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all the ecclesiastical functions attached to and with it the freedom of religious opithat rank in the established church ; and nion. It becomes, therefore, the enlightened said it would have belonged to the character liberality of a Brit'sh senate, enjoy'n ; themand firmness of his noble and learned friend selves that freedom of opinion, to allow o the moment lie discovered those men as- all men the right of thinking as they plea: e suming the titular dignities of the established in matters of religion. How can a belief n episcopacy, or discharging their functions the doctrine of transubstantiation, or ai y in ecclesiastical polity, in open rebellion other speculative tenet in religious faith, iiagainst the laws, to have directly conveyed a fluence any man's conduct on political sul-formal complaint to his. Majesty, and to have jects? or the difference between a belief (f commenced legal proceedings against them. seven sacraments or two, render a man pi

The Duke of Norfolk.—My lords, not-culiarly fit or unfit for political confidence withstanding what has been alleged by noble or parliamentary representation, who has lords, that no pledge had been held out to the same education, is born and educated the catholics of Ireland at the period of the under the same government, and holds the union, to grant, as a condition of that mea- opinions in common with other subjects in sure, the final emancipation their petition this realm upon political topics ? or, where now claims, I have had very strong grounds is the ground of apprehension that men who to rely that at least such an understanding have received all their opinions under a Bri- . was forcibly entertained ; and I am there- tish constitution, will, when they are adføre for going into the committee, if it were mitted to participate in all the blessings of only to investigate the terms upon which that constitution, which they now anxiously the union was negotiated, in order to dis- pray, endeavour to excite anarchy for the cover the truth. The noble person, under purpose of subverting it, and of erecting in whose administration that measure was ne- its place a foreign tyranny, and restoring the gotiated (Marquis Cornwallis) las rendered despotism of the Romish church? If any many signal and important services to the thing could excite a disposition to anarchy, British empire ; and none more important it would be the perpetual refusal of admitthan the acquisition of that measure. I have ting the catholics to the blessings of a conbeen very credibly informed, that under that stitution, in. which, oice affiliated, every administration, assurances were held out to disposition to anarchy or even discontent the catholics of Ireland, from the highest must cease, and a real union of interests and authority, that their final claims should be attachments follow. A noble and learned ceded, as a condition for their acquiescence lord on a former night (lord Redesdale) has to that measure; for, otherwise, the union complained much of the influence of the could not have been carried. The refusal Roman catholic bishops, and their contunow will be to them, therefore, a bitter dis- macy in assuming episcopal functius; but appointment: they will conceive themselves in a religious point of view, I conceive them the dupes of false promise and deception, to be as much bishops, and to have as good a and their minds will feel all the irritation right to exercise episcopal functions for the natural to men of any sensibility under such spiritual direction of their owni seét, as ai y circumstances. A reverend prelate has talk- right reverend prelate on that bench. if ed of toleration in the mild and beneficent they abuse those functions by any tyrannical principle of the church of England. In the exertion of them, they are indeed highly respirit of that principle, therefore, I wish prehensible, and would really deserve puyour lordships to act on the present occa- nishment. But the noble and learned lord, sion, and not to persist in a principle of ex- at the same time that he complained of the cluding British subjects from their natural influence of the catholic hierarchy, the slow and political rights, merely on account of progress the reformation had made in Iretheir religious opinion. It is the church of land, and the unwillingness of protestants to Rome which withholds from its votaries the reside in some districts, owing to that inright of exercising their own judgment upon fuence, stated also another cause; to wliich religious topics, and to dictate to men's I am much more inclined to attribute those îninds the points of faith ; from which it circumstances, namely, the state of the proallows no man to hold a different opinion, testant churches in Ireland, of which the even in a single iota. But to the energies noble and learned lord had drawn so deploof our ancestors we owe that resistance to rable a picture. How is it reasonable to exsuch despotism over men's minds and con pect that protestants, having any sense of sciences which produced the reformation, their religion, would reside iä parishes, Vol. IV.

