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The Chancellor of the Exchequer spoke to what disposable force they had possessed order, and thought his lordship ought not with what confidence could they place in to allude to any thing which he, in the way their hands the addition now called for of private communication, and to facilitate The right hon. gent. had stated the diffi the removal of doubts and difficulties, had culty of getting officers.
Did not this pro mentioned. He would leave, he said, to ceed from the fault of government, which
, the noble lord himself to determine as to had broken faith with the Militia, and had the propriety of doing so, but he must ap- placed them in their present degraded situpeal to the Speaker for the order of the ation? Were not this the case, abundance thing.
of gentlemen would be found ready to Earl Temple said, the communication was come forward and officer the different reginot confidential, and he thought he might ments: but the deceptions practised upon therefore mention it.
them prevented it. At one time the fear The Speuker informed him, that in doing of invasion was raised, at another the neso he was debating a different question, and cessity of foreign service. When the right was, of course, out of order.
hon. gent. should submit his new plan for Earl Temple resumed. He conceived the the further degradation of the militia, he proposition of the right hon. gent, which he should, both from his feelings and every had alluded to, was made at the time of the other consideration of the question, give it expedition to Holland. But the proposition, his hearty opposition. It was held out that as it was now put in practice by the right these men were to be procured for the rebon. gent. was not only to encourage volun- gular service on cheap terms; but indiviteering from the Militia into the line, but to duals had paid the expence; and after all, hire and suborn recruiting serjeants, first to with bounty, and the gratifications of the promote debauchery and insubordination in ale-houses, he really believed that the cost the regiments, and then to crimp a certain of a recruit would amount to more for the number of men, as best suited their purpose, regular army, than by the ordinary mode of leaving the remainder to the care of their recruiting that part of the public force. officers, who would have the satisfaction of Colonel Calcraft said he should reserve seeing returned them, out of half the num- the fuller delivery of his sentiments till a ber of their regiment, 150 of the mere re- future occasion presented itself. He wished, fuse! The noble lord concluded his speech however, to know, whether the men were by recapitulating his former arguments, and to be enlisted for life, and for unlimitect expressing his firin and decided opposition service. He was likewise not perfectly clear to the present ineasure.
in his understanding of what fell from the Lord Stanley expressed his disapprobation chancellor of the exchequer, respecting of the bill, on account of its injustice in so the number of four-fifths of the recruits many different points; it was subversive of being made up from the Militia regiments. the constitution of the Militia regiments, Sir James Pulteney thought it could hardly and directly contradictory to the many be necessary for any person to ask for any pledges that had been given to the house, particular reasons being given for the proparticularly by the riglat hon. gent. himself. posed measure, which was merely a propor He had given this pledge, as many would sition, that, if carried into effect, went to recollect, during a debate in 1799, and again make the men more useful to the country more recently on the Defence act. From than their present mode of service could several important considerations, he must possibly render them. Under the various give his decided negative to the bill. limitations and restrictions that were pro
The Marquis of Douglas expressed his posed, he could not perceive that any injury disapprobaticn of the plan proposed, which would be sustained by the militia service in he considered as tending materially to hurt general. On the contrary, he was led to the militia service, and likewise to retard think, that though the battalions were less in the recruiting for the line. That an ac- number, they would, from the provisions of cession to our disposable force was extreme- this measure, be made more effeclual in ly desirous, he thought no person would be point of strength, and, consequently, more found to deny, considering that question useful. A great part of the safety of the abstractedly. But the present proposition country, he considered to have been owing. ought to be viewed under the particular to the steps taken with respect to the milicircumstances that attended it. If the house tia, in the year 1799, during the last war. called to mind the use made by ministers of Upon the whole yiew of the subject, he was
convinced that the plan proposed deserved | gent, when he brought in his Defence bill? to be supported.
