and the Bank, as the two parties from whom they expected measures of relief to proceed. One of the members for the city had asked a question of his right hon. friend the chancellor of the Exchequer; but, in putting the question, he, as was very often the case, had pointed out what kind of answer he wished to receive. The question was, whether government intended to issue additional Exchequer-bills, which the hon. member said would afford effectual relief to the mercantile interest. The hon. member for Callington (Mr. Attwood), who was always considered a great practical authority on questions connected with commerce and currency, instead of recommending an additional issue of some millions of Exchequer-bills, said, that the Bank ought immediately to sell all the Exchequer-bills and government securities which they now held. Now, as such a sale could produce no other result than that of drawing into the coffers of the Bank the money of the purchasers, that result would be diametrically opposite to the one desired by the hon. member for London. The opinion of the hon. member for Callington was, that the hands of the Bank should be strengthened, by throwing their securities into the market at any loss whatever. What was the principle on which this was to be done, or what were the difficulties that might be connected with it, he should not now discuss; but he thought that he had shown sufficient for the purpose of justifying his majesty's ministers, when he had thus proved, that, if they were blamed for not coming down at once with effective measures, many of those practical men, who were the most prompt to blame, were not agreed amongst themselves, as to the measures that ought to be pursued; and not only so, but that, following their own particular theories, they came to conclusions diametrically opposite to each other. If there was any thing which could add to the distress of a commercial country, it was the circumstances which had occurred within the last day or two, and which had been alluded to, with respect to the difficulty of procuring bills of exchange to carry on the common mercantile transactions of the day. The great pressure of distress arose immediately from this difficulty; for if bills of exchange, which were the ordinary medium of carrying on the commerce of the country, could be procured, the Bank was perfectly ready VOL. XIV. and willing to extend every facility which they could properly afford the mercantile interests of the country.-The difficulty was, that there was such a mistrust, and such a want of confidence among commercial men at that moment, that bills of exchange could not be procured, and therefore there were no intervening means of procuring from the Bank this medium of their assistance. That the country must be in a much greater state of distress, and must be much more in need of assistance, when these bills ceased to perform their ordinary functions, there could be no doubt; and the question was, how that distress could be remedied. The hon. member for Callington saw no difficulty in affording that remedy, if the Bank would take goods as a security; but he had observed that that was contrary to the principles of political economy. Mr. Attwood, in explanation, said, he had been entirely misunderstood. What he had said was, that for the Bank to lend money upon goods, in an emergency such as the present, was not contrary to any principle of political economy. Mr. Huskisson begged pardon of the hon. member, but he had understood him to say, that if government could not take goods, the Bank might; but that the measure was contrary to political economy. Whether or not it was contrary to political economy, there was a more practical objection to it; such a proceeding was contrary to their charter; the Bank could not deal in goods, nor lend money upon goods. The question then was, what could be done to supply a more abundant circulation? Now, if there was one of the principles of the committee of 1819 in which all agreed, it was this-that if a circulation was furnished by bank notes to supply the exigencies of commerce, and the wants of the country, it was immaterial whether it was supported on the credit of one species of security or another. In other words, it was immaterial whether the number of bills of exchange was greater in proportion to government securities, or vice versa. As far as the currency was concerned, it was immaterial. In other respects, indeed, there might be objections; but, provided the circulation was supplied, and commerce was relieved from embarrassments, it was immaterial whether the Bank supplied issues of notes on bills of exchange or on other security. Then, if the Bank of England, which was not so choked up as had been asserted, as not to 2 D be able to supply aid to the circulation, afforded, must soon be in a state of general if the Bank felt it expedient to buy ex-bankruptcy. He must do the right hon. chequer-bills in the market, in consequence gentleman the justice to say, that he had of that species of security being so much conducted himself with great candour. depressed, those purchases would throw a What he had stated in the House, he had farther amount of currency into the coun- stated in the interviews which he had had try, and thereby afford it relief. This with him. He was aware that the Bank was the foundation of the plan of his right of England could not legally advance hon. friend. The hon. gentleman who money on goods; but he thought there spoke last had said, that if we created a was some difference between the Bank precedent which went to allow a party advancing money on exchequer-bills who had speculated to excess to come and alone, and advancing it on them with the ask for relief, it would be highly impolitic. further assurance of goods; and he beHis right hon. friend had admitted, that lieved that, although