in form but in substance, and that such innovations on their ancient maxims, or, if they chose to call them so, their ancient prejudices, were not attempted till their representatives were consulted. He wished not to revive the subjects which the House had already debated; but surely, if the whole country had been alarmed on points still disputable, it was not being too delicate to feel alarm on such a measure as that now in debate, unless they could persuade themselves that a seditious pamphlet was pregnant with every possible danger, but a standing army perfectly harmless. He knew not whether the House had lost its former jealousy of a standing army; he knew not whether the people had lost theirs; but if they had, it was the duty of their representatives to endeavour to revive it; and he should therefore vote for the motion. should not look to it with jealousy; but if the army, as was now the case, was continued from year to year, by the consent and express vote of parliament, for the safety of the realm, the conservation of liberty, the protection of property, and the support of the constitution, the House would hardly consider such an army as an object of jealousy. In the remote periods alluded to by the gentlemen who supported the motion, many might oppose from opinion, and many from prejudice; but the House would carry in their minds, that those who took advantage of the supposed constitutional prejudices in those times against a standing army, in order to raise a popular clamour against it, were the favourers of the claims of the Pretender; and the House would thence draw one certain inference, that popular words are often made the vehicle of the most insidious, dangerous, and inimical strokes Mr. Pitt said, that, not wishing to de- against the constitution.-Some things, tain the House, he would compress what he said, he should never listen to, without he had to say into as small a compass defying the parties who might utter them as possible. He thought it necessary, ne- to proof. When he heard gentlemen alvertheless, to enter shortly into the col- lege, that it was a fixed system of his ma lateral subjects that had crept into discus- jesty's ministers to pass by the parliament, sion, although he considered them foreign and use every effort to increase the preroto the substantial part of the business be- gative of the crown, he should not content fore the House. He said, he would not himself with merely denying the fact, but take upon him to dictate, what degree of dare them to the proof of it. He defied opposition, or what degree of support, any man to show a single instance, in the members of that House owed to ad- which, forgetting the duty he owed to ministration: every gentleman was him- the constitution, he had passed by the self to judge of the rules that should go- rights of that or the other House. As to vern him, and should from thence draw the charge so much relied on, as making the line of his conduct. For himself, he an infraction on the rights of that House, desired not that the present state of public namely, the additional pay, or bread-moaffairs should shelter his measures from ney to the soldiery, it had, in the course inquiry, or preclude the discussion of the of the last session, undergone the nicest subject then before the House, or any discussion, and no man then ventured to other that should occur, touching the start an idea against it. Why those who conduct of himself and his colleagues. thought themselves the only guardians of -In the arguments adduced in support the constitution who now arraigned it, did of the motion, much stress had been laid not then step forward with their objecon the jealousy the House should main- tions, might possibly be matter of surtain of a standing army; and in support prise to the House, but was not to him. of that doctrine, reference was had to the That allowance, he said, was made, to policy of our ancestors. On this subject prevent a deduction from the pay of solhe begged leave to remind the House, diers, which usage had introduced conthat the word jealousy was capable of trary to justice, and was in lieu of a stopbeing used in a variety of different senses; page productive of great hardship and inand as, in former times, it was success-justice to the soldiery.The propriety of fully so, he hoped it would now be unsuccessfully held out in the delusive light of being dangerous to the principles of the constitution. If an army was augmented beyond its usual constitutional bounds in time of peace, God forbid that the House erecting barracks had been so ably defended, that but little was left for him to add on the subject. The circumstances of the country were such as made it necessary to adopt that mode of lodging the troops in a greater extent than for merly, and it had always been adopted as circumstances required. But even if it had been a measure entirely new, he should not have been deterred by any fear of innovation from doing that which he considered as essential to the safety of the country. He denied, however, that it was an innovation. The principle was so little new and so little dangerous, that in all places where troops were in general stationary, barracks had been long since erected. Let them look at London and Westminster, let them look all along the coast, at Chatham, at Portsmouth, at Dover, at Plymouth, &c. &c., and in Scotland, at Edinburgh, at Stirling, at Fort William, at Fort George, at all these places the troops were lodged in barracks, and no danger had hitherto been either felt or apprehended. The circumstances of the country, coupled with the general state of affairs, rendered it advisable to provide barracks in other parts of the kingdom. A spirit had appeared in some of the manufacturing towns which made it necessary that troops should be kept near them. In these towns then, to dispose of the troops in barracks, was a plan far better than to distribute them among the mass of the people; where jealousy might rankle into hatred, and produce tumult and disturbance. It would also operate as a preventive of the seduction of the army, who were by certain persons considered as the chief obstacle to the execution of their designs.