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above one thousand of which, and many of connected with the state ; with it the counthem good livings, the noble and learned try has grown 10 greatness, and whatever lord has stated there are in Ireland, where has a tendency to weaken or destroy the there is neither protestant church nor pro- establishment of the church, tends to the testant clergyman—and which parishes, as destruction of our monarchy, our liberty, he states, are anxiously sought for as sinecures and our political existence: secondly, that by protestant clergymen, whose duty it is to all the examples that have been produced of preach the Gospel, and to propagate the re- persons of different religions being allowed formed religion? or how can it be expected to serve the state in other countries, in no that Roman catholics are to be converted to degree apply to this kingdom, as those thật religion in those extensive quarters of countries are subject to arbitrary governthe country where it is never preached ? I ment: and I will venture to say, that no earnestly. hope that this subject will seriously instance can be shewn of a free state, with occupy the attention of parliament, and that a free parliament, in which persons professsome means will be contrived to remedy so ing a faith distinct from that establishment glaring an evil. But, my lords, feeling no have obtained much weight and consequence. apprehension of the slightest danger from In discussing this question, it should be granting the prayer of this petition, I shall considered what is asked, how what is asked vote for going into the committee.

is to be attained, and what is to be substi, Lord Harrowly could not agree that it tuted in the place of that you take away.was a fit moment to agitate the question, if | What is asked is catholic emancipation, a their lordships were not prepared to think term unfitting for this question, or for this it a fit moment to concede what was asked. assembly. Emancipate the catholics! Do

The Earl of Westmorland.-My lords, they require the prætor's wand to be rehaving been one of his majesty's servants at leased from servitude, to hold property, to. the time the union was framed, having been be protected in their persons and property? in some degree alluded to in the course of They are as free as any subjects in the the debate, and the importance of the mea- world. Do you talk of emancipating copysure, will be my excuse, however ably the holders, custom-house officers, excise ofsubject has 'been debated, for stating the ficers? The term, as it was first intended, grounds of the vote I shall give this night. applies to emancipate Ireland, that is, to seHaving, whilst I had the honour of serving parate Ireland from the government of, and his majesty in Ireland, twice given his ma- connexion with England. - But what is jesty's sanction to important favours to the asked ? to abolish all distinctions between Roman Catholics of that kingdom ; having protestant and papist, to place the papist been twice thanked by that body, and as- upon an equality with the protestant; whilst sured that the period of my administration any distinction remains, however high or would ever be remembered with gratitude special, the grievance remains. This is as by the catholics of Ireland, I trust, in giving it is asked, as it has been argued. For this my decided negative to the motion of the purpose you cannot move a step without the noble lord for a committee, it is unnecessary repeal of the test and corporation acts. In for me to relieve myself of any suspicions of the opinion of many, and to the extent to being actuated by superstition or bigotry, or which the arguments lead, you must also re-, a want of principles of liberality of tolera- peal the act of supremacy and uniformity, tion. To toleration in the exercise of his the bill of rights, the act of settlement, the religion and enjoyment of property, every act of union with Scotland, and alter the subject, except under imminent circum- king's coronation oath." There perhaps will stances, has a right; beyond this the exer- arise a question between original compact, cise of political power is a question not of and the supremacy of parliament. Unquesright but of expediency; a right which tionably our laws are not like those of the every state has exerçized, which every state Medes and Persians, that alter not; unwill exercise, in defiance of all the new questionably no parliament has greater power theories, in defiance of the doctrines of the than the succeeding one ; but to this only I rights of man, and the bleeding example of argue this question, that, considering the the French republic.--Before I enter into solemnity attendant upon these laws, it is the discussion of this question, I will pre- most unwise to raise doubts, and agitate the face two observations: first, notwithstanding minds of men upon points which, even in the new opinions, that in this country the the opinion of many, strike at the settlement ecclesiastical establishment is inseparably of, and right to the crown itself, without

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Lucan,

5.-- Lord Grenville's Motion for a Comate 9789] PARL. DEBATES, MÁY 13,- 1805 –on the Roman Catholic Petition.

