Doctor MARVIN. Well, you give us the education department, and you organize your press department, and we will go right ahead. Mr. BLACK. I don't want a press department any more than I want an education department.

Doctor MARVIN. I don't see the analogy at all.

Mr. BLACK. Well, I do. You start in with your remarks with the need of intensive educational facilities in order to develop the proper intelligence, average intelligence, at least, among the people in a free democracy, for the sake of democracy so that it may get the best form of government. In other words, under a monarchy, you only have to have one real worth-while intelligence, and that is the boss at the head of it. In a democracy you need to spread this intelligence as much as possible. In order to do that you say let us have a department of education for research and everything else. I say to you that more important than that is to give this existing intelligence information on which to base public intelligence, which is the ruling instrument there should be in a free democracy. And you don't want a press department.

Doctor MARVIN. I didn't say I didn't want it.

Mr. BLACK. Well, do you want it?

Doctor MARVIN. I didn't say that. I am not a technician in matters of the press.

Mr. SEARS. I think that is academic, anyway.

Mr. BLACK. No; it isn't academic. I think it goes right to the

root.

Mr. SEARS. We have adopted the schools, but haven't adopted the press.

Mr. BLACK. And we have left the schools alone.

Mr. SEARS. Only recognizing, of course, the freedom of the press. Mr. BLACK. And we have recognized the freedom of localities to educate the children, and the education of the child at the mother's knee, and all that. And this is a departure from all that.

Mr. SEARS. Oh, no; it isn't a departure from that.

Doctor MARVIN. This is not a departure from that. Let me answer you further.

Mr. BLACK. Well, you have gone further than any of them.
Doctor MARVIN. That is a challenge that you lay down to me.
Mr. BLACK. Well, go ahead.

Doctor MARVIN. My answer to you is this, that if I have to let my little boy, 22 years old to-day, go out and sit in a kindergarten, I am going to want to know that he is getting just as good training as is possible to give him, and I want to know that he is to have as good a background and, if possible, a better background than we could give him in our own home.

Mr. BLACK. Yes.

Doctor MARVIN. And I want to see the dissemination of scientific knowledge, with an educational institution back of it, that will give it that certain authority which is necessary, so that the people will see that it is theirs.

Mr. BLACK. You want to say something about it. You retain certain rights all the time, don't you?

Doctor MARVIN. Yes; one would have to. I don't want this public education department to take any more authority in the conduct of the public schools of any one of the States than the Depart

ment of Commerce takes in the direction of commerce, or that the Department of Agriculture takes in the direction of agriculture.

Mr. BLACK. Well, there is fault to be found with both departments, but that doesn't necessarily kill them off.

Doctor MARVIN. That is my answer. I want to say there is coming a confusion in higher education to-day, because of the many different agencies, particularly such as were read here to you to-day. I want to give you one experience. When I went to the University of Arizona it had three laboratories in hydraulics-one in the physics department, one in the engineering department, and one in the agr cultural department. You talk about bureaucracy and domination. Right here it comes in. Neither of the three laboratories were working because they didn't have the materials. When we learned what materials were needed, we found out by a consolidation of these three laboratories we could make one laboratory that would be operative, and there was a need for that laboratory for exactly seven students. We took approximately $2,000 worth of materials, part of which had been paid for out of the Smith-Lever money, through the Department of Agriculture. We took those and assigned the materials that had been used-didn't change them at all, but assigned them to another laboratory-took our physics laboratory and brought it over and reassigned the time. The materials were all there, and yet the Department of Agriculture came out with a statement of condemnation and practically went so far as to declare that the president of the University of Arizona had misappropriated Federal funds in the transfer of this $2,000 worth of equipment from one room to another building on the same campus.

Mr. BLACK. Let me ask you

Doctor MARVIN. There is your Federal domination from the background. There is the kind of confusion you are getting into with these men who are specialists in agriculture, who come out and try to dominate the whole background of the entire scheme of things, so far as education is concerned throughout your States. Why? Because there is not the right kind of control over these men to-day in matters of education, and they are trying to control their bureaucracy through their finances.