What was become of the abusive epithets Mr. Bastard, took nolice of the three rea- he had used of “ imbecile and incapable," sons alledged for the introduction of this which he applied for the purpose of driving extraordinary measure; namely, the want out the late administration, by far the most of men for the regular army; the scarcity constitutional and least, presuming he had of officers for the Militia, and the stated ar- ever seen? What was become of that fadour of the men belonging to the Militia tomous bill which had put the right hon. gent. volunteer for the regular army. Now, as in his present place, and which was immeto the Ist, he conceived it to proceed from diately to gain an army to the country? It the inefficiency of the measure adopted at had effected nothing, and he was compelled the instance of the present ministers, for the to resort to the militia, and to abolish his augmentation of our regular army; the 2nd, own act. As to the militia, if they were to he thought a very natural result of that sys- be reduced as not wanting, they ought to be tem of tampering with the Militia, which discharged. He cautioned the house not had obtained of late years, particularly under to favour too much such measures as this. the auspices of the right hon. mover of the He looked on the militia as the best and proposition before the house. As to the 3d most constitutional defence the country allegation, that many of the Militia were could have, and as the best check against ready to volunteer into the line; the man- any base attempt that might ever be made ner which seemed to have been taken to by an army of mercenaries against the liberascertain, or rather to excite that disposition, ties of a country, had been already stated, and animadverted Mr. Fuller was surprised that any gentleupon with proper severity by a noble lord man could attempt to thwart the wishes of (Temple.) To what that noble lord had those brave men belonging to the Militia, stated" he should only say, that it appeared who manifested a disposition to serve their to him absolutely nothing less than an'en country more effectually, by volunteering deavour to excite a spirit of mutiny among for the regular army.. To give full effect the militia, to render them discontentd with to such a disposition was the object of this the force in which they were engaged and bill, and therefore he would support it. to which they were sworn--Flectere si nequeo With respect to the Militia system itself, he superos dcherontu motebo.- Ministers seem- thought it to have much degenerated from ed resolved to stop at no expedients, to re- the principle of its original establishment, spect no boundary however venerable, no and he on that account approved of its reinstitution however sacred, to attain an ob- duction. He considered ridiculous the lanject which they promised when they dis. guage used with regard to the dangers of placed their predecessors, to accomplish our situation. With such a force as we without delay or difficulty. The hon. gent. had, he contended that we had nothing to complimented the late economical and con- fear. With 500,000 men in arins, and a stitutional ministry, as he described them, high-spirited people, there was only only for declining to lay a sacrilegious hand on one thing wanted, and that was, that the
a the militia, and declared that he should ra- hon. gent, on the other side (Mr.Fox) should ther see the militia system dissolved allo- take his seat with the right hon. proposer
of gether than thus mutilated and frittered this motion, to enable us to bid defiance to, away. He conjured the house not to give and to overwhelm all the dangers that meway to such bills as the right hon. gent. naced us. Those two great men united, we who proposed this motion was in the habit should soon extinguish the power that threatof bringing forward. He said, the militia ened io annoy us; we should soon destroy the. officers considered this as a measure of de- vessels on the other side of the water; we basement, and he agreed with the noble should speedily clip the wings of the bantain lord who spoke last, that the difficulty of Emperor. procuring militia officers was owing to the The Chancellor of the Exchequer rose in degrading situation they had been placed reply, and spoke as follows.- I must beg in, of serving as mere drill-serjeants, to raise leave, sir, to make a few observations upon men as milita; and the moment they bc- what has fallen from some of the hon. gent. came disciplined by their labour and atten- opposite. And first, in answer to the
ques tion, they were seduced away, and enlisted tion which has been put to me by an hon. into the army. Where were all the magni- colonel, I wish it to be understood, that I ficent promises made by the right hon. mean it should be left absolutely to the com.
