almost equal to the full contents of Ireland | viction which has, during ages, influenced was forfeited by the rebellions of Desmond the conduct of the parliaments of England and Tyrone in the reigns of Elizabeth and and Ireland, and has guided the actions of James I. and by the rebellions in 1641 and the most eminent men of those countries, 1689. Most of the protestant titles in that and of the mass of the people. For what country are derived under those forfeitures, purpose? To uproot every thing which has and grants from Elizabeth and James; the been deemed solemnly sanctified and settled; Irish acts of settlement and explanation in to unsettle the church, the influence and the reign of Charles II. and grants by Wil-property of the protestants, and to elevate liam and Mary, and the English statutes the members of the Roman catholic persuaof their reign, and that of Queen Anne. sion upon the depression of those of the Roman catholics still settle those estates as protestant. It is supposed, by some perif they were in possession of them, to per-sons, that the length of time which has petuate, to those who are to succeed them, elapsed since making the grants of the forthe idea that those estates had once belonged feited estates, imposes insuperable difficulties to their families, and might be again enjoy- in the way of Roman catholics establishing ed by their descendants, if the claim to their titles; and that since the relaxing laws them were persevered in, thus to stimulate of 1778 and 1781, Roman catholics have to keeping up the claim. In 1644, the con- acquired so much property under the titles to federate Irish Roman catholics demanded, the forfeited estates, that, in maintaining their "that there should be a revision of all for- own rights, they must defend the titles to feitures, &c. and grants from the crown from the forfeited estates, and that the Roman 1588, (eighty-six years) by a free parlia-catholics have solemnly disciaimed all title ment."-In 1689, a bill passed the parlia-to the forfeited estates. The repeal of the ment of Ireland to repeal the acts of settle- Irish acts of settlement and explanation, ment and explanation. Not many years ago and of the English acts of William III. and maps of the Irish forfeited estates were Anne, relating to forfeited estates, would industriously circulated on the continent, annul all the protestant titles founded on an indication that some important object them, and expose the possessors to all the was looked at for attainment, and that it hazard, uncertainty, litigation, and expense was desirable to conciliate foreign catholic which might be brought upon them by oppotentates, with a view to the success posite claims, whether maintained by true of that project. Since the union it has or by false evidence. Dispossession and ruin been openly avowed," that the revolution would be the consequence to individuals; was an usurpation, the exclusion of Roman the public, the result would be unsettling catholics from seats in parliament an excess the property and power of the country. The of the power of the legislature, that the old estates of inheritance acquired by Roman Roman catholic proprietors never had of- catholics since the relaxing laws are as yet fended, that the "confiscations were unjust, inconsiderable. The religious zeal of Roman and that the present possessors held by usur- catholics holding leases under the forfeited pation, and ought to be dispossessed." Why? titles, would induce them to think that if Truly to produce unanimity, cordiality, and the inheritances were restored to the famiaffection between the several sectaries in Ire- lies of the ancient proprietors, Roman caland. Thus no length of time and enjoy- tholic tenants, assuming the merit of having ment can sanctify title, no concurrence of aided the restitution, might be sure of ha circumstances can preclude re-assumption; ving their leases confirmed by landlords of attainders, acts of parliament, purchases, their own persuasion. Thus neither the settlements, long possession, prescription, inheritance nor the derivative interests would are to be inefficient in giving title. The protect the protestant titles against the varimost solemn acts of the legislature, and of ous incentives which might combine to decourts of justice, done whilst the transactions feat them. The present laws, aided by a were recent, and the evidence existing, protestant government and protestant constiwhich have been acted upon and enforced tution, do protect them. Any other produring successive ages; titles created under tection would be ineffectual. Of what avail those acts, and infinitely branched out and would the disclaiming of Roman catholics be diversified for most valuable considerations, if they acquired power to enforce their are now, when the evidence is lost or mis- claims, when they have already, since their laid, to be presumed unfounded, contrary supposed disclaimer, though not yet possessto the light of history and to that con-ed of sufficient power to establish their de

to

real objects of the Roman catholics. It resolved that "the objects of their pursuit were merely admission to the bar, county magistracies, serving on juries, and voting for members of parliament out of freeholds of 201. per annum." The claims made by the convention extended, in the instances of admission to the bar and county magistracies, beyond the objects pointed out by Byrne's letters of summons; but neither his letters nor the resolution of the convention in any respect related to the avowed or real objects of the conspiracy at that time formed for the rebellion which took place in 1798; nor did they include any claim to the great offices of the state, or parliamentary representation. The equivocal expression of