the advance on exmen would speculate more readily if they chequer-bills might relieve the money knew that, under loss, they would be sure market, and enable some stock-jobbers to find relief. He admitted, that if we to carry on their speculations with greater once taught the extravagant trader and facility, no relief would be afforded to the speculator, whenever they embarked those who required it quite as much, if in rash schemes, that, should they not get not more, and who had no exchequer-bills out in time (for that was the object of to offer as security. He did not wonder most of the parties) they might always at the difficulty of procuring bills of exexpect to obtain an asylum in government, change; for, in times like the present, it was as much calculated to encourage men were as jealous of their credit as of speculation as the poor-laws were calcu- their capital. He had never been of lated to encourage vagrancy, and to dis opinion that relief could be extended excourage honest industry. Therefore, if pressly to merchants on the security of the Bank, being at liberty, and if it had goods, but he thought the announcement, the means, would issue, until relief be felt that some relief would be afforded them, by the public, an additional quantity of would be almost in itself sufficient. He paper, he thought it might be done with admitted that commercial men and counperfect safety, under the arrangements try bankers were equally oppressed with made between the Bank and his right hon. present difficulties; and he would put a friend, and his noble friend at the head of case which would show the effect of the the Treasury. This plan did not exactly relief to be afforded. Suppose a country follow the precedent of the hon. member banker had a mortgage offered to him, for London, and, indeed, it would be dif- and he lent money upon it, perhaps with ficult to do so; but, such was the extent the view of getting his notes into circulaof the difficulties at present existing, that tion on such good security; suppose that, immediate relief was necessary; and he after this loan made by the country banker, was of opinion that a measure, which times of distress like the present should might commence to-morrow morning, was arise, and his London banker would adbetter than one which, however excellent vance nothing on his account, he would in other respects, was distinguished by be unable to pay his own bills which, in a this great objection that it could not be moment, might be poured in upon him— adopted until it had passed through all he might say that in six months he could the branches of the legislature. Under get in the money on this mortgage, but these circumstances, he was of opinion his creditors could not wait till that time that, as a relief of some kind was imme- arrived. Now, if he could get exchequerdiately necessary, the best course was that bills on this mortgage, he might go to his which had been proposed by his right hon. London banker, and on their security, he friend, and which, compared with every could obtain those advances which would other, was the freest from inconvenience not only enable him to meet his own bills, and danger. but afford the greatest relief to the people of his neighbourhood, and neither the mortgage nor the exchequer-bills would ever come into the market. He was acquainted with a case which had occurred during the distresses of 1793, where a party derived support in a moment of great Mr. Ellice said, that the commercial world was now in a complete state of disorganization, and that the evils which had taken place in London were rapidly extending themselves all over the country, which, unless some relief was speedily On the first resolution being read a second time, Mr. Hudson Gurney rose, for the purpose of proposing the amendment which he had moved on the preceding evening, in the committee; namely, to omit the words "or by the Bank of England;" the object being to retain in circulation the one emergency from the deposit of exchequer. bills, which were lodged under lock and key; and, when the advance was paid, the bills were returned. He believed that this kind of relief was now much wanted. The country at large required something which should give an assurance that business would be kept up in its ordinary manner. It was now no longer a question in York-and-two pound Bank of England notes, in shire, who would pay his bills; for men there looked at each other almost with the consciousness, that they were equally incapable of meeting the demands made upon them. He saw all the difficulties which had been stated by the right hon. gentleman, but still he thought some facility of the kind he had proposed, might be afforded. We must get through this pinch as well as we could, and, for his part, he did not believe, that if government consented to issue five millions of exchequer bills, more than two millions would be asked for, and that even of that number, not half would ever come into the market. Mr. Pearse complained of the manner in which the Bank had been spoken of on former occasions, and observed, that their conduct had not arisen from a desire of profit, but had been caused by the particular circumstances by which they were surrounded. The report was then brought up. On the motion that it be read, Mr. T. Wilson observed, that the temporary aid by an increase of bank paper, would not afford relief to all those who were in need of it. If ministers would now declare, that they would grant relief in the old way, that declaration, circulated throughout the country by the press tomorrow, would revive confidence. The assurance of relief was almost all that was wanted. On the report being read, Mr. Attwood said, he had heard with surprise the assertion of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Huskisson), that the Bank of England were