render the constitutional authority of the empire subservient to a foreign dominion. By statutes passed in both countries in the reigns of Henry the Eighth and Elizabeth, in unison with various more ancient statutes, the king is declared supreme head of the church, and the pope's authority, spiritual and temporal, is, to all legal effect, declared void. The king, in virtue of this. authority, convenes, prorogues, dissolves, regulates and restrains synods or convocations, appoints or recommends to bishoptics and certain other ecclesiastical preferments, and has the dernier decision and appellant judicature over all ecclesiastical causes. That the authority of the state is not supreme in the countries subjected to its dominion is a most dangerous doctrine; any interposition in these dominions by a foreign judicature, governed by the laws of a foreign prince, laws tending to the subversion of the protestant religion, leads to ruinous consequences. Roman catholics acknowledge and pay obedience to a foreign, final, ecclesiastical authority, which can make laws upon spiritual subjects, and, in violation of the laws of these countries, enforce them (without the aid of any temporal process) by ecclsiastical coercion and punishment. That foreign ecclesiastical authority is under the influence of the ruler of France. Before the French revolution, if any potentate had attempted to enslave the pope, all other Roman catholic countries would have interposed in his behalf; such interposition against France cannot at this day be expect

objects Were Roman catholics possessed of temporal power, they must (acting conformably with the principles of their sect) use it to legally enforce Roman catholic ecclesiastical decrees; to give increased importance

religion; to legalize a foreign supremacy, that of the pope, with all its claimed temporal consequences; to overthrow the constitutional supremacy of his majesty, with all its now enjoyed temporal consequences; and to obstruct the execution or procure the repeal of all our laws which relate to spiritual affairs, howsoever extensively affecting temporal rights. It would be highly dangerous to afford the means of futurely weak

ed. The influence of the pope over Irish Roman catholics is now as great as it ever was, and the government of France guides its direction. The Roman catholic bishops' oath is," to defend the royalties of St. Peter, and to maintain, promote, and aug-to their religion; to depress the protestant ment the authority of the 'see of Rome." It embraces the supremacy of the pope's jurisdiction over all spiritual matters, and over all temporal consequences flowing from that spiritual authority, and calls for unceasing efforts to increase the power of the see of Rome. The Roman catholic bishops are bound to influence all persons who are under their superintendence to assist in fulfilling their oath. The Roman catholics hold that the state cannot bind them over to pas-ening in effect that supremacy of the king sive obedience in spiritual affairs, and that which is already openly denied in theory. the sole power of making and interpreting A participation of equal power must take all laws respecting spiritual affairs is vested in pre-eminence from the established religion; the pope or their church, consequently (as in such case how is the king's supremacy to they think) our laws cannot bind them, as to be maintained? What is to become of temporal matters inseparably connected with those acts of parliament which render it pespiritual matters.-Their opinion on this sub-nal to deny that supremacy? Is every atject derives additional weight from their con- tempt to invade it to be rendered legal? Is sidering Ireland as a fief derived under a grant a right to be conferred of denying it without from the pope, Dr. Troy's pastoral letter, control, and of obstructing it with impunipublished only thirteen years ago, strongly ty, and perhaps success? The ulterior supports those positions. It distinctly as-views of the Irish Roman catholics may be serts the pope's supremacy, even in matters of appeal, treats that of the king as an usurpation, and inveighs not very decorously against the legislature for having declared the king supreme head of the church. In Ireland, the Roman catholics hold regular ecclesiastical courts, whose decisions are completely enforced by ecclesiastical influence, lay submission, and the all-powerful effect of excommunication, prohibiting all intercourse with persons excommunicated. Their spiritual jurisdiction draws to it temporal power and influence; it involves dispensations, licenses to marry, legitimacy, and the right of succession, as dependent on the validity of marriage; pre-contract, former marriage, affinity and consanguinity, as incapacities; maintenance and liability to debts as consequences resulting from marriage, divorces as dissolving the bond of marriage, and the validity of wills of personal estate. In all those instances the exercise of spiritual authority influences temporal rights. The extent of that influence is liable to be greatly increased, as Roman catholic ecclesiastics claim the right of deciding what are spiritual matters within their cognizance, and by an undue exercise of that claim of power, they may greatly extend their influence over temporal VOL IV.

strongly collected from the caution used in framing their oath, in the 13th and 14th of George III. cap. 35. in which they have adopted the expressions, "the succession of the crown in his majesty's family," declining to adopt the expressions which the English Roman catholics had no hesitation to make use of, in the 31st George III. cap. 32d, "which succession is limited to the princess Sophia, &c. and the heirs, of her body, being protestants." In the one case the oath binds to the support of a protestant succession; in the other case it leaves an opening for the possibility of a Roman catholic succession. Can it be supposed that the Roman catholics, if possessed of considerable political influence and power, would not seek an exemption from contributing to the support of the protestant clergy; a church establishment for the Roman catholic clergy equally splendid, permanent and independent as that of the protestant clergy, and a recognition of the laws of the Roman catholic church, and of the competence of the authority of their courts? Thus tithes must be annihilated, or divided between the protestant and Roman catholic clergy, and the supremacy of the pope, or, in othe words, of the ruler of France, must be completely established.—A number of acies

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