manding officer, in the first instance, to se known ; they were fully explained at the lect any man whom he wishes to part with, time, and it was an extraordinary case, that and, that the whole management, conduct, could not effect or change the general sysand regulation of the business should be en- tem of the Militia. So far as to any positirely at his discretion, without any inter- tive pledge with which I am charged; but ference or controul, provided that the men, a voble marquis (of Douglas) has discovered so selected and willing to enlist for regular a singular sort of constructive pledge which service, shall be of a certain size, and under he thinks may answer the same purpose. a certain age; and if you shall find men of Alluding to the bill for reducing the militia, that description, equal to four-fifths of the he reminds me of having said, at the time proposed number, then no farther step shall it was under discussion, that good faith ought he taken, and such regiment shall be liable to be kept with the militia. The question to no further call. This is the first plan of recruiting was not then in view, nor unwhich I propose; but if it should not be der consideration, so that I do not see how adopted, then I mean in the second case my observation can be brought to bear that the commanding officer shall have it in upon the present question. I said then, his power to set aside one half of his regi- that its reduction, to a certain number, ment, and that the recruiting for general would be the best security, that when so service shall only be made from the remain-reduced it would never be broken in upon ing half. Now, this one half, so selected, again. These are the only pledges I ever and consisting, as we may presume, of the gave. What other pledges the noble lords prime men, will, after the recruiting shall allude to, I know not. I only know what have taken place, he equal to two-thirds of passed within my own mind, and what I the regiment so reduced. Each regiment have said upon the subject. As to the charge will, consequently, have a greater propor- of sending officers to recruit for the line in tion of prime men, than it possesses at pre- the neighbourhood of places where militia sent; and, though it will be weaker in point are quartered, it will be indeed limiting the of numbers, it will be stronger in prime scene of recruiting for the line to a narrow men, in relation to its amount. Now, sir, compass, if every such place must be avoidas to the charge made by a noble earl (Tem- ed. "The officer, whose letter has been ple) against this measure, as involving the read, clearly did not conceive, from its conforfeiture of a pledge, I might say, as a di- tents, that he was acting wrong by recruitrect and general answer, that I do not know ing in the neighbourhood of a Militia regiany one who can give a pledge to tie up ment. Is no officer to go into the vicinity parliament from any course which it may of a corps of Militia for the purpose of reihink proper to pursue. But as a man may cruiting? Where then is he to be sent? If a no doubt tie himself up by a pledge, and a serjeant be sent out for the purpose of recharge to that effect has been made against cruiting, he will go where he thinks he has me, I say distinctly that I know nothing of the best chance of success. If he be a good any such pledge. I never gave any pledge and active person for the purpose, he will of the kind. I am not conscious of any make a point of doing so, nor is government time or place, when or where I ever gave a answerable for the irregularities which he pledge to that effect. I remember, indeed, may possibly commit. Government will that upon the occasion alluded to by a noble guard, as well as they can, against irregulalord this night (Temple) that noble lord rities, and it is their duty to provide for the and his friends loudly condemned the con- carrying on of the recruiting service, in the verting of the militia establishment into a way that shall produce the least trouble, inmode of recruiting for the line; and I then jury, or inconvenience to the individual, or declared that it was not my intention. Now, to any other branch of the public service; if the noble lord and his friends means to some irregularities will take place, which exaggerate a conversation of that kind, and government cannot prevent. Now, sir, as used upon that occasion, into a direct and to another point, I perceive an attempt positive pledge, I admit it. I certainly de- made to inculcate an idea, that by this. nied upon that occasion that I meant to measure I am heaping a burthen upon the make the Militia a mere machine for recruit- landed interest, and that