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the first victim of a rebellion, in a great degree | pect that such aid was reserved for condi, catholic. The noble lord stated these circun- tional compensation. In the beginning of stances, as well to develope the real state of the 1786, Dr. Butler, the titular archbishop of catholic body, and the origination of those in- Cashel, a man of considerable talents and dulgences which have since so rapidly suc- high family connexion, and then considered ceeded each other, as to mark the objects the great organ of the catholic cause, adand designs which have actuated the move- dressed a remonstrance to government, upon ments of the different members of that body. the disappointment felt by the catholics at It was a great error to suppose that the idea the lapse of a whole session of parliament, of complete catholic emancipation from all without any mark of favour to them. Long restrictions was only hinted for the first time sufferings, merits, and expectations were in 1788 or 1789. The noble lord (Gren- urged, and much mortification and disconville) who brought forward this petition, tent were expressed, especially as parliahad appealed to the experience of those who ment was not engaged in the consideration had resided, in official situations, in Ireland, of any foreign war, or other business of difto speak to the catholic character and con- ficulty or embarrassment; and after expaduct. Other noble lords had ably and ho- tiating much on their zeal in the volunteer nourably done so; and he would now add cause, and their uniformly inoffensive and such testimony as occurred to his own ex- loyal conduct, the remonstrance concluded perience.—The great change effected in the by saying, they would be satisfied for the political situation of Ireland in 1752 con- present with some introductory privileges, tinued unfortunately to have a lasting effect such as the professions and honours of the on the catholics of all descriptions, ever bar and army, as preludes to the attainment afterward. From these might be dated the of every thing else. The answer to this resystematic restlessness, disorder, nay, abso- 'monstrance expressed surprise at the matter, lute disloyalty, in a large portion of the manner, and time of it; and at the same lower orders, and the growing eagerness in time reminded Dr. Butler, and through him, the higher classes for place and power. Both his community of the internal disorders and adopted measures but ill chosen for success; commotions then existing, excited by and but they decidedly marked the fast hold confined to catholics, and most prevalent those objects had taken on the catholic mind. where catholic influence was the most pow. They formed great expectation of advantage erful. It therefore denied the propriety of from the new-born independency of Ireland any remonstrance, expectation, or requisiupon England; but shortly after, those hopes tion for favours, while there was no mark were changed to doubt, and then to despair; of auxiliary exertion from the higher cathomurmurs and complaints ensued at their lies to support the tranquillity and good order meetings, and demagogues, and priests chosen disturbed lately by their own community. from the lowest orders, educated abroad, Several conferences followed, which ended and fraught with seditious principles, la- in an offer on the part of government to boured to work up the minds of the people. submit the claims of the catholics to parliaThey were taught to rely for every thing on ment; but not without conditional profesthe superiority of their numbers, and a se- sions of active gratitude. The hazard of paration from England. Relief from tithes such a reference

was thought much greater and rents, and gain of property and provision than the probability of its success: but there without labour, were all to arise from this was an end, for the time, to petition, and separation; and it soon became a cant word, remonstrance, and, soon afterwards, to the and the bond of a dangerous union. White appearance of open and predatory disaffecBoys, and other predatory associations arose, tion. This was in the administration of the which, though soon suppressed by the vi- Duke of Rutland; and the noble lord by ng gour of government, still left behind them means meant to charge any temptation or those germs of their principles, that never feeling of disloyalty in the principal cathosince have been quite extinguished. The lics, but, on the contrary, to acknowledge weight and influence of their higher orders, and vindicate their loyal principles, and the and particularly of their clergy, were con- many proofs of which they had shewn. But siderably diminished; and have never since he must observe, that their unchangeable been regained. Their lassitude and tardiness views to their great object of final emancia in aiding to suppress the disorders alluded pation from all restrictions, and even under to, were observable to government; and their partial and temporary indulgences from there appeared but too much cause to sus time to time, was an obvious check upon

the voluntary and disinterested vigour of maining restlessness and complaint. That any zealous co-operation with government. noble lord has not surely well reflected upon The truth then seems to be, that, allowing the more than possible danger to arise from them to be good and loyal subjects in their admission of this argument as a ground for present situation, they have an insatiable concession. What is to be a limit or rethirst for power; and, how that might straint upon this source of disturbance and change their nature, there's the question, risk to our own establishment ? Incapacities