-Mr. Pitt concluded by moving the other orders of the day. Mr. Grey said, that the right hon. gentleman had asserted, that there existed in this country a desperate faction. These were words which conveyed a serious charge, and might upon some future occasion be made the subject of inquiry and discussion. He could not help remarking on the unfair dexterity which the right hon. gentleman had exerted in the dissection of the honourable mover's arguments. He had asserted, that because no specific complaint had been made against the erection of any particular barracks, such a measure must, of course, have been congenial to the feel. ings of the people, and conformable to the sentiments of their ancestors. But it must be recollected, that although no complaint had been urged against any particular measure, the opposition to the general plan of erecting barracks had been unvarying and undeviating. He had also expressed a wish, that a Britisht army should partake of the feelings, and be in exact unison with the sentiments of the general mass of the people. But if he was sincere in this wish, he had taken means not to execute, but to counteract his intention. For surely mankind were much more prone to assimilate their opinions to those with whom they were in the habits of constant intercourse, than to others with whom any commerce was partially interdicted by a seclusion of their persons. By confining the troops in barracks, instead of parcelling them out among the people, their sentiments would be estranged from the general modes of thinking which prevailed among their fellow-citizens; and thus the seeds of a direct contrariety of opinion would be sowed by those very means which the right hon. gentleman professed to think would be productive of a uniformity. He had also said that the objections to a standing army during a former period, were made only by the factious and discontented, by the enemies of the present establishment, and the adherents of the exiled family. Such a description, however, did not apply to all the opposers of that measure, since the late Earl of Chatham was amongst the most strenuous of them-an exception to which the right hon. gentleman would doubtless subscribe. Mr. Grey concluded, by consuring the erection of barracks, as a measure new in its principle and dangerous in its consequences. The motion for the other orders of the day was carried without a division. East India Budget.] Feb. 25. The House having resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider of the several Accounts, Papers, and Reports, presented from the Directors of the East India Company, Mr. Secretary Dundas rose and said:It is now six years since I introduced the practice of bringing annually before a committee of the House of Commons, a statement of the situation of affairs in the provinces of India; a measure which has tended to establish a regularity in their accounts, to enforce an accuracy in their estimates, and, by subjecting the several civil and military establishments to a jealous investigation, has answered my most sanguine expectations, and been productive of all those salutary effects, which must ever attend publicity in matters of account and revenue. The statement I now propose to lay before you is different in its object, and must of course, be different in its nature, from those I have hitherto troubled you with. Those of former years, except in one instance, have been confined to the state of the financial affairs of the company in India, exhibiting the balance upon the comparison of the revenues and charges of the several settlements. The present is to be a statement of a more comprehensive nature. I mean to combine together the affairs of the East India company at home and abroad, pointing out their relative effects upon each other, and placing before you the general balance resulting from such a combination. For this purpose, it will be necessary for me to draw your attention to a variety of different considerations. I must first state the amount of the Indian revenue, with the annual burthens upon it, including the amount of interest payable on the debts in India. By this statement you will perceive what is the surplus applicable to the purposes of commerce or the liquidation of debts; and as the exports from this country to India form a part of the general applicable fund in India, that subject must, of course, enter into the detail. Having ascertained the amount of applicable surplus in India, I shall, in the next place, advert to the effect which such a sum, applied to the purchase of goods in India, would produce on the sales at home; and attention being likewise paid to the circumstances of the China trade, the result of the two, combined together, will give the gross amount of the company's sales in Leadenhall-street. From that gross amount must be deducted the charges of customs, freight, and the other burthens to which the trade is liable, so as to show, on the whole, what is the nett commercial surplus arising from the excess of sales above the prime cost of, and all charges on the goods sold by the company. Having established, as clearly and accurately as I can, those necessary preliminaries, I shall conclude with suggesting, what I conceive to be an equitable application of the surplus arising both from the revenues and trade; due attention being paid to the respective claims and interests of the East-India company and the public. the late war, of the revenues and charges Of Bengal, on this average, amounted to............ £.5,454,107 Madras, to Bombay, to Of Bengal 1,296,468 147,155 Add, expenses of 50,000 In these years a considerable expense was incurred by preparations for war, and therefore the average cannot be considered as giving the result too favourable. The countries ceded by Tippoo at the termination of the war are estimated to yield a revenue of about 400,000l. But, in order to bring this subject under one point of view, there is laid before the House an estimate of the future revenues and expenses of the several settlements in India, formed by a committee of the court of directors, for the use of the proprietors of India stock. In this estimate the commercial charges at the several settlements are stated as charges upon the revenues. In all former views of this subject, they have been considered as belonging to the trade, as that is the only purpose for which they are incurred. By this estimate the revenues are stated at 6,963,6251. and the charges, including commercial, at 5,342,575l. In this view the nett revenue of India appears to be 1,621,050l.; or if And first, with respect to the revenues the commercial charges, amounting to and charges of the several settlements in 104,450/., be excluded, the excess of reveIndia. No accounts having been re-nue above the civil and military establish ceived from India since the termination of ments is 1,725,500l. 499] 33 GEORGE III. As I mean, not only on this, but on other occasions, to draw my conclusions from this estimate, I shall offer a few further observations upon it. It has been usual on some former occasions, to charge the directors of the company with endeavouring to exhibit too favourable a view of the state of their affairs; and perhaps the deranged state of their accounts some years past left them so unacquainted with their real situation, as to give some countenance to such an imputation. At