Colonel Roop. I think so; unless the Congress should decide against it, and it could say so.

Mr. WILLIAMSON. You stated in the beginning that the President requested you in September to begin a study of the proposed consolidation of these activities. Did you or anybody assisting you, attempt to estimate the number of personnel you could dispense with in these consolidations?

Colonel Roop. No, sir.

Mr. WILLIAMSON. Then it is speculative, like the amount of money that would be saved; you have no idea of the number of personnel that would be eliminated?

Colonel Roop. No, sir.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. With reference to consolidations within departments, to which you called attention, as shown by the paragraph on page 20, would that consolidation have to be reported to the Congress for its approval, in your judgment?

Colonel Roop. Consolidations would be reported to the Congress as a set-up in the Budget for the succeeding year, I should think. In other words, the Budget contains a schedule of personnel set-ups along organization lines to some extent. That would present a picture of any change of that sort made and any further information could, of course, be required in the hearings.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. Is it not true that consolidations or redistributions vested in the Executive, under paragraph 3 of section 403 of the economy act, are required to be reported to the Congress, just as the consolidation of two independent agencies or departments themselves?

Colonel ROOP. I don't know.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. If that be true, what authority would the President have to insert this paragraph in the Executive order?

If the President is required to report the consolidations within executive agencies for approval, just as he is required to report the consolidations of independent establishments, how could he insert that paragraph making provision for consolidations without the approval of the Congress? In other words, where is the authority of law for that paragraph?

Colonel Roop. It never occurred to me that there is not authority of law for it.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. Where is it?

Colonel Roop. If further adjustment within the activities should have to be reported to the Congress that would mean a very material delay in actually accomplishing it. If you put the major activities under one head and he has to wait until further Executive orders can be issued to get, say, the three purchasing officers from three separate activities and consolidate them, you are going to delay the effectiveness of it and practically eliminate any possibility of economy. Mr. WHITTINGTON. I am not asking for the reason; I am asking for the legal authority in view of paragraph 3 of section 403 of the economy act, which requires the consolidations of that nature to be reported just as the consolidations between departments themselves are to be reported. How could the President assume authority apparently not given to him by the economy act to insert this paragraph?

Colonel Roop. As I stated, the idea never occurred to me that there was not legal authority for that paragraph. I am not a lawyer, though; therefore I am not competent to say.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. I would be glad to have you insert the authority of the President for issuing that paragraph, if you can find it.

There are two thoroughly defined fields of work, to wit, river and harbor and flood-control work, being done by the Corps of Engineers of the Army. On page 21 of the President's message, with respect to the transfer of river and harbor work, it is stipulated that the Secretary of War, upon request of the Secretary of the Interior, may detail officers of the Corps of Engineers to work on river and harbor projects. What authority would there be for the detailing of officers for floodcontrol projects, when you make no reference to it whatever?

Colonel ROOP. I think that is an oversight.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. But it is an Executive order that we have to pass upon. Under the Executive order the Secretary of the Interior would not be required or expected to ask the Secretary of War to detail any officer for flood-control work. You take that work out of the Corps of Engineers where it always has been done, by that Executive order which you are asking us to approve or disapprove.

Colonel Roop. I think that might be interpreted that way.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. There is not very much doubt of that, is there, Colonel? Under section 407 of the economy act the President was authorized to expedite mergers and to make certain set-ups with respect to the Public Health Service and the Mexican Water and Boundary Commission without submitting those mergers for approval to Congress. I should like to have you state for the record what the President did with reference to those matters.

Colonel ROOP. I am unable to state with reference to those. He gave me no instructions with regard to them; and I have done nothing in that connection.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. You have made a transfer here in this Executive order with respect to the Public Health Service.

Colonel Roop. Not under section 407 of the economy act.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. All of these are made under section 407. Colonel Roop. I did not mean to quote it. I mean not under the section. You are referring to authorizing certain consolidations without reference to Congress.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. Would it not be difficult to report a consolidation without knowing what the President had done with respect to the authority given to merge without reporting to Congress, with particular reference to, say, the Public Health Service and the Mexican Water and Boundary Commission? How could we know what economies or efficiencies would result unless we are advised as to what the President has done relating to the authority given him in requiring him to report to the Congress? Without that background how are you in position to say what economy or efficiency might result from further consolidations?

Colonel Roop. So far as my personal knowledge is concerned, I know nothing that has been done under that particular authority. Mr. WHITTINGTON. I understood you to say that there are probably more officers in the Corps of Engineers than are now being utilized in flood-control and river and harbor works. Is that your statement?

Colonel Roop. I think my general statement is that the Corps of Engineers has more officers in proportion to other branches of the service than were needed on a purely military basis.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. If that be true, and if economy is to be promoted, would not that economy be promoted by transferring to those officers that we have additional work and utilizing their experience and services without employing additional government assistance? Colonel ROOP. That would be one way to increase the officer strength of the Army.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. Those services are available without further expenditure on the part of the Government. If we are to promote economy, would it not occur to us that we might utilize the service of these officers without employing other persons to do that work? Colonel ROOP. I did not mean to say that the number of engineer officers is in excess of those needed for both military activities and river and harbor and flood-control activities.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. What have you to say with reference to this general proposition-the Corps of Engineers is under the supervision of the Secretary of War. If detailed in considerable numbers, and you say there are many of them, to the Department of the Interior, would that not be a divided authority or divided responsibility that would really work for inefficiency and probably increase costs, by having the Corps of Engineers under two separate Departments?

