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Mr. DOUGLASS. Whose work is it?

Doctor MANN. Of course, the immediate work of the day is the individual teacher's and the individual pupil's.

Mr. DOUGLASS. Yes, but isn't the teacher responsible-hasn't the teacher some responsiblity toward development in that line?

Doctor MANN. Absolutely, but the teacher is ignorant of how to proceed.

Mr. Douglass. Why is the particular teacher ignorant in the case we are now discussing? What is the cause of his ignorance?

Doctor Mann. There are no facilities for properly instructing him, and that there are no facilities for bringing together the experiments and experiences of a large number of different teachers on this particular point, and comparing them, and bringing to the teachers the good experiments and the bad experiments, so as to help them out.

Mr. DOUGLASS. Don't the teachers in the country now get together for the purpose of discussing just such things?

Doctor MANN. Yes, sir, they do; but the National Education Association, for example, which is the largest teachers' organization, has only one-fifth of the teachers of the country as its members.

Mr. DOUGLASS. And do you mean to tell me that no valuable results have been attained along those lines?

Doctor MANN. No, No.
Mr. DOUGLASS. Have any results been attained?

Doctor Mann. Oh, yes. The one thing that is producing a little coherence in American education today is this volunteer organization of teachers into these groups. They are doing it, however, in a haphazard way.

Mr. DOUGLASS. That is just what I believe. And there is no reason why they shouldn't continue to do such coherent work.

Doctor MANN. Absolutely.

Mr. Douglass. But you feel they need the assistance of the Government?

Doctor MANN. Precisely.
Mr. DOUGLASS. To do better work?

Doctor Mann. Yes, sir. A question was raised here a minute ago as to the need of a United States Chamber of Commerce and Department of Commerce

Mr. Douglass. Well, we are not talking about the development of business now; we are talking about, as I said before, the development of the individual character of the student body.

Doctor MANN. But the conditions surrounding the getting out of effective work in both fields are practically the same.

Mr. DOUGLASS. If each State did its duty in the supervision of education, do you think it would be necessary to establish the department of education?

Doctor Mann. Yes, sir.
Mr. DOUGLASS. Why?

Doctor Mann. Because each State is a limited unit, and the problem of devoting adequate means of developing the individual is so intricate that the States go off on tangents and do not produce anywhere near as good results as they do by comparing results.

Mr. DOUGLASS. Is there any other known way now of getting together the results each State produces?

Doctor Mann. There are known ways, but not adequate funds.
Mr. Douglas. The knowledge exists?
Doctor Mann. No.
Mr. DOUGLASS. But the facts are there, aren't they?
Doctor MANN. Some of them, but not enough of them are there.
Mr. DOUGLSAS. Well, you can not develop facts, can you?
Doctor MANN. No.
Mr. DOUGLASS. You can find them?
Doctor Mann. Find them; observe them.

Mr. DOUGLASs. But there are certain facts in existence about this matter of correlative education?

Doctor MANN. Yes.

Mr. Douglass. And you think the States are not fulfilling their duty in gathering these facts and publishing them; is that it?

Doctor MANN. They are not.
Mr. DOUGLASS. What is to prevent them?

Doctor Mann. Let me give you a case, and one which is a very burning case at the present time. The secondary schools of the country have broken up

Mr. DOUGLASS. Well, would you put it that way-broken up? You have described the change that has been made to the junior and senior high schools and junior college. You consider that a breaking up of the system, do you? Doctor MANN. That is a reorganization of the system. Mr. DOUGLASS. That is a better expression, isn't it?

Doctor Mann. They have reorganized the system, and these junior high schools have come into existence since the war, and the junior college the same way. The junior college is going at a tremendous rate. A year ago a survey showed some 400, and this year there are 700.

Mr. DOUGLASB. A great many educators do not approve of them?

Doctor MANN. Exactly, and a great many do. There is the real issue.

Mr. DOUGLASS. But it is a divided question. It is a moot question.

Doctor MANN. We need information.
Mr. DOUGLASS. Haven't you got the information now?
Doctor Mann. No, sir.

Mr. DOUGLASS. You are familiar with the conditions and you have got that information now without Goernment aid.

Doctor MANN. No, sir.

Mr. DOUGLASS. Well, you are talking about it as if you knew about it. Whatever information you have, of course, you have already developed somewhere.