" Grant power,

are not unknown to protestants, and cannot “ And then I grant we put a sting into them be wholly withdrawn from catholics without

“ That at their will thry may do danger with.” I cannot therefore, said the noble lord, help inclined to think, that sufficient reflection

surrender of even equality. But I am really doubting at least, whether I should have

hus not been bestowed on the value of what been disposed, under such impression of still

is now in possession or enjoyed by conincreasing claims upon every accession of


They are not friends to the cafavour, to have gone so far in removal of all disabilities as was done in 1793, espe

tholics, who speak of their being driven to cially in the instance of the elective franchise. despair, and of their groaning under long It could not well be doubted by any man, creates inore sense of suffering than does

and endless oppression. Imagination often who had a reasonable knowledge of human nature, and was aware of the position and reality of cause; and we are frequently led views of this particular sect, that the con

to suppose ourselves objects of pity or discession here stated would be chiefly valued regard by the mistaken or officious suggesas a step to the right of representation. And tions of pretended sympathy. If we for a as a step to the right of representation. And moment appreciate the real case as it is, and who can pretend to be answerable for restrictive moderation even there ? Tempta. find that no penalties or restrictions remain

as it is pretended it ought to be, we shall tion, &c. may be incited by the impulse of seeming means and opportunity, and then, people, and that not the grant of all which

which can be felt by the great mass of that in course, a dormant spirit of uneasy am

is required, would add a grain to their real bition might be roused into dangerous ac

wants or wishes; and in respect of the few tion.


who might be objects of supposed benefit by " And if the quarrel will bear no colour for the the furiher indulgences, they are excluded things they are,

only from certain situations by necessary " Fashion it thus ; that what they are, aug. regard for our constitutional establishment,

mented, " May run to these andı hese extremities, &c.&c." and from which, in fact, they exclude them

selves by refusal to aspire to them upon equal I will not apprehend a mistaken suspicion, conditions with their protestant fellow subfrom such allusions, that I would entertainjects. In justice to the liberality of the lean unfriendly, much less an illiberal esti- gislature, let us estimate the value of the mation of the catholic character, or would last concession, that of the elective franbe found in adverse attack upon their com- chise! I cannot conceive that a more powerforts and immunities. If the limit is drawn, ful incentive to habits of industry, and therewhere it is, I would readily agree in the by to acquisition of property, could have opinion of the noble secretary of state (lord been conferred; and it must be evident, Hawkesbury) that we should regard without that the competition was thus made more regret the concessions already made; and I than equal in favour of the catholics. It would cordially rejoice in being able to see ought also to be observed that a protestant a period of safe allowance for the grant of legislature, part of it against its own inyet more. If I was to speak of individuals, mediate interests and convenience, made there are many, for whom personal respect this in sone degree at least, a sacrifice of would lead me to desire the fullest gratifica- the comparative superiority and even indetion of their wishes. But I contine not my pendence of the protestarts, by the necesgood thoughts within such a narrow circle : sity imposed upon future candidates for parto all who by no prohibited excess or devia- liament to solicit the favour of even the tion from their loyalty in thought or deed lower orders of the catholic freeholders. At are justly entitled to the rank of fellow-sub- all events, the token of wish for harmony jects, I would studiously endeavour to mark and good fellowship was manifested beyond an attentive consideration and concern.-A a doubt. It is not imputable to the pronoble lord (Spencer) has said, that whilst testant legislature in depreciation of the real any isicapacities remain, there will be re- boon, that all the beneiit to vluch it. was

