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it was deemed the most natural and certain | committee to examine how far the requests way of securing their allegiance, to infringe of the petitioners may prudently be granted. as little as possible on their laws and man- Now, supposing it to be doubtful whether ners, and to allow to their religious opi- catholics might safely be admitted into the nions, not merely unlimited toleration, but great offices of state, it is perfectly obvious a degree of establishment: and what has that granting the capacity of enjoying all been the consequence? Has rebellion, or offices, does not confer the possession of even uneasiness, been ever once heard of one; their actual admission into office would among them? No, surely; under every afterwards entirely depend on the pleasure circumstance they have proved affection- and discretion of the executive government. ately loyal. And the comparison of this But, again, if this be too large a boon, is case with that of Ireland almost demonstrates the evil apprehended from the influence of that the causes of disaffection should be the clergy so enormous, as to render the sought for elsewhere than in the diffe- admixture of a small proportion of catholic rence of religion, and that catholics will be members in the imperial parliament an good subjects to a protestant government if experiment too dangerous to be attempted? regarded with confidence, and treated with Why thus terrify ourselves with shadows, liberality. Another argument of the same and sacrifice justice at the shrine of an irgentleman was, indeed, most wonderful; rational fear? But, grant all the petiwe were told that catholics cannot safely be tioners ask," says the hon. attorney general, admitted to the capacity of sitting in par- "and they will not then be satisfied; why liament, because, in that case, all the Irish. then risk any thing unless you are determembers would instantly be catholic: that mined to go to the full length of establishfinding themselves unable from the com- ing their church and clergy?" Perhaps, parative paucity of their numbers to carry sir, to grant even this in some degree, any point openly, they would directly form might not be unwise; it certainly would a compacted junto, and compel the British not be inconsistent, since a college has alminister to comply with all their demands; ready been endowed for their education : to give them, first, all the patronage of their at any rate, I should think that the additional own country, by which they would be power they would gain by our acceding to enabled to turn the whole strength of it to their present request, would not afford them their own nefarious purposes, and obtain the slightest chance of forcing from us what next, the entire subversion of the establish- farther we might think it unsafe to grant; ment, civil and ecclesiastical, of the united while, in the mean-time, they would askingdom! Could a more extravagant idea suredly be better satisfied, more amalgahave been engendered by the most dis- mated into the same mass, more disposed tempered imagination? Not to mention cordially to co-operate in every measure for the libel it implies on these supposed Irish the common defence, in every thing tendmembers, or rather conspirators, and on the ing to promote the general welfare. In a English government; could any minister word, by such a compliance with their wishes, be weak enough so to comply, while he had love and gratitude would be substituted for five hundred and fifty-eight protestant mem- aversion and fear. By introducing some bers remaining, to whom these schemes of Irish catholics into this house, misconcepdestruction might be revealed? If Irishmen tions would be mutually removed, asperities could be found foolish and desperate enough would be gradually softened down. to make such an attempt, can it be imagined should come to know each other better, that a minister could have been chosen by and might expect to reap, at a much earlier a protestant king, or tolerated by a protes- period, the advantages of a substantial union, tant parliament, who should hesitate for an intimate and complete.-In maintaining this instant to discover and punish it? But it is cause, sir, I cannot be supposed to be acmere waste of words to contend against such tuated by any predilection for catholics or a chimera; much of what I have already catholicism as such I am a protestant dissaid affords also a strong presumption against senter, and possibly at the very farthest disthe existence of such a priestly influence tance from them in religious sentiment, over the mass of the people as is likely to both as to discipline and doctrine; but, firmly produce any considerable mischief. Neither persuaded that every man has a right to enis this the present question, but whether joy and profess his respective opinions, any objection is to be thence deduced against without being therefore subjected either to acceding to the motion now. before us; reproach or disabilities, I undoubtedly must which, let it be remembered, is only for a sympathize with them. Beyond this, I

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Irish parliament, for the purpose of indul- stituents were of that persuasion, he could gence to the catholics, there were only be considered as the organ of the catholics? thirteen members in the house who voted in My hon. friend may be a very good protesfavour of it; and yet such was the general tant; but certainly no very fit representaagitation, and such the strong sensations tive for the catholics. All the evils appreexcited by its agitation, that the govern- hended from giving them seats in parliament was soon convinced that something ment, are now no more than fanciful and must be done upon it. The country at that chimerical. It was formerly said, if you time was not well governed; and, towards give the catholics the elective franchise, the the approach of the ensuing session of par- consequence will be that they will vote for liament, when it was expected the measure no member without putting him to a test would again be brought forward, emissaries that he will be obedient to their purposes. were sent down by the administration to But they have since obtained the franchise, procure resolutions and petitions from the and no such tests or other consequences have different county grand juries against it; been known to happen. It turned out to and they succeeded. But the catholics see- be no more than a phantom of distant daning no hope of success when the Irish go- ger, which vanished as you approached it. vernment was against them, came over to All the danger that can happen has already England and petitioned the throne. Every been incurred. You have given suffrages thing was in readiness for opening the ses- to, and put arms into the hands of, persion of the Irish parliament. The speech from sons but slightly educated, and most liable the throne was prepared, and every re- to entertain the prejudices you are so much sistance to the catholic claims determined afraid of; and refuse privileges to the higher But his majesty was graciously pleased orders, whose minds are enlightened, whose to favour the petition, and an alteration for principles are more sound, and who possess the intended speech was transmitted to Ire- the greatest stakes in the country.—My land, with a recommendation in favour of hon. friend has at all times opposed the the catholics. The change of opinion that catholic claims, not as a question of policy, took place was equally violent and sudden. but as a question of religion, and in support These very grand juries in the different of his opinions he goes back to musty recounties who had assembled, and agreed cords and obsolete councils, and the ages of in resolutions against the claims of the ca- ignorance and bigotry. But will any man tholics, in a short time after were them- in his senses seriously compare the opinions selves the first who voted in their favour :- of the catholics of the eleventh with those and thus the grand juries and the parliament of the nineteenth century? Have not the were disgraced. I remember when I was protestants themselves changed their tenets laughed at for saying the catholic claims and opinions with the revolutions of time? must be granted, by many of those persons Are there not new sects of dissenters springwho in a very short time afterwards voted ing up every day? In this age of rapid and in their favour. The Irish parliament, in progressive improvement and cultivation of my opinion, acted on that occasion with the intellect, are we to be gravely told, great prudence, in not granting them the that the catholic mind alone stands still, whole of what they asked for at once; and and that the people of this day are to be so much inclined am I to this gradual ex- convicted because their ancestors 600 years tension of privileges, that, should the ago were bigots? If so, let me ask again, house go into a committee on the petition, who is the man amongst us who might not I should be averse to granting all their de- be equally condemned upon the same prinmands, though I would agree to members ciple? While arts, sciences, and manuof that religion sitting in both houses. No factures improve, it would be hard if the man, who values the constitution, can ap-human mind alone, and peculiarly the caof three millions of his fellow subprove jects being unrepresented in the parliament; but it was very well argued by the hon. mover of this question, that the catholic body is not even virtually represented, though the members of it are allowed to possess the elective franchise. I will even put it to the learned and hon. gent. near me (Dr. Duigenan), whether, if his con