[790 y of connected with the state ; with it the on urgent and pressing necessity, without being said upon it for the sake of tranquillity ?" ned try has grown to greatness

, and white convinced, first, that you will do no harm ; First, I look to the year 1782 ; then all the nere has a tendency to weaken or destroy o

next

, that you will do essential benefit ; and, grievances of the nation were brought forth' pro- establishment of the church

, tends to lastly, that you have a plan to establish, for by the patriots of that period, various as destrụction of our monarchy, our liki: that you mean to take away. Now, what simple repeal, independent parliament, free uires and our political

, existence : second, are the reasons assigned for this measure ? trade; not a word of religious grievances. s to all the examples that have been products --that it will tend to the settlement and I proceed to 1789; grievances enough, re- persons of different religions being alori tranquillity of Ireland. Serious as I consi- wrongs enough of a noble marquis, wrongs cted to serve the state in other countries, in e

der many other parts of the subject, if I that will never be forgiven by those who to degree apply to this kingdom, as the thought it would have that effect, I would wished to risk the separation of the counof countries are subject to arbitrary gee enter into a consideration of it: but it is tries for the sake of party, nor forgotI ment : and I will venture to say, link because I am of a diametrically opposite ten by those who know that, by his abisly instance can be shewn of a free state, Ti opinion ; because I ani convinced that, at lity and firmness, he preserved that kinghat a free parliament, in which personas port this period, it would plunge that country dom to his sovereign, and the connexion so ing a faith distinct from that establiskā into confusion, I am decidedly against it. between the countries. The parties in no have obtained much weight and concepten I should be glad to ask, if it is likely to tend parliament, and the Wlrig Club, stating om In discussing this question

, it should to the tranquillity of a country composed of all the grievances ; not a word of religious . ball considered what is asked, how what is

two`descriptions of inhabitants, the one pos- grievances. Is it to be believed, that is to be attainel

, and what is to be sissessed of the property and the magistracy, the great patriots of the day should not it tuted in the place of that you take 7

few in number, contending and protecting have mentioned religious grievances, if any if What is asked is catholic emancipe'i themselves against the more numerous class, such oppressed the people ? I proceed farnk term unfitting for this question, or has to open every situation as a scéne of contest? ther to the year 1791 ; relaxation was given Kassembly. Emancipate the cabi: I consider the first operation

of this measure to the catholics in England ; the Irish cais, they require the prætor's and to it to be

, to make this country a scene of con- tholics naturally applied ; what happened? at leased from servitude, to hold property fusion, corruption, and riot; not only for the Irishi house of commons would not grant en be protected in their persons and prevent parliament, but for magistracy, and situa- the claims ; no_they threw the petition off tions in all the towns; as described by the table, twenty-three only objecting:—.

Now I argue not the right or the wrong on
Lethe lisque ambitus urbis
Annua venali referens certamina campo.

this subject; but this I contend, that the

great patriots of that time would not have It applies to emancipate Ireland

, that the priest at the head of his flock, leading rejected these petitions if the state of the

to La connexion with England. --- But what carried to the utmost extent. The power try. When, then, was the discovery made? _$- upon an equality with the protestant; T Next, what are the causes of the discontents thing that was proper for the catholics, then 18 protestant and papist, to place the fore effect against a religious combination. government of England wished to do every

in Ireland ? high rents

, heavy taxes, tithes, the grievance was made out, then the paEle special, the grievance remains. They the property possessed by persons speaking triots began to cry out; and whatever was Ele purpose you cannot move a step witburt and habits from the peasantry, a double more, so the more we give, the more we

there

e catholic in poverty. May I ask, which thing more to surrender. May it be asked Or which the arguments lead, you must also of the grievances will this act touch ? will what has been the effect of the concessions 70 peal the act of supremacy and unifors it lower rents or taxes? will it alter the of 1793 ? The catholics were relieved from y act of union with Scotland, and alzar Irish, or the peasants English? will it lower The profession of the law was opened,