In

mands, revived their claims to the forfeited | tion accordingly assembled in that year: estates? How have their stating specific there never was any doubt that it sat as a objects, as exclusive of all others, in various Roman catholic convention, and it most certransactions of the year 1792, prevented un-tainly was the organ for expressing the then qualified demands in 1794, ant down to the present period? If the Roman catholics were to obtain restitution of the forfeited estates, the country would be ruined. If they failed as to that their main object, conciliation would not be the result of concession. This country never can, consistently with any principle of policy or common sense, give way to the claim of restitution. That is a great object looked at as the result of power. Separation then of Ireland from Great-Britain would, whilst any expectation was entertained of procuring restitution, be the only means of obtaining an object otherwise unattainable. That expectation must be repressed by a prompt and decided resistance, demonstrating the determination of the state to direct the whole of its force catholic emancipation" was not adopted in opposition to the attempt. It has been therein. Those could not have been real said that "the measure, if adopted, would ingredients in the plan of insurrection then secure the country against future rebellions, formed, nor were they in any respect conconciliate the Roman catholics, and inse-sistent with the nature of that plan, which parably unite them and the protestants." proposed not merely to alter the constituTo judge of this reasoning it is necessary to tion, but to form an entirely new one. advert to the objects which the rebellion of 1792, Sweetman, with some other traitors, 1798, and its off-shoot, that of 1803, look- was a member of the convention; he took a ed at. And here, my lords, I shall brief- distinguished lead in defending the defenly take a review of some leading facts, ders of that day; but such of the members and of the motives which led to the rebel- of the convention as were loyal looked only lion of 1798, as they have been disclosed to such objects as were within the reach by those who best knew them, the leaders of possible attainment, and such as were of that insurrection. In 1791 the society traitors had separation and independence, of united Irishmen was established; its ob- not catholic concessions, in contemplation. jects were evidently rebellious; it aimed at In the same year a petition from the inhabithe entire overthrow, not merely any ima- tants of Belfast to the house of commons of gined improvement, of the existing consti- Ireland was preferred, praying a repeal of tution. This is demonstrated by a letter all the penal and restrictive statutes against from Tone directed to a person in Bel- Roman catholics; but it did not state that fast, and containing the resolutions which "the petitioners were Roman catholics." were afterwards (with a small variation) Afterwards, in the same year, a petition adopted in the public declaration of the was presented from the Roman catholics, Dublin society of united Irishmen, upon praying "a removal of some of the civil the 9th of November 1791; in that year incapacities under which they laboured, and and 1792 the foundation of the rebellion of a restoration to some share in the elective 1798 was laid. In 1792 Tone published in franchise." Before the convention broke favour of independence, and separation of up, it appointed a permanent committee. Ireland from England. In the same year, In 1793 petitions from the Roman catholics Edward Byrne, an eminent Roman catholic were presented to the house of commons of priest, issued letters to the several parish Ireland, referring generally to a variety of priests of Ireland, directing that delegates severe and oppressive laws inflicting disshould be elected by their several parishes qualifications. In the same year more was to sit in a Roman catholic convention; his granted by the parliament of Ireland than letters stated, that " serving on juries and the Roman catholic resolutions of 1792 had the elective franchise were the objects to be claimed, and the liberality of parliament discussed by the convention." The conven- exceeded the full extent of those claims. In

catholic representation, or of th hold every species of office as which the rebellion was calcula dress. Thus, at the first format plan of rebellion, the Roman ca not made the claims which are no forward, and at the final execu

the contemplation of the consp the intermediate steps they were ly as pretexts. In the month 1798, a report of the committee o of lords of Ireland stated, that on his examination said, "It tended to have any religious esta and that the mass of the people i Munster, and Connaught did n reform or catholic representatio were the principal Roman catholi On the 23d of July 1803 the la broke out; it was formed on the ciples as the former rebellion.to the before-mentioned chain o to the several reports made by t tees of the houses of parliamen in 1793, 1797, and 1798, it a the real objects which the tw sought to attain, were the an tithes ; the lowering of rents; a tribution of property; the level ranks and orders of the state; s Ireland from England; the de the monarchy; and the establis democracy on the principles French republic. The Roman ca were not objects sought by the lions: had those claims been ded, they would not have prev rebellions; were they to be no every motive which led to tho would still exist to conduce to bellion. Few of those who we in these rebellions had any inte lishing the Roman catholic clain phlet published by a late respec catholic nobleman suggested th of the people could be little ber adoption of such a measure as