Mr. BLACK. On the other hand, you didn't have to do any extensive research in bringing that about.

Doctor MARVIN. I had the complete authority to do it through my board of trustees. They had approved the moving of the materials and knew the whole story. Yet the State authorities were not in a position to manage the funds which had been allocated to them through the Department of Agriculture under that act.

Mr. LOWREY. Do I understand you are arguing in favor of the control?

Doctor MARVIN. No; at this particular time I am arguing against men who do not know really what education is, and who are spending money on terms of education.

The CHAIRMAN. What you mean, Doctor, is that there is a complete overlapping of various departments of the Federal Government engaged in education?

Doctor MARVIN. An overlapping of activities that need to be correlated.

The CHAIRMAN. They overlap so much that no one knows what the other is doing?

Doctor MARVIN. That is right.

Mr. BLACK. And you would have been better off if the Government had had nothing to do with that, but the State had controlled the expenditure of the funds?

Doctor MARVIN. Absolutely.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. I confess again that I may be obtuse, but in what way is this bill we are considering going to bring about this unification?

Doctor MARVIN. How is the department of education going to bring about this unification?

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. This legislation.

Doctor MARVIN. The answer is this: This bill gives us the first step toward correlation of all the educational work of the country through Federal activities; and secondly, it provides for activities in research and dissemination of knowledge regarding the best educational practices throughout the country.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. But these various activities remain scattered in the various departments.

Doctor MARVIN. My own personal view, frankly, is that if we had our own way about this we would correlate all the higher branches of education to-day.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. I congratulate you for having the courage to say what you think ought to be done.

Mr. BLACK. Would you also add the Federal aid to that?
Doctor MARVIN. To this bill?

Mr. BLACK. Yes.

Doctor MARVIN. No; I would do away with Federal aid.
Mr. BLACK. You are absolutely against it?

Doctor MARVIN. Yes.

Mr. BLACK. Why?

Doctor MARVIN. There is no need for it. It is taking money out of one pocket and putting it in another and creating a possibility of bureaucratic government that we have no right to use in this country. The CHAIRMAN. Don't you think, Doctor, that the very enactment of this bill, creating a department of education, would bring out facts that would prevent Federal aid and gradually eliminate it?

Doctor MARVIN. My answer is that it would ultimately.
The CHAIRMAN. That is just what I believe.

Doctor MARVIN. That is my feeling in the matter. It is nothing but an academic judgment, but that is the way I feel about it.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. After all, will you not have to have the Government, through its legislative body, say that certain of these activities must come under a common head? We have two presidential secretaries now administering affairs in Alaska, and 11 different bureaus functioning in that connection. The mere fact that you create a secretaryship isn't going to accomplish correlation. Doctor MARVIN. I have already answered that, so far as my personal feeling is concerned. Good business would only say one thing.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. Well, I again congratulate you on saying what ought to be done by Congress.

Doctor MARVIN. I am not saying that in reference to Congress. I am saying it about centralization.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. Well, it must come through legislation, if you get it.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, if there are no further questions, and you are through, we thank you, and we will give a chance to some of these gentlemen who may have to leave early.

Doctor DAVIDSON. Mr. Chairman, the next speaker will be Mr. Joy Elmer Morgan, editor of the Journal of the National Education Association, the official organ of this association.

STATEMENT OF JOY ELMER MORGAN, EDITOR THE JOURNAL OF THE NATIONAL EDUCATION ASSOCIATION, WASHINGTON, D. C.

Mr. MORGAN. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I have one or two statements that I have been asked to present here from other organizations, whose officers could not be present. The first is from Mr. R. L. Cooley, president of the American Vocational Association. That association has drawn together in one great organization of some 3,000 members several other organizations, so that it is representative of vocational education throughout this country, and is in close touch with the great economic and business interests of the country that are interested in the products of the schools from a vocational standpoint. The president wires:

The American Vocational Association is squarely behind you in favor of the bill for the creation of the national department of education. The bill (CurtisReed-S. 1584 and H. R. 7) as drawn is satisfactory to us and we urge its support.