it is a cruel and ing the army. I denied it then, and I deny unjust tax upon the land. The land, they it now, but I never gave any other pledge say, has already paid for the men's limited upon the subject. The circumstances under service in the militia, and, therefore, it is which a recruiting then took place are well cruel and unjust to the landed interest, that this man should be encouraged to extend | Scotch Appeal, Rochied r. Kinloch, bart. his service more effectually, and that with viz. Mr. Erskine, in continuation, on beout any additional expence to the landed half of the Appellant; and Mr. Clark, in interest. A more singular and extraordinary part, on the side of the Respondent. The argument than this I never heard. If I pro- | farther hearing was deferred till to-morrow. posed to take away a man from the militia, - The hearing of counsel was temporarily and that another should be provided to adjourned, for the purpose of the Royal supply his place, there would then be some Assent being given by Commission to the consistency in the reasoning. I remember Marine Mutiny Bill, to lor:) John Thynne's only one argument more that has been uset, Indemnity, and to six Naturalisation Bills. and requires an answer. The noble lord The lords Commissioners were, the Lord (Temple) has said, that at the time we are Chancellor, Lord Hawkesbury, and Lord bringing forward this measure, we have also Walsingham.-The bills upon the table suspended courts martial, and that for the were forwarded in their respective stages. purpose of introducing insubordination into Among these, the Exchequer Bills bill; the the Militia, and destroying its discipline, to British Sugar Duties Drawback, the Spirits facilitate the operation of the plan which I Warehousing, and the following Irish Fi. have proposed. Now, what is the actual nance bills, the Stamp Dutics, Postage state of the case? Some amendments were Rates, Excise Duties, Malt Tax, Custom found necessary in the Mutiny bill, and we Duties Drawback, and the Irish Expiring therefore suspended the proceedings of Law bills, were severally read a second courts martial during the progress of the time.-Mr. Alexander brought up from the bill, in order that the parties to be tried commons the Irish Sugar Bounty bills, which should have the benefit of the amended act. together with a few Private bills, presented But the bill has been passed, and the per- by other gentlemen, were read a first time. sons charged with insubordination or mis- -Mr. Irving, Inspector-General of the conduct, to whom the noble lord alludes, Customs, presented an Account of the may be brought to trial, and punished, if Imports of Great Britain, for 18 years, guilty. Of course, there is nothing in this ending 5th January, 1805.-Mr. Mitford, argument that applies to the case. With from the Treasury, presented an Account regard to the course which I would recom- of the public expenditure for the last year, mend, I propose, with the leave of the and of the Unfunded Debt on the 5ih of house, to bring in the bill this night, that it January last.-Mr. Young, from the Custom should be read a first time, ordered to be House, presented certain Accounts relative printed, and that the second reading should to the Trade and Navigation of Great Bri. take place on Tuesday, when such gentle- tain, directed to be annually laid before men as are inclined to oppose it, may come Parliament; and certain Accounts were prepared with their objections.
presented from the Post Office. These acEarl Temple, in reply, said, that recruiting counts were severally ordered to lie on the parties were sent expressly into the neigh- table. Adjourned. bourhood where militia regiments were quartered, for the express purpose of enticing the men to enlist, and did not take that course by chance. With regard to
Friday, March 22. another point, he did not state merely that (MINUTES.] The house having attendcourts martial were suspended, but he com- ed the house of lords, pursuant to a sumplained also that the execution of sentences mons by the Usher of the Black Rod, the were countermanded in cases of trials al- Speaker, on their return, informed them ready had.
that the Royal Assent had been given by The question for leave to bring in the Commission to the Marine Mutiny, 'and bill was then put, and carried, without a Lord J. Thynne's Indemnity Bills.-Mr. division. It was then brought up and read Johnson, from the Chief Secretary's Office a first time.- Adjourned.
in Ireland, presented an Account of the Irish 6l. per Cent. Duties. Ordered 10 lie
on the Table.-Mr. Irving, from the CusHOUSE OF LORDS.
toms in Scotland, presented an Account of Friday, March 22.
