long it would take for this reorganization to be put through and be working smoothly. Colonel Roop. I think the time would vary largely in the different elements of it; but, based upon the experience of the consolidation of the veterans' affairs, an efficient administrator of the major consolidations here would need from one to two years to have things so organized as to be accomplishing the real benefits of the consolidations. Mr. CROSS. That is what I wanted to find out. Colonel, as a result of your observations of and experience with this work, did you ever get to a point where you could say that, in your opinion, three-fourths of the present personnel or three-fourths of the personnel of the proposed set-up could do the work now being done? Did you ever get down to anything like that? Colonel Roop. No. Mr. WHITTINGTON. You stated in answer to my former inquiry that you were not sure whether or not the law would require the President to submit to Congress the matters embraced in that part of the order. I think it is fundamental for us to know whether it is necessary to present to the Congress that proposal for its approval. I again ask that you get some information on that matter, if you can, and give it to the committee. The mere transfer of a bureau or independent agency to some other place will not effect economy. That is fundamental. There must be a reorganization and an abolition. The President has recommended only three abolitions, the first of which is the abolition of the Rock Creek and Potomac Parkway Commission, to which you have referred. What saving would that effect? You have transferred its functions; what would be the saving? Colonel ROOP. I do not know what that would save; but I can say what has been appropriated for that commission. Mr. WHITTINGTON. Generally speaking, if its functions are transferred that would result in a saving of the salaries of the commission. Colonel ROOP. I do not remember whether that is a salaried commission. Mr. WHITTINGTON. The next abolition proposed is that the Employees' Compensation Commission shall be abolished and its activities transferred to the Civil Service Commission. How much saving would result there? Colonel ROOP. I have not the figures in mind. Mr. WHITTINGTON. The next abolition recommended is the abolition of the board of trustees of the National Training School for Boys. Those are the only three agencies recommended by the President for abolition; and it is fundamental that abolition would be essential in economy, is it not? Colonel ROOP. Not necessarily. Mr. WHITTINGTON. What other recommendations Colonel Roop (interposing). Not unless you are using the word "abolition" in the sense of covering the dismissal of individual employees. If you are using abolition in the sense of dismissing employees that is one of the essential elements in saving. Mr. WHITTINGTON. And there would be no authority for that until this subsequent order, to be approved by the President, is made. You just transfer for the present. Colonel Roop. I think there is always the authority to drop employees when there is no need for their services. Mr. WHITTINGTON. Then there would be no need for this Executive order, would there? Colonel RooP. The need for the Executive order is to make the original transfer and to clearly indicate the authority to readjust within the activities after the transfer is made. Mr. WHITTINGTON. The Executive order provides that the authority must be approved by the President. Colonel Roop. Yes. Mr. WHITTINGTON. As stated in the beginning, all the economies to be effected are largely administrative and they would depend upon those in charge of administration? Colonel Roop. Yes; to a large extent they will depend upon those in charge of administration, but they are not administrative in the sense that they could be administratively accomplished without the transfer and consolidation. Mr. WHITTINGTON. But that transfer and consolidation must come largely as a result of reorganization within the departments, to be approved by the President, and those will take one or two years. Now these Executive orders will not become effective until 60 days after December 9, 1932; so that there would be no real possibility and certainly but little probability of anything being done before the 4th of March. Is that not true? Colonel RoOP. Yes. Mr. WHITTINGTON. And after that date there would be another Executive, as we know, and he would be governed largely by the recommendations of his subordinates in the issuance of these Executive orders referred to in the paragraph having to do with consolidations within the departments. Would not the incoming Executive be able to better effect economy and efficiency if he has the results of the exprience of those who have made investigations for him in connection with these proposed changes? Colonel Roop. I do not understand your question. Mr. WHITTINGTON. Referring to this paragraph that has been inserted and which may require the approval of Congress and the President for the consolidations within the departments, inasmuch as nothing can be done under the present administration, would not real efficiency and economy be promoted by the Executive who is to approve those having the benefit of the recommendations of those who are in harmony with his own views rather than by a complicated proposal here where no recommendations can be made in time for the present President to consolidate activities? Colonel ROOP. If I understand the question right, you are asking whether the present President should not either himself or through his representatives express his opinion as to the detailed organization that should be set up; is that correct? Mr. WHITTINGTON. Yes. Colonel Roop. That might be of some assistance to the succeeding administration. Mr. WHITTINGTON. In other words, by the approval of these Executive orders we are merely abolishing these three agencies to which I have referred and any economy or saving in the future must come from Executive orders to be issued in the future and they may or may not have to be approved by the Congress, as you now understand? Colonel ROOP. Yes. Mr. WHITTINGTON. Therefore, we would hardly be getting anywhere, because 60 days will have expired before these changes would go into effect. Mr. WILLIAMSON. Turning to page 47 of the President's message, concerning consolidations in the Department of Commerce, I am thoroughly familiar with the activities mentioned. It seems to me that in those groups there is possible a saving of millions of dollars. That order refers to the