1794 Tone traitorously corresponded withing that event, point out the want the government of France, and in the month of April in that year, the traiterous consultation in Newgate took place, an invasion of Ireland was then planned, and the reasons for it, and to induce the French to invade, were digested. Neither catholic representation, nor the capacity to fill the great offices of the state were objects allu-plan the Roman catholic claims w ded to, though Tone, who was one of the conspirators at that meeting, was an accredited agent of the Roman catholics: nor was the establishment of the pope's supremacy, though Dr. Troy's pastoral letter had been published before that time. In December 1794, an address to a nobleman who speedily afterwards was sworn in chief governor of Ireland was signed by several Roman catholics, and amongst others by Sweetman, M'Nevin, and M'Cormuck, desiring in substance the repeal of all laws which restrained Roman catholics from the possession of power; thus laying aside the limited claims contained in Byrne's letters of summons, in the resolutions of the convention in 1792, and in the Roman catholic petition of the same year, and claiming equality in every respect with the protestants. In April 1795, the convention passed its resolution in favour of Tone: Lewins and M'Nevin were at that time members of it. The speeches in the convention (as communicated to the public) breathed separation of Ireland from Great-Britain. At that period those rebels, who had taken the lead in the convention, marked its proceedings as embracing the real objects of the plan which had been formed for the destruction of the monarchy however, this observation does not include the Roman catholics in general, nor indeed all of the delegates. Between June 1795 and January 1796 a traiterous correspondence was carried on between the society of united Irishmen and the executive directory of France, to procure an invasion of Ireland; and upon the 21st of December 1796 the invasion was attempted by Hoche. On the 12th of May 1797 a report was made by the secret committee of the house of lords of Ireland, which states, that " parliamen-is now proposed, they being al tary reform and Roman catholic emancipa- of every thing which their sit tion were held out by the united Irishmen entitle them to, and that proba as a pretence, and to seduce persons not ap- than ten on the part of Ireland prised of their intentions.” Upon the 23d the house of commons of the u of May 1798, the first rebellion broke out; nor more than one in the ho neither the proclamation which had been nor more than forty or fifty be prepared by the Sheares's to be issued upon offices of rank, trust, or emolu the breaking out of the rebellion, nor the the numbers to be gratified by other transactions preceding or accompany- gift are so few, that the con

zard. The fluctuation of property in a commercial country, and of the relative numbersof persons composing the several sects, connected with the known perseverance of the Roman catholic body, renders it unsafe to trust to their not being able futurely to do injury because at the present day they are unable, not being possessed at present of sufficient political weight and influence. Their unremitting zeal in pursuit of politicalinfluence and authority, their implicit submission to one ruling and foreign power to the exclusion of the supreme authority of the state, their being all governed by one com

attained must be equally circumscribed; there being few capacitated to be candidates, the with-holding the objects claimed is felt by few; there are few to complain of injury, few to acknowledge and be thankful for favours conferred. Hence a concession productive at this day of small conciliation of the Roman catholics, of great dissatisfaction on the part of the protestants, might lay a foundation, when the political importance of the Roman catholic body became more considerable, for hazarding the safety of the state, and exposing it to the persevering efforts of unremitted zeal, guided by one common principle, and one all-mon principle, and firmly linked together by ruling influence. It may be imagined by some, that though the mass of the Roman catholics have no interest in the objects claimed, it may be proper to concede them, in order to win over those persons of rank and property who have the power of influencing the great body of the Roman catholics. The lower orders have been influenced, not by the respectable and loyal members of the same religious persuasion (who have an interest in the claims now set up), but by factious demagogues of various persuasions, who aimed at rebellion, not at reform, or catholic claims, and would have been equally active in disseminating rebellion, if any concession had been made short of annihilating the monarchy. It cannot be expected that the mass of the lower orders of the Roman catholics should cease to be actuated by those interested motives which have heretofore influenced their conduct, because of a concession being made to some of the higher orders, of privileges not to be enjoyed by the mass of the people; in which they have no interest, and by which their conduct has not heretofore been guided. It has been argued, that the influence which the measure under consideration would confer, at present must be small, probably never can be great, and therefore there cannot be any danger; or if any, it must be remote. In the reign of James II. both houses of parliament were protestant, yet the other branch of the legislature was near succeeding against them both, in the establishment of popery. James II. professed to intend for the Roman catholics only an equality of privileges;" that equality would have occasioned the downfall of the protestant religion: it was therefore resisted. The resistance was ultimately successful; but the danger having approached too near, the success of the resistance was attended with difficulty and ha

