Cobbett's Parliamentary Debates, During the ... Session of the ... Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and of the Kingdom of Great Britain ...

all the ecclesiastical functions attached to and with it the freedom of religious opithat rank in the established church; and nion. It becomes, therefore, the enlightened said it would have belonged to the character liberality of a British senate, enjoying themand firmness of his noble and learned friend selves that freedom of opinion, to allow o the moment he discovered those men as- all men the right of thinking as they please suming the titular dignities of the established in matters of religion. How can a belief n episcopacy, or discharging their functions the doctrine of transubstantiation, or any in ecclesiastical polity, in open rebellion other speculative tenet in religious faith, inagainst the laws, to have directly conveyed a fluence any man's conduct on political sub-formal complaint to his Majesty, and to have jects? or the difference between a belief ‹f commenced legal proceedings against them. seven sacraments or two, render a man poThe Duke of Norfolk.-My lords, not- culiarly fit or unfit for political confidence withstanding what has been alleged by noble or parliamentary representation, who has lords, that no pledge had been held out to the same education, is born and educated the catholics of Ireland at the period of the under the same government, and holds the union, to grant, as a condition of that mea- opinions in common with other subjects in sure, the final emancipation their petition this realm upon political topics? or, where now claims, I have had very strong grounds is the ground of apprehension that men who to rely that at least such an understanding have received all their opinions under a Briwas forcibly entertained; and I am there-tish constitution, will, when they are adføre for going into the committee, if it were mitted to participate in all the blessings of only to investigate the terms upon which that constitution, which they now anxiously the union was negotiated, in order to dis- pray, endeavour to excite anarchy for the cover the truth. The noble person, under purpose of subverting it, and of erecting in whose administration that measure was ne- its place a foreign tyranny, and restoring the gotiated (Marquis Cornwallis) has rendered despotism of the Romish church? If any many signal and important services to the thing could excite a disposition to anarchy, British empire; and none more important it would be the perpetual refusal of admitthan the acquisition of that measure. I have ting the catholics to the blessings of a conbeen very credibly informed, that under that stitution, in. which, once affiliated, every administration, assurances were held out to disposition to anarchy or even discontent the catholics of Ireland, from the highest must cease, and a real union of interests and authority, that their final claims should be attachments follow. A noble and learned ceded, as a condition for their acquiescence lord on a former night (lord Redesdale) has to that measure; for, otherwise, the union complained much of the influence of the could not have been carried. The refusal Roman catholic bishops, and their contunow will be to them, therefore, a bitter dis macy in assuming episcopal functions; but appointment: they will conceive themselves in a religious point of view, I conceive them the dupes of false promise and deception, to be as much bishops, and to have as good a and their minds will feel all the irritation right to exercise episcopal functions for the natural to men of any sensibility under such spiritual direction of their own sect, as a y circumstances. A reverend prelate has talk-right reverend prelate on that bench. if ed of toleration in the inild and beneficent principle of the church of England. In the spirit of that principle, therefore, I wish your lordships to act on the present occasion, and not to persist in a principle of excluding British subjects from their natural and political rights, merely on account of their religious opinion. It is the church of Rome which withholds from its votaries the right of exercising their own judgment upon religious topics, and to dictate to men's minds the points of faith; from which it allows no man to hold a different opinion, even in a single iota. But to the energies of our ancestors we owe that resistance to such despotism over men's minds and con sciences which produced the reformation, VOL. IV.

they abuse those functions by any tyrannical exertion of them, they are indeed highly reprehensible, and would really deserve punishment. But the noble and learned lord, at the same time that he complained of the influence of the catholic hierarchy, the slow progress the reformation had made in Ireland, and the unwillingness of protestants to reside in some districts, owing to that influence, stated also another cause, to which I am much more inclined to attribute those circumstances, namely, the state of the protestant churches in Ireland, of which the noble and learned lord had drawn so deplorable a picture. How is it reasonable to expect that protestants, having any sense of their religion, would reside in parishes, 3 E

Lord Harrowly could not agree that it was a fit moment to agitate the question, if their lordships were not prepared to think it a fit moment to concede what was asked.