What hapOf and the supremacy of parliament ll it may, and here is the difficulty. If this pened immediately ? universal insurrection, - arise a question between oritul low, and raise the catholic priest? perhaps of corporations, trades, &c.

may, it would not affect the mass of the to ask then, if it is probable that those who

operates lightly and gently; as possibly it devastation, and cruelty. May I venture ze than the succeeding one; but to this dayIt may operate to an extent that may be fatal for favour, upon points that directly affect

tertained an opinion, that the discontents of grateful subjects for favours that affect them to the British connexion. I have long en- ed them, are likely to become mild and Ireland have arisen from other causes, and only distantly and collaterally? Upon this not from religious disabilities. Let iis ex- point of the argument I beg to be dis

amine history; I shall not go into the dis- | tinctly understood. I do not bring this the carded code, except to ask if so much was argiinient against the measure; if it is

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of They are as free as any subjects in E ea- world. Do you talk of emancipating at he holders, custom-house officers, excise he ficers? The term, as it was first interek,

on any distinction remains, howerer lite

ig it is asked, as it has been argued

. Foro

Ty repeal of the test and corporation at of the opinion of many, and to the estets

is the bill of rights, the act of settlement, to

7- | king's coronation oath. There perhapa si

country;

=htionably our laws are not like those a u Ce Medes and Persians, that alter no: B w questionably no parliament has greater pa of argue this question

, that considering CO solemnity attendant upon these laws, il 2- most unwise to raise doubts

, and grigen og minds of men upon points which mit ze the opinion of many, strike at the story y of, and right to

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above one thousand of which, and many of cc them good livings, the noble and learned tr lord has stated there are in Ireland, where he there is neither protestant church nor pro- es testant clergyman—and which parishes, as da he states, are anxiously sought for as sinecures ar by protestant clergymen, whose duty it is to al preach the Gospel, and to propagate the re- pe formed religion? or how can it be expected to that Roman catholics are to be converted to do that religion in those extensive quarters of C the country where it is never preached? In earnestly, hope that this subject will seriously in occupy the attention of parliament, and that a some means will be contrived to remedy so ir glaring an evil. But, my lords, feeling no h 'apprehension of the slightest danger from II granting the prayer of this petition, I shall ci vote for going into the committee.

is Lord Harrowly could uot agree that it ti was a fit moment to agitate the question, if V their lordships were not prepared to think to it a fit moment to concede what was asked.

The Earl of Westmorland.-My lords, t] having been one of his majesty's servants at le the time the union was framed, having been b in soine degree alluded to in the course of 1 the debate, and the importance of the measure, will be my excuse, however ably the h subject has been debated, for stating the ti grounds of the vote I shall give this night. a Having, whilst I had the honour of serving P his majesty in Ireland, twice given his majesty's sanction to important favours to the a Roman Catholics of that kingdom; having been twice thanked by that body, and assured that the period of my administration | a would ever be remembered with gratitudes by the catholics of Ireland, I trust, in giving i my decided negative to the motion of the noble lord for a committee, it is unnecessary for me to relieve myself of any suspicions of being actuated by superstition or bigotry, or a want of principles of liberality or toleration. To toleration in the exercise of his religion and enjoyinent of property, every subject, except under imminent circumstances, has a right; beyond this the exercise of political power is a question not of right but of expediency; a right which every state has exercised, which every state will exercise, in defiance of all the new theories, in defiance of the doctrines of the rights of man, and the bleeding example of the French republic.---Before I enter into the discussion of this question, I will preface two observations: first, notwithstanding the new opinions, that in this country the ecclesiastical. establishment is inseparably.