manner of making inspections and reports. In addition to that improvement there will be another tremendous advantage, namely, in conveniencing the public by saving its time. Bring about those changes and then, instead of a ship-owner having to go to, say, a dozen different agencies in transacting his business, he would be taken care of at one place by one agency before sailing. Obviously, it would be helpful if he could go to one office and get all necessary information. Under those changes the saving to the public would be enormous, to say nothing of the saving to the Government. I think that is good. I do not see how anybody may detail the savings in advance. If we consolidate these activities mentioned on page 46 of the President's message, we can reduce the personnel and the equipment required, including boats and a number of other things. Mr. WHITTINGTON. Would that not have to be followed by other executive orders? Colonel ROOP. The consolidation would have to be perfected or effected by those who follow. Mr. SCHAFER. You will have an interesting time trying to reduce personnel, with all the hungry Democrats storming the Capitol. The CHAIRMAN. The incoming President will find more than 50 Government agencies, and the administrative heads of those agencies will change; will that cause a condition that might be most embarrassing to an incoming administration? Colonel Roop. It might be. The CHAIRMAN. It is evident at the outset that this proposal is not going to work very smoothly. There is another thought in my mind-the President has been in power for three years and nine months, and these [indicating] are the only specific recommendations he has made to the Congress. We have a new President coming in. I have no knowledge whatsoever of his views in regard to these matters. He might have views with reference to consolidations and reorganizations of these agencies. The platforms of both political parties pledge a reorganization of Government agencies. Do you not think it would be advisable for the one who is going to be in control of the Government to make the recommendations rather than to take the views of the outgoing President? Colonel ROOP. I can give you my personal answer on that. The CHAIRMAN. I should like to have it, if you care to advance it. Colonel Roop. Personally, I think that would be wise. The CHAIRMAN. I thank you very much, Colonel. Mr. WILLIAMSON. It seems to be implied here that the President should have submitted these recommendations before, because he has been in power practically four years. I as well as other members of the committee know that the President has repeatedly asked the Congress to give him the authority to make these consolidations, but that authority was forthcoming only at the last session of the Congress. He acted on that authority. The CHAIRMAN. The President has power and he is supposed to make recommendations to the Congress on the state of the Union, and he can make recommendations to the Congress at any time he may think advisable. Mr. WILLIAMSON. He asked for authority to make these consolidations and we did not give it to him before last session. Mr. SCHAFER. With reference to the question propounded by the chairman, is it not a fact that this matter should be given consideration in connection with postponing any action on the proposal to consolidate that it will take more than a year for the new politicians to find their ways around the Federal departments and to learn just what is what? Because a man may have been a king bee in the Tammany Hall organization does not mean that he will know the rounds here in Washington. The CHAIRMAN. They are all statesmen, not politicians. Mr. SCHAFER. Just because one is a good Tammany henchman, and he knew well all the operations of the Tammany government in New York City, is no accurate sign that he is going to easily assimilate all the Federal functions when he is appointed to a new position here; and, therefore, unless you start some consolidations now, you are going to have another two or three years before there are any actual consolidations. Mr. WHITTINGTON. Would that not be offset by whatever statesman that comes here from Milwaukee? The CHAIRMAN. Colonel Roop, we thank you kindly for your interesting statement, and if there is nothing further, let us adjourn. (Thereupon, at 12.05 o'clock p. m., Wednesday, December 14, 1932, the committee adjourned to meet at the call of the chairman.) PRESIDENT'S MESSAGE ON CONSOLIDATION OF GOVERN MENT AGENCIES TUESDAY, DECEMBER 20, 1932 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN The committee this day met at 10.40 o'clock a. m., Hon. John J. Cochran (chairman) presiding, for future consideration of the message from the President of the United States transmitting a message to group, coordinate, and consolidate executive and administrative agencies of the Government, as nearly as may be, according to major purposes, which message was submitted to the Congress on December 9, 1932, and is House Document 493, Seventy-second Congress, second session. STATEMENT OF HON. EWIN L. DAVIS, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF TENNESSEE AND CHAIRMAN OF THE HOUSE COMMITTEE ON MERCHANT MARINE, RADIO, AND FISHERIES The CHAIRMAN. The committee is favored this morning by the presence of Judge Davis, chairman of the House Committee on Merchant Marine, Radio, and Fisheries, who desires to discuss with the committee the resolution passed by his committee in reference to some parts of the message of the President relative to grouping and consolidating of Government agencies. Judge Davis, we shall be glad to hear from you now. I understand Judge Davis speaks for the entire committee. Mr. DAVIS. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, on the 15th instant the Committee on Merchant Marine, Radio, and Fisheries adopted the following motion: That it be declared the sense of this committee that the transfer ordered by the President of the United States of the Merchant Fleet Corporation to the Department of Commerce is unwise, ineffective, and should not be put into operation, and that the chairman of the committee be authorized to appear before the Committee on Expenditures in the Executive Departments and do what he can to prevent it. The CHAIRMAN. Was there any serious objection to that motion in your cominittee? Mr. DAVIS. No. We discussed the matter at length and only one member present voted against the resolution. Both parties were well represented at the meeting and, as I have stated, only one member registered a vote against it. 27 |