connected with the state; with it try has grown to greatness, and has a tendency to weaken or de establishment of the church, ten destruction of our monarchy, ou and our political existence: seco all the examples that have been pr

above one thousand of which, and many of them good livings, the noble and learned lord has stated there are in Ireland, where there is neither protestant church nor protestant clergyman-and which parishes, as he states, are anxiously sought for as sinecures by protestant clergymen, whose duty it is to preach the Gospel, and to propagate the re-persons of different religions bein formed religion? or how can it be expected to serve the state in other countri that Roman catholics are to be converted to degree apply to this kingdom, that religion in those extensive quarters of countries are subject to arbitrary the country where it is never preached? I ment; and I will venture to say earnestly hope that this subject will seriously instance can be shewn of a free st occupy the attention of parliament, and that a free parliament, in which person some means will be contrived to remedy so ing a faith distinct from that esta glaring an evil. But, my lords, feeling no have obtained much weight and con apprehension of the slightest danger from In discussing this question, it granting the prayer of this petition, I shall considered what is asked, how wha vote for going into the committee. is to be attained, and what is to tuted in the place of that you tak What is asked is catholic emanc term unfitting for this question, o assembly. Emancipate the catho they require the prætor's wand leased from servitude, to hold pro be protected in their persons and They are as free as any subjec world. Do you talk of emancipat holders, custom-house officers, ficers? The term, as it was first applies to emancipate Ireland, that parate Ireland from the governme connexion with England. -But asked? to abolish all distinctions protestant and. papist, to place upon an equality with the protesta any distinction remains, howeve special, the grievance remains. it is asked, as it has been argued. purpose you cannot move a step w repeal of the test and corporation the opinion of many, and to the which the arguments lead, you mu peal the act of supremacy and u the bill of rights, the act of settle act of union with Scotland, and king's coronation oath. There pe arise a question between origina and the supremacy of parliament. tionably our laws are not like the Medes and Persians, that alter questionably no parliament has gre than the succeeding one; but to argue this question, that, consi solemnity attendant upon these 1 most unwise to raise doubts, and minds of men upon points which the opinion of many, strike at the of, and right to the crown itsel

The Earl of Westmorland.-My lords, having been one of his majesty's servants at the time the union was framed, having been in some degree alluded to in the course of the debate, and the importance of the measure, will be my excuse, however ably the subject has been debated, for stating the grounds of the vote I shall give this night. Having, whilst I had the honour of serving his majesty in Ireland, twice given his majesty's sanction to important favours to the Roman catholics of that kingdom; having been twice thanked by that body, and assured that the period of my administration would ever be remembered with gratitude by the catholics of Ireland, I trust, in giving my decided negative to the motion of the noble lord for a committee, it is unnecessary for me to relieve myself of any suspicions of being actuated by superstition or bigotry, or a want of principles of liberality or toleration. To toleration in the exercise of his religion and enjoyment of property, every subject, except under imminent circumstances, has a right; beyond this the exercise of political power is a question not of right but of expediency; a right which every state has exercised, which every state will exercise, in defiance of all the new theories, in defiance of the doctrines of the rights of man, and the bleeding example of the French republic.-Before I enter into the discussion of this question, I will preface two observations: first, notwithstanding the new opinions, that in this country the ecclesiastical establishment is inseparably

urgent and pressing necessity, without being convinced, first, that you will do no harm; next, that you will do essential benefit; and, lastly, that you have a plan to establish, for that you mean to take away. Now, what are the reasons assigned for this measure? -that it will tend to the settlement and tranquillity of Ireland. Serious as I consider many other parts of the subject, if I thought it would have that effect, I would enter into a consideration of it: but it is because I am of a diametrically opposite opinion; because I am convinced that, at this period, it would plunge that country into confusion, I am decidedly against it. I should be glad to ask, if it is likely to tend to the tranquillity of a country composed of two descriptions of inhabitants, the one possessed of the property and the magistracy, few in number, contending and protecting themselves against the more numerous class, to open every situation as a scene of contest? I consider the first operation of this measure to be, to make this country a scene of confusion, corruption, and riot, not only for parliament, but for magistracy, and situations in all the towns, as described by Lucan,