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urgent and pressing necessity, without being said upon it for the sake of tranquillity?" convinced, first, that you will do no harm ; First, I look to the year 1782 ; then all the next, that you will do essential benefit ; and, grievances of the nation were brought forth' lastly, that you have a plan to establish, for by the patriots of that period, various -that you mean to take away. Now, what simple repenl, independert parliament, free are the reasons assigned for this measure ? trade ; not a word of religious grievances. that it will tend to the settlement and I proceed to 1789; grievances enough, tranquillity of Ireland. Serious as I consi- wrongs enough of a noble marquis, wrongs der many other parts of the subject, if I that will never be forgiven by those who thought it would have that effect, I would wished to risk the separation of the counenter into a consideration of it: but it is tries for the sake of party, nor forgoibecause I am of a diametrically opposite ten by those who know that, by his abiopinion ; because I am convinced that, at lity and firmness, he preserved that kingthis period, it would plunge that country dom to his sovereign, and the connexion into confusion, I am decidedly against it. between the countries. The parties in I should be glad to ask, if it is likely to tend parliament, and the Whig Club, stating to the tranquillity of a country composed of all the grievances ; not a word of religious two descriptions of inhabitants, the one pos- grievances. Is it to be believed, that sessed of the property and the magistracy, the great patriots of the day should not few in number, contending and protecting have mentioned religious grievances, if any themselves against the more numerous class, such oppressed the people ? I proceed farto open every situation as a scene of contest? ther to the year 1791 ; relaxation was given I consider the first operation of this measure to the catholics in England; the Irish cato be, to make this country a scene of con- tholics naturally applied ; what happened? fusion, corruption, and riot; not only for the Irish house of commons would not grant parliament, but for magistracy, and situa- the claims ; no—they threw the petition off tions in all the towns, as described by the table, twenty-three only objecting: Lucan,

Now I argue not the right or the wrong on Lethe lisque ambitus urbis

this subject; but this I contend, that the Annua venali referens certamina campo. great patriots of that time would not have The priest at the head of his flock, leading rejected these petitions if the state of the them to every outrage, and religious bigotry laws had been an oppression to the councarried to the utmost extent. The power try. When, then, was the discovery made? of the protestant landlords would have no why as soon as it was discovered that the effect against a religious combination.-government of England wished to do every Next, what are the causes of the discontents thing that was proper for the catholics, then in Ireland ? high rents, heavy taxes, tithes, the grievance was made out, then the pathe property possessed by persons speaking triots began to cry out; and whatever was a different language, of different manners given, the determination was to ask for and habits from the peasantry, a double more, so the more we give, the more we clergy, the protestant clergy in affluence, shall be asked, till your lordships have nothe catholic in poverty. May I ask, which thing more to surrender. May it be asked of the grievances will this act touch? will what has been the effect of the concessions it lower rents or taxes ? will it alter the of 1793 ? The catholics were relieved from state of property? will it teach the landlords every law affecting the mass of the people. Irish, or the peasants English? will it lower The profession of the law was opened, tithes ? will it make the protestant clergy the magistracy, right of voting, freedom low, and raise the catholic priest? perhaps of corporations, trades, &c. What hapit may, and here is the difficulty. If this pened immediately? universal insurrection, operates lightly and gently, as possibly it devastation, and cruelty. May I venture may, it would not affect the mass of the to ask then, if it is probable that those who country; if it operates to affect the mass, returned treason for kindness, and murder it may operate to an extent that may be fatal for favour, upon points that directly affectto the British connexion. I have long en-ed them, are likely to become mild and tertained an opinion, that the discontents of grateful subjects for favours that affect them Ireland have arisen from other causes, and only distantly and collaterally ? Upon this not from religious disabilities. Let us ex- point of the argument I beg to be disamine history; I shall not go into the distinctly understood. I do not bring this carded code, except to ask if so much was argument against the measure ; if it is

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