Colonel ROOP. I think not. We have had some experience with detailing of not only military officers but other personnel from one department to another and it has worked out very satisfactorily. For instance, the Public Health Service is furnishing the necessary medical care and attention at the penal institutions of the United States, the appropriations for which service is made for the Department of Justice and the Department of Justice transfers the money to pay for the medical services in the penal institutions. That was considered proper and necessary, because the Department of Justice is responsible for the penal institutions and must have undivided authority in those institutions, so that the personnel of the Public Health Service is simply detailed to that duty.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. I can easily understand that, but at the same time I recall that such is not an integral part of the machinery of national defense, and I am asking particularly with respect to the divided supervision and responsibility of the Corps of Engineers, which is an important part of our activities in times of peace and war.

Colonel Roop. I do not believe there is any difficulty in that, greater than the difficulty that occurs in connection with reserve officers, and National Guard officers, who have other lines of activities and duties in time of peace but who are required to keep in touch with, and up-to-date on, military requirements and are subject to call at any time by the Secretary of War.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. But not by the Secretary of War and also by the Secretary of the Interior. There is no divided authority. Those officers are subject to the orders of the Secretary of War only.

Colonel ROOP. I did not understand the question.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. Those officers are subject only, however, to the call of the Secretary of War.

Colonel ROOP. So would the officers of the Corps of Engineers be subject to call of the Secretary of War in times of emergency, even

though detailed for civilian work such as river and harbor work in time of peace.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. In the meantime there are certain activities in connection with the national defense that the Corps of Engineers engages in, and therefore would not the divided authority there, of being detailed under the Secretary of the Interior, work against efficiency?

Colonel ROOP. I do not see that it would interfere with that emergency any more than in flood control and river and harbor works. They would perform certain military duties on those assignments, because they are still under the Secretary of War. Some of them do so.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. Transferring the work of flood control and rivers and harbors from the War Department to the Department of the Interior involves a great deal of money; but you are unable to give us an estimate of the possible saving that would result. That is a large item with respect to transfer. Can you give us some concrete savings that occur to you upon which we could generalize with respect to other savings, in connection with this particular transfer or consolidation?

Colonel Roop. I have tried already to give you in a general way the nature of the savings that I feel confident would be accomplished and it amounts to a considerable figure.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. I understood that, but I am asking for a concrete basis for that generalization in this particular consolidation. What savings occur to you now upon which we could possibly build and add to?

Colonel Roop. I do not quite know what you want in that connection.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. You are thinking about economy?
Colonel Roop. Yes.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. What concrete economies occur to you in the proposed consolidation of the river and harbor work?

Colonel ROOP. I have in mind that the river and harbor and the flood-control work now performed by the Corps of Engineers of the Army ties in very closely with some of the reclamation activities in various locations and the reclamation engineers and the engineers of the War Department have in the past and, I think, are still cooperating on certain works in that connection, gaging streams and making surveys of various kinds; whichever activity is in position to do it most conveniently and most economically getting the assignment; and the consolidation of the two services would extend and increase the efficiency of the utilization of the services of both in the locations where they happen to be. In other words, it would be possible in many cases, I should think, to have a reclamation engineer make a certain investigation or report instead of an Army engineer if the reclamation engineer were closer to the project; but if it involved actual additional expenditure of funds to be done, the Secretary of the Interior might say, "I will not spend the funds, but if it is right here I will do it.'

Mr. WHITTINGTON. Where do the river and harbor work and the reclamation work tie up?

Colonel ROOP. I do not recall any individual case, but I have heard of a number of such cases where they have overlapped and been coordinated.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. Would you give us one of those cases?
Colonel Roop. I should be glad to look it up.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. But you do not recall it at the present time?
Colonel Roop. No.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. Under section 407 the President was authorized to merge the activities of the Army and the Navy Departments except those of a purely military nature. Will you state what the President has done with respect to merging the activities of those two departments? I am asking that because there has been much discussion here with respect to consolidating those two agencies under the economy act, paragraph 407.

Colonel ROOP. I can not do it.

Mr. WILSON. Referring to questions affecting the scope of the law: If these consolidations are not stopped by the Congress within 60 days after December 9, they will become law, will they not? Colonel ROOP. I so understand.

Mr. WILSON. And then the river and harbor and the flood-control works will be under the direction of the Secretary of the Interior? Colonel RoOP. Yes.

Mr. WILLIAMSON. I have before me the economy act, also the President's Executive orders and the report of the economy_committee. On page 3, paragraph 13, of the President's message I find this:

The administrative duties, powers, and functions of the Mount Rushmore National Memorial Commission, which are transferred to the Department of the Interior, and the commission shall serve in an advisory capacity to the Secretary of the Interior.

In other words, here is an attempt to take all the powers and duties and functions of this particular commission and transfer them to the Secretary of the Interior, leaving the commission high and dry as far so any functions are concerned, except to act in an advisory capacity to the Secretary of the Interior. This particular commission is charged under the law with the construction of Mount Rushmore Memorial and toward that memorial the Congress or the Treasury contributed not to exceed $250,000, and the commission has to go on the outside and raise the remainder of the necessary funds. No money can be paid out of the Treasury without this matching process. I happen to be a member of that commission. A large part of the money collected to offset the Government's contribution has been contributed by the members of the commission themselves. The members of the commission receive no salary and have no expense account. The actual work of the commission is under two members of the commission and they are doing it without cost. If this commission is transferred to the Secretary of the Interior it will devolve upon him to collect the funds to construct this memorial.

How can you reconcile that sort of provision, and there are others, with this statutory provision in the economy act, section 406:

Whenever, in carrying out the provisions of this title, the President concludes that any executive department or agency created by statute should be abolished and the functions thereof transferred to another executive department or agency