Lethe lisque ambitus urbis

said upon it for the sake of tranquillity ? First, I look to the year 1782; then all the grievances of the nation were brought forth' by the patriots of that period, various,simple repeal, independent parliament, free' trade; not a word of religious grievances. I proceed to 1789; grievances enough, wrongs enough of a noble marquis, wrongs that will never be forgiven by those who wished to risk the separation of the countries for the sake of party, nor forgotten by those who know that, by his ability and firmness, he preserved that kingdom to his sovereign, and the connexion 1 between the countries. The parties in parliament, and the Whig Club, stating all the grievances; not a word of religious. grievances. Is it to be believed, that the great patriots of the day should not have mentioned religious grievances, if any such oppressed the people? I proceed farther to the year 1791; relaxation was given to the catholics in England; the Irish catholics naturally applied; what happened? the Irish house of commons would not grant the claims; no-they threw the petition off the table, twenty-three only objecting.➡ Now I argue not the right or the wrong on this subject; but this I contend, that the Annua venali referens certamina campo. great patriots of that time would not have The priest at the head of his flock, leading rejected these petitions if the state of the them to every outrage, and religious bigotry laws had been an oppression to the councarried to the utmost extent. The power try. When, then, was the discovery made? of the protestant landlords would have no why as soon as it was discovered that the effect against a religious combination.- government of England wished to do every Next, what are the causes of the discontents thing that was proper for the catholics, then in Ireland? high rents, heavy taxes, tithes, the grievance was made out, then the pathe property possessed by persons speaking triots began to cry out; and whatever was a different language, of different manners given, the determination was to ask for and habits from the peasantry, a double more, so the more we give, the more we clergy, the protestant clergy in affluence, shall be asked, till your lordships have nothe catholic in poverty. May I ask, which thing more to surrender. May it be asked of the grievances will this act touch? will what has been the effect of the concessions it lower rents or taxes? will it alter the of 1793? The catholics were relieved from state of property? will it teach the landlords every law affecting the mass of the people. Irish, or the peasants English? will it lower The profession of the law was opened, tithes? will it make the protestant clergy the magistracy, right of voting, freedom low, and raise the catholic priest? perhaps of corporations, trades, &c. What hapit may, and here is the difficulty. If this pened immediately? universal insurrection, operates lightly and gently, as possibly it devastation, and cruelty. May I venture may, it would not affect the mass of the to ask then, if it is probable that those who country; if it operates to affect the mass, returned treason for kindness, and murder it may operate to an extent that may be fatal for favour, upon points that directly affectto the British connexion. I have long en- ed them, are likely to become mild and tertained an opinion, that the discontents of grateful subjects for favours that affect them Ireland have arisen from other causes, and only distantly and collaterally? Upon this not from religious disabilities. Let us ex- point of the argument I beg to be disamine history; I shall not go into the distinctly understood. I do not bring this carded code, except to ask if so much was argument against the measure; if it is

Lord Harrowby could not agree that it was a fit moment to agitate the question, if their lordships were not prepared to think it a fit moment to concede what was asked.

connected with the state; with it the country has grown to greatness, and whatever has a tendency to weaken or destroy the establishment of the church, tends to the destruction of our monarchy, our liberty, and our political existence: secondly, that all the examples that have been produced of persons of different religions being allowed to serve the state in other countries, in no degree apply to this kingdom, as those countries are subject to arbitrary government; and I will venture to say, that no instance can be shewn of a free state, with a free parliament, in which persons professing a faith distinct from that establishment have obtained much weight and consequence. In discussing this question, it should be considered what is asked, how what is asked is to be attained, and what is to be substituted in the place of that you take away.What is asked is catholic emancipation, a term unfitting for this question, or for this assembly. Emancipate the catholics! Do The Earl of Westmorland.-My lords, they require the prætor's wand to be rehaving been one of his majesty's servants at leased from servitude, to hold property, to the time the union was framed, having been be protected in their persons and property? in some degree alluded to in the course of They are as free as any subjects in the the debate, and the importance of the mea- world. Do you talk of emancipating copysure, will be my excuse, however ably the holders, custom-house officers, excise ofsubject has been debated, for stating the ficers? The term, as it was first intended, grounds of the vote I shall give this night. applies to emancipate Ireland, that is, to seHaving, whilst I had the honour of serving parate Ireland from the government of, and his majesty in Ireland, twice given his ma- connexion with England. -But what is jesty's sanction to important favours to the asked? to abolish all distinctions between Roman catholics of that kingdom; having protestant and. papist, to place the papist been twice thanked by that body, and as-upon an equality with the protestant; whilst sured that the period of my administration any distinction remains, however high or would ever be remembered with gratitude special, the grievance remains. This is as by the catholics of Ireland, I trust, in giving it is asked, as it has been argued. For this my decided negative to the motion of the purpose you cannot move a step without the noble lord for a committee, it is unnecessary repeal of the test and corporation acts. In for me to relieve myself of any suspicions of the opinion of many, and to the extent to being actuated by superstition or bigotry, or which the arguments lead, you must also re-, a want of principles of liberality or tolera-peal the act of supremacy and uniformity, tion. To toleration in the exercise of his religion and enjoyment of property, every subject, except under imminent circumstances, has a right; beyond this the exercise of political power is a question not of right but of expediency; a right which every state has exercised, which every state will exercise, in defiance of all the new theories, in defiance of the doctrines of the rights of man, and the bleeding example of the French republic.-Before I enter into the discussion of this question, I will preface two observations: first, notwithstanding the new opinions, that in this country the ecclesiastical establishment is inseparably