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unquestionably conducive, was not derived cessity of a 'successful call for the resource from it by the objects of its participation.- of an union.-The confusion and uncertainLong as there shall exist the uncontrouled ty, the speculations and excesses, in short, dominion of factious demagogues of what the total derangement (I will not use the ever class, but especially that of the monkish word disorganization) consequent upon

the priesthood over the minds of these wretched one could not be, after such a trial, so efpeople, they will not be suffered to exert fectually composed and harmonized by any their resources with uniform and steady at- other intervention than that of the other. tention to any pursuit best calculated for It is certainly to be acknowledged, that all their own advantage, and for the peace and the good expected has not yet been exprosperity of the country. And here we perienced from this measure, especially in may reflect perhaps with regret upon the its effect upon the quiet and industrious dechange (to which I before alluded) in the meanour of the lower catholics. The peace infinence of the higher over the lower orders which ensued was of too short a duration of the catholic community, which not only wholly to erase all idle speculation, and to weakens the constant channel of communi- fix a well regulated content; and the recation with government, but disables those, commencement of hostilities may have fawho are in reality the most, if not the orily cilitated again the approaches of mischievouş petitioners immediately interested on this instigators, to revive the decaying embers of occasion, from strengthening their preten- that miserable hope of a fallacious good, in sions by the pledge of sure responsibility for separation from England by the help of the political conduct of the whole body.- foreign aid and maintenance. ---Still, howI will not attempt to discuss the question of ever, I venture to encourage the confident present relation in point of authority or expectation, that frain the union will ul. subordination between the several branches timately arise a state of order and industrious of this catholic community in abstract mat- exertion, which will produce more real and ters of religion. This has been largely con- lasting welfare to this people, than all the sidered by other roble lords, with suficient imaginary promises of every good from the examination of the imperium in imperio, wildest emancipation. Neither time then, the catholic hierarchy: I would simply or circumstances, are now favourable to remark, that here assuredly is an instance the entertainment of this petition. But it of connivance beyond the usual cases of to- has been exclaimed, what, then! is all hope Ieration; and I had ventured to regard it as of more fortunate conjuncture, and of more an ever střiking proof, adnitted, by the ca- | auspicious situations of affairs to be exti!tholics, of the liberal forbearance of the guished, and this oppressed people to be protestant establishment. What may be driven to comfortless despair ? -I would the degree of danger which, in case of an answer with conscientious sincerity, that allowance of catholic power, may be in- true belief, indeed, would induce me to .curred from temptation and rescurces in this place the measure of satisfaction best cal. quarter, also to assume a more independent culated for their real happiness in a supposed condition and unfettered acknowledgment, extinction of all 'views beyond the present is a subject worthy of very serious reflection. ample means of comfort and prosperity, I will confess that I had persuaded myself | Let them be fairly estimated, clierished, and of a remedy to all causes of uneasiness and enjoyed; they will produce a harvest of alarm in the last great measure of an union blessings. I dare not at present presume to of the kingdoms; I did expect from its ac- dream of more, which may be good for complishment the reinoval of those banesul them, or safe for us : but God forbid that hopes of separation, which had sprung from we should venture to circumscribe the ways the independence, and were, perhaps, in of his Divine Providence," which may rereality more adverse to the happiness and move obstacles at present too strong for our welfare of those who entertained them, attempt to clear away or pass by. There than essentially dangerous to those against may (and I wish there may be future reawhom they prevailed in whatever light, sons, however unexpected now, to prove therefore, of unfayourable opinion, for the the security with which the protestants may sake of all parties, I had from reflection and grant the competency of the catholics to be experience regarded the measure and the entrusted with the fullest participation of effect of independence, I certainly liave al rights and privileges: they may, by habits tered that opinion in considering it as itself of industry, good order, harmonious conthe great demonstrative cause by evident ne- cord, social intercourse, mutụal good-with