prohibited by their charter from lending money on goods. The confidence with which that erroneous assertion was made, had induced him to refer to the charter of the Bank up stairs. It contained no such prohibition. He would, for the satisfaction of the right hon. gentleman, in his own justification, read to the House a clause in the charter which distinctly recognized the power of the Bank to lend money on goods and commodities of whatever kind. order to prevent a total want of circulating medium in those districts where either the bankers had failed, or where the bankers notes should have been withdrawn. The hon. member said, he could not sit down without expressing his entire concurrence with every thing that had been stated by the honourable Bank director opposite (Mr. Pearse). He must say, that ever since he (Mr. G.) had had the honour of a seat in that House, the Bank of England had been most injuriously, he might say, most shamefully treated. Had it not been for the manner in which the Bank had come forward, and the measures they had taken, during the last six weeks, the country would have been in a state of indescribable embarrassment. Mr. Wodehouse said, he was satisfied with the amendment proposed by his hon. friend, the member for Newton. There was at present a great and alarming evil weighing on the country. Merchants were not able to keep their engagements, and any measures which gave us safety, would be a positive blessing. It was the duty of the legislature, under such circumstances, not to waste their time in idle and fastidious cavilling, but to adopt speedy and efficient measures. The only objection to it, he believed, grew out of the scrupulousness of gentlemen as to parliamentary consistency; but, though he had as great a regard for parliamentary consistency as any man, when founded on conviction, yet he thought it was not inconsistent, in some cases, for parliament to retrace its steps. He had sat in two small minorities on the subject of Mr. Peel's bill, and he was persuaded that measure had never been adequately and completely understood. He thought it would be no imputation on the consistency of parliament to reconsider that measure. He wished not to be understood as stating this with any view of opposing ministers. He was ready to give them all the support in his power, to enable them to relieve the country from its present embarrassmente. He saw a motion announced for the repeal of the assessed taxes, and when that or similar motions were made, he should be prepared to vote against them. But he thought government had taken a contracted view of this important subject; and he urged them to reconsider their determination. Unless the amendment of his hon. friend received the concurrence of the House, he thought that the distress of the country during the next six months would be insupportable. The gallery was then cleared for a division, but none took place, the amendment being negatived, and the original resolution agreed to by the House. for introducing the poor laws into Ireland. He was surprised, too, to hear the kind of reason which had been suggested for this extraordinary measure. His noble friend had read in an Irish paper an account of one person having died in the streets of Dublin for want; but, in spite of the poor laws of this country, he had also read in the English newspapers of persons dying from starvation in London. He knew what those laws were, for he had a small property in this country, and he would say, that a more mischievous, a more impoverishing, a more demoralizing system, never existed; and this system, these new projectors wished to extend to Ireland. It was like a man who was suffering under a violent disease, and obliged to have recourse to severe remedies, and who should persist in making some other person submit to the same remedies who was in health. One of the ablest writers on political economy, speaking of the mis HOUSE OF LORDS. Wednesday, February 15. POOR LAWS IN IRELAND.] The Earl of Darnley alluded to a misunderstanding of what he had said a few days ago concerning the extension of the poor laws to Ireland, when a noble earl, not then in his place, had brought the state of that coun-chievous effect of the poor laws in making try under their lordships' consideration. What he meant was, that he should be sorry if the system of the poor laws, or rather of the abuses of the poor law system of this country, were transferred to Ireland, since they could produce only calamitous results. On the other hand, he thought it was not to be tolerated that, in a country boasting of civilization, it should be possible for individuals to die from actual want; yet he had read of a person dying in the streets of Dublin from starvation. He did not himself mean to bring the subject before their lordships, because there was a noble lord, not then in his place (lord Carberry), who had already moved for certain papers on the subject, and had pledged himself to bring it before their lordships. But if that noble lord did not, he was so impressed with the importance of the subject, that after the holidays he would call their lordships' attention to it. He knew that there were great difficulties in the way; that the poverty of the people was not to be cured by charity; that the only legitimate mode of relieving them was by finding them employment; but he thought it was worthy of their lordships' attention to consider whether or not some modified system might not be practicable. The Earl of Limerick rose to express his astonishment that any noble lord should stir a subject fraught with such mischievous consequences as a proposition provision even for the old and debilitated, had said, "It is impossible it can be otherwise, for it is quite evident, that to make such a provision is to hold out a premium to idleness and profligacy." Ireland was