present, however, the case is totally changed: even the estimates of the annual receipt and expenditure have been brought to an extraordinary degree of accuracy; and every year a comparison between those estimates and the actual result, has been laid before this House and the public. There is not, therefore, now, any apprehension of the state of the company's affairs in India being misunderstood from the confusion of their accounts; nor is there any fear of unknown claims being hereafter brought forward. In order to place in a stronger light the moderation with which this estimate is formed, and indeed the probability of its being much under what may actually be expected, I refer the committee to the particulars in No. I. which, compared with the present estimate, will show that most of the articles of revenue are under-rated. Not to detain the committee, I shall just state the receipt and expense of each presidency, on an average of three years, compared with the present estimate. REVENUES. Average of three years. Bengal. Madras Bombay Present 5,454,1075,033,000 1,296,468 1,540,000 6,897,750 6,963,625 Present 3,047,000 Excess of Expenses 5,233,717 5,188,125 50,000 50,000 5,283,7175,238,125 East India Budget [500 of those three years, and comparing it With respect to the charges, the difference between the amount on the average of the three years, and that stated in the estimate, being only 45,592!. requires but little observation; further than to remark, that as the revenue from salt is stated so much below its former actual amount, and as this in part arises from a smaller quantity being supposed to be sold, the expense of manufacture should of course be proportionally reduced. The preparations for war, also, at Madras, in 1789-90, appear to have made a considerable increase of charges there, as they were raised from 38 lacks of pagodas, the amount in 1788-9, to 43 lacks, being an increase of upwards of 200,000l. This increases the average, and is an addition to what the expense would have been stated for times of profound peace. The countries ceded by Tippoo will occasion a small additional expense in the charges of collection; but considering how much the acquisition of them has weakened that foe, against whose ambitious projects we were obliged to be almost continually in a state of warlike preparation, instead of there being a necessity for our keeping up a larger military establishment in time of peace, there is every prospect of our being able to reduce it. The means of defence, also, with which those countries abound, on the part adjacent to Tippoo's remaining dominions, afford still further security against any future attempts from him to disturb the peace of the Carnatic. On the whole of these considerations, I have no hesitation in giving as my opinion, that the military expenses may be reduced below their amount previous to the late war; and consequently, in stating the total of the civil and military charges at 5,238,1257. I take them above what they will in all probability amount to in future. These several circumstances are sufficient to prove, that the nett revenues on the whole of this estimate are taken below the amount, which there is every prospect of being realised. INTEREST ON THE DEBTS.-The next subject for consideration is, the amount of the debts in India; as the interest on them is the first object to which the nett revenue is applicable. The total of debts owing in India, on the 31st January 1792 is stated in No. 9 at 9,084,550l. This includes every article of debt known at that period: and, as I have already observed, the bills not due or presented for acceptance are considered as part of the debts then owing, which was not the case in former statements of this nature. The war continued about a month after this date, which, together with the charges attending the return of the troops to their respective stations, would consequently cause an addition of expense; but against this is to be placed the amount to be received from Tippoo, as the company's share of the price of peace, being 110 lacks of rupees or about 1,200,000l. Of this about 500,000l. has been given as a tribute to the merits of the army under the marquis Cornwallis: the remainder would be applicable as it was received, towards defraying the arrears of the army. Besides this a greater proportion of the land revenues in India is collected in the three months, from January to April, than in any other quarter of the year. In tak ing the total of debts, therefore, at their amount on the 31st of January 1792 I state them at a sum probably greater than they were at the termination of the war. The amount of debts bearing in terest in India, at this date, is stated in the latter part of No. 9, and amounts to 6,933,943/.; the interest on which was 592,2097. The amount of interest on the debts at this period was greatly increased by loans having been raised in the preceding year, for the purpose of supplying the exigencies of the war, at 12 per cent. which is the common interest in that country; but is more than the company pay on their paper, except on such extraordinary occasions. The sums thus raised amounted to about 450,000l. at Bengal, and 350,0004 at Madras (making together 800,0001.); which immediately on the termination of the war, the Madras government began to pay off: and, as appears on the note on the side of the account, 194,000l. of these loans there had been paid off, which lessened the interest about 21,700. The additional credit which our govern. ments in India must have acquired by the successful termination of the late war, would soon enable them, not only to pay off those loans at so high a rate of interest, but speedily to reduce the rate upon the whole debt. As a proof of this, I refer to the state of affairs before the late war broke out, when the certificates at Bengal were issued at six per cent. interest; of which, to the amount of 509,6571. were out standing on the 31st January 1792. In the estimate adopted by the court of directors, already referred to, the interest on the debts in India is given, allowing for the amount actually known to be paid off. The amount of the principal is 6,669,0827. and of the interest on it 561,923. Although the reasons I have stated would warrant the taking a less sum as the interest now payable on the debts in India, to avoid any objection of that nature, this amount is taken as a charge at present upon the revenues of India. Therefore from 1,621,050l. deducting for interest 561,9237. the nett surplus, after defraying the civil, military, and commercial charges, and interest on the debts, is 1,059,127. Besides this sum there is estimated to be supplied from the sales of Europe goods and certificates 350,000l., making a total of 1,409,1277. The exertions which the company have |