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and reciprocal good offices, and by zealous in Ireland, and other concurrent testimonies. patriotism and loyalty (all indeed having The reason alleged by the catholic clergy tendency to their own immediate benefit, for not signing the present petition, and a and therefore the most gratifying to the li- correct and rational reason it is, is, that beral spirit of the legislature) give encou-it prays merely for the enjo;ment of civil ragement for unrestricted confidence. They rights. Those, therefore, who are abusing may find cause unequivocally to withdraw and vilifying this respectable body are not that barrier (insuperable, whilst it remains judging from facts, nor can they be wellin force) of divided allegiance, the obligation wishers to the peace and prosperity of Ireto papal supremacy, which a noble lord has land.--My lords; a noble lord has made a most forcibly and most eloquently demon- distinction between the oath of the catholics strated to render vain all pretensions to equal of Ireland and the oath of the catholics of rights by the want of equal conditions. I England. He says the difference is, that will not shut out the wish or the hope for the catholics of Ireland are not willing to such alteration of circumstances; but with take the same oath as the catholics of Enour limited power of searching into future gland, and he argues as if the catholics of chance and change, we can, I think, retain England were willing to give some pledge this possible expectation, as the only pre- of their loyalty which the catholics of Irevention to a positive declaration, that here, land were not willing to take. My lords, I even here; must Be all and the End maintain that the oath is equally binding on all. We are, I am afraid, yet only on our the catholic of Ireland as it is on the caown necessary defence. We are obliged in tholic of England.— I shall now make a few conscience, honour, and duty to ourselves, short observations on what fell from a noble and to our constitution in church and state, and learned lord (Redesdale) who spoke at to throw our shield of self-preservation be considerable length the other evening. The fore us, and on it to exhibit the warning noble and learned lord told you, that there motto of “ ne plus ultra."

was in the catholic church of Ireland an The Earl of Longford said a few words establishment of bishops. This, my lords, in favour of the motion ; after which, is no information to any person who knows

Lord Grenville rose to reply, and spoke that the church of Ireland is episcopal, and in substance as follows: My lords ; nothing that if you put down Roman catholic bio but the duty I owe to the question and to shops, you put down the religion itself.-myself, would have induced me to trou- But the noble and learned lord asserts, “ that ble your lordships with any observations at they consider themselves as the only lawful this late hour. In the course of what has successors of the ancient clergy of Ireland, fallen from noble lords during this debate, assuming all the powers, and claiming all it has been thrown out by way of reproach, the revenues, of that clergy, treating the that to this petition is affixed none of the clergy of the reformed religion as usurpers; names of the catholic clergy of Ireland, and refusing obedience to all laws framed to this most unjust and most unwarrantable in- curb the encroachments of the papacy on ference has been drawn, that because they the sovereign power, and denying to the lehave not put their names to the petition, gislature of the country all power over the therefore they are not willing to subscribe ranks, dignities, and authorities, and even to the sentiments of loyalty and attachment the revenues of the church." My lords, I expressed in the petition. Now, my lords, entreat your lordships to go into this comI assert it again and again, and am willing mittee to see whether this be true. If their to lose all consideration with your lordships own declaration is true, and that it is so I if I do not prove, that the contrary is the most firmly believe, they declare quite the fact; if I do not prove, that they have signed contrary. I hope on a point of so much imthe declaration themselves, and as an hierar- portance, your lordships will afto chy have recommended it to others. I have tioners some opportunity of proof. The next the means of proving before a committee of point, as to excommunication : the noble your lordships, if you will let me go into and learned lord says, “ the authority of the that committee, that the catholic clergy of Roman catholic clergy over their flock is . Ireland are not only willing, but anxious enforced by the most dreadful of all means; and desirous to take the oaths prescribed by by the power of excommunication, a power law, and that they exert themselves to per- very different from that possessed by the esguade others to take them. This I can tablished church." I appeal to the right reprove by certificates from courts of justice verend bench opposite, whether it be pose