the Exports and Imports to and from Scot. (MINUTES.)--Counsel were further heard land; and also of all Arrears and Balances at considerable length, relative to the in the hands of the Commissioners. Or.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
dered to lie on the Table.-Mr. Huskisson mit to the Committee those taxes by which I presented an Account of the public Expen- propose to supply the deficiency of the diture for the last year. Ordered to lie on Ways and Means for defraying the charge the Table. Similar Accounts' with those for interest on the loan, in consequence of from Scotland were presented from the the decision of the House in rejecting, the Commissioners of Customs in England, and tax upon Horses used in Husbandry, and the disposed of in the same manner.- Mr. Sta- alteration which has taken place in the tax velly, from the Post Office, presented an upon Salt, with regard to the export of that Account of the Arrears and Balances in the article. The estimate of the produce' of hands of the Postmasters-General, up to the the part of the tax on Salt was little short of 5th of January, 1805. Ordered to lie on 65,0001. and the tax on Horses employed the table. The Chancellor of the Exche- in Busbandry was estimated at 340,0001. quer moved, that there be laid before the making together a sum of 405,0001. for House, in consequence of the 10th Report which it is necessary to substitute other of the Commissioners of Naval Inquiry, an taxes.' Feeling myself called upon to do so Account of the money paid in di charge of with as litile delay as possible, it must be, the balance of 433,000, 17s. 6d. in the obvious to the Coinmittee, that it is not easy hands of John Fordyce, Esq. and also of without sufficient time being allowed, to rethe proposals made by hiin, and the securi- sort to a source of taxation founded on ties offered for the liquidation thereof. Or- distinct plan consistent with the means of dered.--Mr. H. Thornton, after stating the providing for the deficiency, without mavarious proceedings that had taken place in terial augmentation to the public burthens. regard to the days appointed for receiving The proposal I have to make will consist of the several petitions upon both sides of the more numerous taxes, to a small extent subject of this petition ; the proceedings each, over certain articles of the Customs, also in former petitions, the comparative and some of the Excise. I shall begin with
I number of freeholders to be enquired into, those of the Excise. The principal article &c.'&c. moved that the order for taking is that of Glass, on which I propose an adinto consideration the remaining petition of dition of 50 per cent. to the existing duties. Sir Francis Burdett against" G. B. Main. The duties at present paid are on the cwt. waring, Esq. on the oth of April, be dis- 11. 125: 8d. for plate glass, 8s. 28. on what charged; which being agreed to, he next is called Streadwinter's glass, and 4s. 8d. on moved that it be taken into consideration on crown glass. The additional duties I exthe 23rd of April.- A long conversation then pect will produce 80,0001.- The next artook place between Mr. Fox, who thought ticle is that of Bricks and Tiles. The prethe lists should be first given in upon the sent duty on bricks and tiles is five shillings last petition; and that the 23d would be an a thousand, which will produce 37,0001. unlikely day, for a full attendance, on ac- This is an article on which there is an alcount of a festival on that day; Mr. Thorn- lowance made for bricks and tiles used for ton, Mr. Creevey, the Chancellor of the sheds and erections for the purpose of farmExchequer, and others: Mr. Thornton ing and husbandry, and consequently the proposed to appoint the 25th of April; to pressure of the additional tax will be the less which Mr. Creevey moved as an amend felt. The next article is an augmentation înent the 1st day of June. On which the of the duty on Auctions—6d. in additon to gallery was cleared for a division, which the present duty on the sale of Estates, and did not however take place; and Mr. Thorn: Lod. on the sale of goods. The augmentaton's motion was agreed to. Mr. Thornton tion is 1-6th part of the present duties on the then moved, that the lists of freeholders ob- first, and 1-5th of the present duties on the jected to on both sides, upon Mr:Main-second: the produce I estimate at 31,0001. wairing's late petition, preparatory to the The next article is Coffee. It will be rescrutiny, should be delivered in, on or be- collected that when the duty was last adfore the 15th of "April, which was also a- vanced upon Tea, there was not a proporgreed to.
tionate tax imposed on Coffee. It does not [SUPPLEMENTARY Budget.]-The occur to me that there is any reason which Chancellor of the frchequer having moved applies to one of these articles, as an object the order of the day for the House to resolve of taxation, that does not equally apply to itself into a Committee of Ways and Means, the other, except that, with respect to tea, the Secretary at War in the Chair, spoke as it is an article of distinct consumption by follows:---Sir, it is now my distý to sub- the lower' brders of the people, while cof