one general rule of action, render it not wise: to intrust them with power upon a supposition that, because it might at the commencement be inconsiderable, it could not hereafter be rendered dangerously great. Sixtyfour of the Irish members of the house of commons sit for counties, and many of the other thirty-six for open boroughs. The priests must have considerable weight in influencing the elections, as between protestant and Roman catholic candidates; and were Roman catholics eligible to parliament, probably at a period not very remote the representation on the part of Ireland would be: completely Roman catholic. That body of men would enjoy a great part of the Irish patronage. Who can measure the influence. of a body of men so constituted? who can foretel what they might effect by a junction at a critical moment with other bodies of men, standing in need of their assistance, and ready to make them a proportionate return of favour and support? To conciliation and unanimity there ust be two parties— the Roman catholics, and all the protestants of the entire empire; and their mutual concurrence will scarcely be obtained by hold-ing out to the Roman catholics the possibility that, by unremitting perseverance on their part, the laity may be restored to the forfeited lay property, their ecclesiastics to: the church lands, the supremacy of the pope be established, and a Roman catholic ascendancy be substituted in the place of the protestant ascendancy, and by conveying to the protestants the idea that whatsoever the Roman catholics gain, the protestants must. lose. The number of Roman catholics is to be considered in relation to the whole empire. In ascertaining the class of persons in whom the power of the state is to be vested, property, rank, respectability, talent, knowledge, judgment, and congeniality of principles which those of the state, are more to

of legislation are directly opposed to each other, and here the most efficient part of the legislature is popular, and elective; hence a way might be opened by admitting Roman catholics into parliament, and the great offices of the state, towards investing them with a dangerous influence. The possession of inferior offices gives some influence, but does not transfer the sovereignty of the state. It is true that Scotch presbyterians sit in parliament, but they take the same oaths, and sign the same declaration as protestants; they give the same tests of fidelity and allegiance, and submission to the supreme authority of the state, as protestants of the established church, As to the Scotch noblemen and gentlemen who in the course of the debate have been described as having held some of the great offices of the state with honour to themselves and benefit to the public, they were protestants, and had taken the usual qaths, signed the declaration, and received the sacrament according to the usage of the church of England. The adoption of the innovation now proposed would new-model the constitution, would violate the principles of the reformation, the revolution, the act of settlement of the crown, and the two acts of union; might substitute the pope's supremacy in the place of his majesty's, might discontent the loyal protestants, who have preserved · and strengthened the connexion between Great Britain and Ireland, without contenting the Roman catholics; might unsettle the lay and ecclesiastical property of Ireland, might revive all those mischiefs which the revolution was calculated to redress, and might destroy the present establishment in church and state.

be attended to than numbers. If numbers | tholic clergy. Their notions as to the power and physical force unaccompanied by political weight and influence, whilst they can be brought into action only in opposition to, and under the controul of the laws, and of the systematic authority of the state, are to excite apprehension, how much more serious cause of alarm would there be, if the same physical strength were aided by political weight and influence, moulding and shaping the laws so as to give a free and uncontrouled course to such conjoined force? Let it be understood that political power to unsettle the state is unattainable, and the dangerous consequences of pursuing projects of innovation in violation of the law, and in opposition to the protestants of the empire, and all the honest and loyal men of the Roman catholic persuasion, will not be risked. The church and the state are necessarily connected, each giving support to the other. Roman catholics hostile to the one, cannot have the same attachment to the other as protestants have, whose tenets are not hostile to either. Notwithstanding that the monarch must not only be but must always have been protestant, were his advisers (upon whose judgment he is to act) to possess principles not congenial with those of the state, the constitution must gradually (and the more dangerously, because perhaps imperceptibly) be impaired. In this country tests were adopted gradually, and in succession, with great and progressive caution-first as to corporation offices, then as to offices held under the state, then as to both houses of parliament, and then as to the throne, each successive regulation being adopted from conviction that it was a necessary addition to the then existing regulations. To annul all those regulations would be a most hazardous experiment. Are Roman catholics to be admitted into the English share of representation? If not, upon what principle can they be excluded from thence, if not also excluded from the Irish share? Are any other sectaries to be excluded, though they do not uphold a foreign dominion, and nevertheless Irish Roman catholics, who maintain the supreme jurisdiction of a foreign spiritual authority, to be admitted In Roman catholic countries the general tenor of the laws is conformable to the Roman catholic religion. The power of the government is somewhat despotic; to support that there is a strict alliance between the church and state: there can be no such alliance between a protestant government and a Roman ca

Lord Hutchinson. My lords: in the course of this debate, the catholic hierarchy, the priests, the catholic religion, have been treated with the most unqualified censure, and with an asperity which I little expected to find in this enlightened assembly. It is one of the misfortunes of the catholic cause, that, composing as they do the great mass of the indigent population of Ireland, they are liable to every misrepresentation; the crime of the individual becomes the offence of the sect; the highest man in the community is made answerable for the conduct of the lowest the religion itself is censured for the commission of those very acts which it reprobates and condemns.-Many allusions have been made to the late rebellion. Whatever that rebellion might have been, it