the peti

sible that any church can subsist, unless it that if the claims of this petition are granted possess the power of shutting those out of something further must also be done. I was it who break the rules of the church, toldon a former night, that I had left something and act contrary to them. The noble unexplained; that there was something more and learned Jord has also stigmatized the fio- in my mind than what is expressed in the man catholic clergy of Ireland, “ as an un- prayer of the petition. My lords, there is authorised hierarchy, lifting themselves up something more in my mind. I was not so in defiance of the law, and of all constitu- weak as to suppose, that the placing a few tional authority." He says, that “ reigning persons in offices would have the effect of uncontroled, their ecclesiastical courts govern calming the minds of the people of Ireland. the whole people; that they dissolve mar- I well know that much must be done ; and riages for causes not allowed by law-pro- my opinion is, that many provisions and recontract consanguinity, or affinity, in de- gulations must necessarily accompany the grees beyond those prescribed by the legisla- granting the prayer of your petitioners. But, ture; that they license marriages within I know of no manner in which it can be those degrees; that the evidence of marr age done so effectually, as by making this comis wholly in their power; and that the legi- mittee the ground work of those proceedings. timacy of children, and the succession to One noble lord told us, that there had been property, is under their control.” My lords, no county meetings, nothing to convince us let the noble and learned lord bring forth his that the measure proposed is loudly called by proofs. If he can produce them, sure I am, the majority of the people. Surely, my that every person who hears me will cor- lords, it is much to the credit of the petitiondially and anxiously join with him in finding ers, that there has been no clamour on this the remedy. And if, in the course of your occasion. The pride of the petitioners has enquiry, you should discover four or five ig- been, that they have exerted themselves to norant parish priests who have exceeded the prevent that clamour, and to bring their pelimits of their duty, I will say then also, ap- tition before your lordships in that decentand ply the remedy, go into the committee, and respectful manner, which I conceive they do not impute that to a whole body of men, have done. Another objection, is, that it which proceeds only from a few ignorant in- has been brought forward in a time of war. dividuals. My lords, that such expressions My lords, if there be danger, let us look that should go forth to the world as proceeding danger in the face. If this measure is ultifrom such a quarter is, in my mind, the mately right to be adopted, what time can greatest evil that can possibly arise from the be more proper than the present moment, present discussion. I will venture to say, when we are encompassed by dangers on that if you will turn your attention to the every side, and when you are obliged to means of rendering the condition of Ireland give up a part of your militia for the sake of more conducive to the happiness of the peo- increasing your disposeable force ? I, thereple, instead of vilifying and degrading the fore, call upon your lordships to lay aside all hierarchy, you must begin by respecting that vain pretence, and if it be a good thing to do, hierarchy, and to make that useful and re-do it in that moment when, of all others, it spectable class of men respected by those will be most serviceable to the country, and over whom they are to exercise their autho- most welcome to your petitioners. To those rity, you must secure to it an influence over who think that the measure is som radically those whom by law you cannot change, but bad, that it never can be adopted, I would to whom they will look, as their spiritual di- just say a few words. They talk of the bill rectors. Those who endeavour to effect this of rights, the reformation, the title of the are practically the greatest benefactors to the crown, and all that. But does any man empire, of which Ireland now forms so es- living believe, that if we were to adopt the sential a part.—To the rest of the noble and proposal of suffering Irish catholics to sit in Jearned lord's speech, I must decline offering parliament, it would in any shape whatever any reply. Sorry I am to have heard that tend to destroy the reformed religion of this speech in this house, but more sorry, that it country ? Surely, there must be great want should go out to the world, that a person of argument, when you are obliged to resort holding such opinions still continues in a si- to such sophisms as this against the proposed tuation of such great importance to the peace measure ! No blessing can light upon counand tranquillity of the united empire !

—The sels conducted upon such principles.- Now, noble and learned lord has also said, and in my lords, I come to the question, is it safe which sentiment I perfectly agree with him, to give the catholics that which they ask?

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