now suffering from an overgrown and unemployed population; but, if the English poor laws were to be introduced, and the people given to understand that all the children they produced would be provided for by the public, the increase of the population would be most alarming. The clergy certainly would profit by it, for there would be a general rush to the priest to get married. The noble lord who had suggested this subject was acquained with Ireland; but, if the information of that noble lord on the situation of the country had been as accurate as his own, he never would have started the idea. It had been said by somebody, that Ireland was used to acts of forfeiture; but he could assure their lordships that the introduction of the poor laws would be a general act of forfeiture of all property whatever. Why should the noble lord wish to throw more inflammable materials into the caldron which was now boiling, and might soon boil over? The Earl of Darnley explained, what he meant to state was, that he thought it would be worth their lordships' while to consider whether some modified provision might not be made for the poor of Ireland in certain cases. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Wednesday, February 15. USURY LAWS REPEAL BILL.] Mr. Serjeant Onslow rose to move for leave to bring in a bill to repeal the Usury Laws. After the repeated explanations he had given, upon former occasions, of his views upon this subject, it would be unpardonable were he now to occupy the time of the House in stating, he said, the reasons upon which his proposed plan was formed. He must, however, express his very sincere regret, that the House rejected his bill last session, because he was certain that, if they had allowed it to pass into a law, the late panic and its attendant distress, would have been much mitigated, and, in some of the great manufacturing districts, many difficulties would have been removed which were now severely felt. He could prove that, in many instances, more than 100 per cent had been given for money in the city of London, notwithstanding the operation of the usury laws. It was said on a former occasion, that his bill would injure the landed interest. He denied that this would be its effect; on the contrary, it would materially serve that im portant class. He concluded by moving for leave to bring in a bill "to repeal the laws which prohibit the taking of interest for money, or limit the rate thereof." Mr. Davenport renewed his opposition to the measure, and would continue to resist it so long as he had a seat in that House. He saw no necessity for giving leave, year after year, to bring in a bill, which, in a future stage, they were determined to reject. His opposition was not out of discourtesy to the learned serjeant, but to shorten the journey of this bill. His firm belief was, that nothing could be devised more mischievous for the landed interest than the proposed measure. It would necessarily disturb the whole mortgage system, affecting the property of the kingdom, and substitute a wild theory in the room of practical experience. He called upon the government to take a part in stopping the eagerness for introducing such bills, and to look to themselves in time, before a perseverance in error brought ruin upon the country. ference to their commercial and financial projects; and he trusted that they would take an opportunity either to avow or disavow it. It was not fitting that they should be absent when a question was under consideration which so materially affected the most important interests of the country. The measure must be either a very good or a very bad one; and, in either view of it, it ought to receive the most serious consideration of government. The landed interest ought not to be thus treated. In his opinion, if this bill were now passed, money upon mortgage could not be raised except at a most enormous rate. He hoped the country gentlemen would give their most strenuous opposition to a measure which, if passed, would be attended with the most injurious consequences to their interests. Mr. C. Grant said, that his right hon. friend, the President of the Board of Trade, would have attended, had he not been confined to his house by indisposition. Mr. Irving said, that the bill would not have the injurious effect which some gentlemen apprehended. On the contrary, had it been in operation during the late crisis, the sacrifices made by individuals would have been much lighter than they unfortunately had been; and the House would not have heard of such enormous sums lost in the attempt to maintain the credit of individuals. He, for one, thought that in place of the present crisis affecting the introduction of such a bill, it was rather in favour of its justice and policy. At the same time he was ready to admit that there were a variety of considerations to be well weighed before it passed into a law. He certainly was prepared to vote for bringing in of the measure, and having it amply debated; the House would not take a stand against it in that early stage. Mr. Benett observed, that it was often necessary for those who were in want of money to borrow it at an extravagant rate, purely in consequence of these usury laws. By the repeal of those laws, the security for fair and liberal dealing in the transactions of borrowing and lending would be much increased. Persons of the most honourable characters would not Mr. Bright was glad that the bill was then be deterred from coming into the thus early opposed. It was most extra-market as lenders, and in this the borrowordinary, that ministers should be absent ers would find their advantage. The from the House when such a discussion proposed measure should have his cordial was coming on. The bill could not be support. a matter of indifference to them, with re Mr. Sykes thought that his learned friend |