I have another statement from the president of the American Library Association, Mr. Carl B. Roden, the librarian of the Chicago Public Library. The American Library Association draws together the library interests in the country as represented by the libraries and the librarians, some seven or eight thousand very fine workers, maintaining an institution largely supported from public taxation. The American Library Association has considered this question, as I personally know, at many successive meetings and has taken a stand for it. It has not considered this particular bill, but it has considered the idea of a department of education. They say:

I am very glad to reaffirm most emphatically the support and indorsement on the part of the American Library Association of this bill now before Congress to establish a national department of education with a secretary in the Cabinet. The association and the 10,000 librarians of public, reference, and university libraries comprising its membership have long favored such a measure. We are convinced that the important cause of public education in America in all its various aspects and its constant and rapid growth would be immensely advanced and strengthened by the creation of a department of education.

I have another statement that represents the stand of the Educational Press Association of America, made up of the educational journals, having a total circulation of more than 1,000,000 copies among the teachers and laymen interested in education in this country. This statement says:

A Federal department of education with a secretary in the President's Cabinet has become an imperative necessity if education is to be economically and efficiently guided throughout America. The project for the creation of such a department has had the active support of leading educational and lay organizations for seven years. The Educational Press Association urges its members to continue their work on behalf of this measure until a department of education has been created.

Now, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, the nature of my work as editor of the Journal of the National Education Association, with wide correspondence and wide travel, with constant handling of thousands of manuscripts that reflect the educational needs of this country reveals to me the need for leadership and research such as a department of education would provide that is perfectly tremendous, and I am in a position to know that the school people in the Nation are overwhelmingly for this department.

Now, when the question comes before one, one of the first things to do, naturally, is to consult the people who know most about it and who work it out. The school people of this country, some million teachers, organized in State and National groups, most of them, in one form or another, have gone on record over and over again for this measure, and I have here a table, which with the permission of the committee, I would like to insert, not taking the time to read the details, which shows the growth of the National Education Association, and of the various State associations during the period from 1920, when these organizations began working actively on this bill, from a membership of 24,000 in 1920, to 181,000 plus now, and I would like to have the committee realize that during that time that organization has met twice each year, and has drawn together in different sections of the United States, ranging from Washington to Dallas and Seattle to Boston, and in between, so that the people who might be interested have had a chance to come there, hear careful discussion and analysis of its provisions. The bill has been printed in full in the journal of the National Education Association in its various forms. It has been considered so far, perhaps, as any measure can be considered in the brief time it has been before the committee, and this body's opinion that has been formed is a solid, intelligent, increasing body of opinion that will not decrease, but rather increase until this department is finally created.

Now, there is nothing new to this day in a difference of opinion over educational policy in America. It is the whole story of the development of our democracy. The first great question that had to be answered about this was, "Shall we have free schools supported by public taxation?" For a long time that question was debated back and forth by people, perfectly honest and perfectly sincere, who thought the very foundations might be cut out from under this Republic if we should do such a radical thing as to take money from all the people through taxes and spend it on the education of the children. But looking back over our national history, we wonder how the Republic could have grown at all without the development of the free, tax-supported school.

A little later there was a battle in an effort to answer this question, Shall there be in each State a State department of education? That was not fought in any particular year nor over a particular decade, but over a period of years; at different times in State after State, the battle lines were drawn, and we have that heroic struggle of the pioneers, like Horace Mann in Massachusetts, like Henry Barnard in Rhode Island and Connecticut, and others in other States in this Nation, where efforts were made to create a State leadership in education, and where, on the other side, efforts were made to break down and destroy and prevent that leadership. But gradually it has developed, and we have a noble record of what Barnard did in