the bill of rights, the act of settlement, the act of union with Scotland, and alter the king's coronation oath. There perhaps will arise a question between original compact, and the supremacy of parliament. Unquestionably our laws are not like those of the Medes and Fersians, that alter not; unquestionably no parliament has greater power: than the succeeding one; but to this only I argue this question, that, considering the solemnity attendant upon these laws, it is most unwise to raise doubts, and agitate the minds of men upon points which, even in, the opinion of many, strike at the settlement of, and right to the crown itself, without

Lethe lisque ambitus urbis

said upon it for the sake of tranquillity ? First, I look to the year 1782; then all the grievances of the nation were brought forth by the patriots of that period, various,simple repeal, independent parliament, free' trade; not a word of religious grievances. I proceed to 1789; grievances enough, wrongs enough of a noble marquis, wrongs that will never be forgiven by those who wished to risk the separation of the countries for the sake of party, nor forgetten by those who know that, by his ability and firmness, he preserved that kingdom to his sovereign, and the connexion between the countries. The parties in parliament, and the Whig Club, stating all the grievances; not a word of religious. grievances. Is it to be believed, that the great patriots of the day should not have mentioned religious grievances, if any such oppressed the people? I proceed farther to the year 1791; relaxation was given to the catholics in England; the Irish catholics naturally applied; what happened? the Irish house of commons would not grant the claims; no-they threw the petition off the table, twenty-three only objecting.→ Now I argue not the right or the wrong on this subject; but this I contend, that the Annua venali referens certamina campo. great patriots of that time would not have The priest at the head of his flock, leading rejected these petitions if the state of the them to every outrage, and religious bigotry laws had been an oppression to the coun→ carried to the utmost extent. The power try. When, then, was the discovery made? of the protestant landlords would have no why as soon as it was discovered that the effect against a religious combination.- government of England wished to do every Next, what are the causes of the discontents thing that was proper for the catholics, then în Ireland? high rents, heavy taxes, tithes, the grievance was made out, then the pathe property possessed by persons speaking triots began to cry out; and whatever was a different language, of different manners given, the determination was to ask for and habits from the peasantry, a double more, so the more we give, the more we clergy, the protestant clergy in affluence, shall be asked, till your lordships have nothe catholic in poverty. May I ask, which thing more to surrender. May it be asked of the grievances will this act touch? will what has been the effect of the concessions' it lower rents or taxes? will it alter the of 1793? The catholics were relieved from state of property? will it teach the landlords every law affecting the mass of the people. Irish, or the peasants English? will it lower The profession of the law was opened, tithes? will it make the protestant clergy the magistracy, right of voting, freedom low, and raise the catholic priest? perhaps of corporations, trades, &c. What hapit may, and here is the difficulty. If this pened immediately? universal insurrection, operates lightly and gently, as possibly it devastation, and cruelty. May I venture may, it would not affect the mass of the to ask then, if it is probable that those whơ country; if it operates to affect the mass, returned treason for kindness, and murder it may operate to an extent that may be fatal for favour, upon points that directly affectto the British connexion. I have long en-ed them, are likely to become mild and tertained an opinion, that the discontents of grateful subjects for favours that affect them Ireland have arisen from other causes, and only distantly and collaterally? Upon this not from religious disabilities. Let us ex-point of the argument I beg to be disamine history; I shall not go into the distinctly understood. I do not bring this carded code, except to ask if so much was argument against the measure; if it is

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