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tholic mind, remained where it was, and that men in this age should be tried by a few foolish resolutions passed in the council of Lateran. It has been said, that if the catholics were once admitted to an equal participation of rights, their first step would be, to overthrow the protestant government. I, however, am so far of a contrary opinion, that I can never conceive the union of the

two countries, or British connexion, safe, | fittest instrument for making proselytes. In while three millions of our fellow-subjects England the king had no competitor, and are held in political bondage. The strongest easily diffused his reformation amongst the security you can give to the protestant es- people; in Ireland he possessed but a very tablishment, is to reconcile to it three mil- limited authority, and the doctrines he wishlions of your fellow-subjects, who con- ed to enforce were considered as coming ceive that they are unfairly treated. No- from an enemy at open war with the peothing appears to me so evil, so extravagant, ple, their habits, customs, and prejudices, and so unreasonable, as to suppose you can and therefore were opposed and resisted by keep such multitudes always quiet, unless them. The impolitic oppression exercised you are determined to redress them. Nor in Ireland was a further obstacle to its prowas there ever any thing more difficult for gress. Henry passed a law prohibiting the you to do, than to legislate for those whom English settlers from intermarrying or fosyou refuse to reconcile, and to whom, ac-tering with the natives. As this word fos cording to the speech of the hon. member, tering has an application in Ireland diffenever under any circumstances can further rent from what it has here, it may be right concessions be made, nor any change be to explain that it refers to the poorer sort of effected on the protestant mind in their fa- the females suckling the children of the your. Many persons have expressed their rich, which, in that country, is productive surprise, that although the reformation ex- of a kind of intimate intercourse and con tended itself so rapidly in England, it made nexion. It is also to be observed, that it so little and such slow progress in Ireland; was the same parliament of Henry that probut a little reflection will soon resolve this mulgated the reformation, which also passed problem. It is allowed that the same means this prohibiting act, which violated all the have not been used in one country as in manners and customs of the people. In the other, for making the reformation take every respect the proceedings in the two Foot. We have records and testimonies in countries were so extremely different, that abundance, to show that in times com- the reformation was not allowed the same paratively remote, Ireland was conspicuous play in the one that it was in the other. for its civilization and literature; but the When the king thought proper to shut up reign of Henry VIII., when the reforma- the monasteries, and destroy the monastic tion commenced, was one of the darkest livings in England, he bestowed them, by ages of that country. There was another grant, upon great landed men of considercause which did not less operate against the able property, who commanded the respect progress of reform. When the monarch of the people. In Ireland, on the contrary, already mentioned first attempted to extend he bestowed them on English settlers, and it in Ireland, it appeared, from the letter needy adventurers, whose interests were adressed to him on that occasion by the Irish constantly at variance with those of the master of the rolls, that the sovereign's go- people.-Though the territory of the government did not extend beyond twenty vernment, as I observed before, extended miles from Dublin, and of course his in- no further than twenty miles from Dublin, fluence was proportionably contracted. It yet bishops and other clergy were sent over, was bad policy to attempt at the same time who never thought of residing on their the conquest and the reformation of the benefices; and instead of propagating their country; and yet the reformer travelled with doctrines, had, in fact, no connexion whatthe sword in one hand and the reform in ever with the inhabitants. If the religion the other. It is therefore manifest that the then adopted had been at that early period regular order was inverted; for the king taught in Ireland, it would, no doubt, have should have conquered the country first, had pretty nearly the same effect that it had and endeavoured to convert the inhabitants here; but, in that country, it does not appear afterwards. Here the reformation was pro- that any one ever attempted to teach it; nor pagated by argument and reason. The rewas the protestant religion ever tendered to formers preached to the people in their own the people, except in the form of an act of language; they listened to the voice of rea- parliament. But if Henry failed in the son, and were in time convinced. In Ire-mode which he adopted for propagating the land the reformed religion was preached in a language not understood by the natives. The method taken was, to propagate it by the sword, which has seldom proved the VOL. IV.

reformation amongst a people who could not understand a word of the English language, Queen Elizabeth hit upon a most notable project to remedy the defect; for, 3 Q