Doctor MANN. Certainly.

Mr. Douglass. You didn't need the assistance of the Government to develop that information up to now, did you?

Doctor Mann. But the information now doesn't enable me to suggest any solution or any way out.

Mr. Douglass. You feel the Government has got to come in and help on that one question?

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Doctor Mann. On that one question we have got to have either the help of the Government, or we have got to have an adequate study of that thing.

Mr. Douglass. And the educational powers of our several States are not sufficient to tackle that problem of the junior high school?

Doctor Mann. No, sir.

Mr. BLACK. If you had the information from Government channels, what could you do?

Doctor MANN. Distribute it.
Mr. BLACK. What effect would it have?

Doctor Mann. It will supply these groups of teachers who get together with a sufficiently broad foundation of facts upon which they can discuss their problems not in a local, one State way, but with a knowledge of how the thing is going in the whole country.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, do not all these school laboratories and school systems have to run their experiments over a certain period of time?

Doctor Mann. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Before they can arrive at a correct conclusion; isn't that true?

Doctor MANN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Then, if you arrived at a conclusion with regard to the junior high schools and you found, after all, they were not beneficial in the long run, you would save this country countless millions of dollars in the construction of buildings, to say nothing of the teaching force?

Doctor. Mann. Absolutely.

The CHAIRMAN. And that is only one of the hundreds of ramifications you will find in this situation?

Doctor Mann. Yes, sir. I can give you a case, Mr. Douglass. The question is one of financial management. You say, Can't you teachers get that information, that we need to properly budget and keep financial accounts, and so on?” Our organization two years ago made a study of the financing of public education in four States—New York, Illinois, Iowa, and California. That study cost $200,000 to make, in those four States, and it has been useful in those four States, but not anywhere near as useful as if we had similar information for 48 States.

Mr. Douglass. What would be the expense of publishing that information for the benefit of the entire country through the newspapers or some advertising agency? What would be the whole expense of promulgating to the Nation that particular information?

Doctor MANN. Well, the expense of 13 volumes of reports isn't much for those four States, but we need it for the other States.

Mr. DOUGLASS. Those four reports will be available in libraries all over the country, will they not?

Doctor Mann. They are. There is one other point I want to mention in that connection. There arises a very fundamental point of policy in regard to education. Is education going to depend for adequate study of these fundamental questions upon private endowments?

Mr. Douglass. Don't you think private endowment has helped this matter of research?

Doctor MANN. It has; yes; and it is helping.

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Mr. Douglass. And to what extent do you think it is helping financially?

Doctor Mann. It is helping to the extent-well, it has been helping our organization to the extent of $150,000 a year. But do you want the surveys made by private interests?

Mr. Douglass. If you are looking for facts. Whether the surveys are made by the Government or private interests, you can't change facts you find. The CHAIRMAN. You can change the conclusion, can't you, Doctor? Doctor MANN. Absolutely. Mr. Douglass. That is just it, the conclusion that your secretary of education might reach might be detrimental to the country. That is one of the reasons we are opposed to this proposition.

Doctor MANN. You spoke this morning about the question of comparing the American schoolboy with the German.

Mr. Douglass. I asked the question whether the American schoolboy was not as patriotic, as good a citizen as the German student.

Doctor Mann. We have a case on that, published recently, a report of the Carnegie Foundation, on the subject of the relative efficiency of the American high schools and the German gymnasium.

Mr. Douglass. I wasn't talking about efficiency. I talked about good citizenship.

Doctor Mann. Well, if it is a question of whether the American high school turns out as good citizens as the German gymnasium

Mr. Douglass. I will put the question to you that way. Doesn't the American high school, as constituted to-day, turn out comparatively as good a citizen as the German school of the same caliber?

Doctor Mann. I will say that the American high school turns out a better American citizen.

Mr. Douglass. And that is pretty good proof that our system of education is all right without Government contribution to it.

Mr. SEARS. I would like to hear you say something about scholastic equipment.

Doctor Mann. Let me finish this. The report says the American high school doesn't do as good a job as the German gymnasium, because it doesn't turn out men of as high scholarship ability.

Mr. Douglass. It probably doesn't send out as good chemists, or things of that kind, but the American high school turns out boys of good character.

Doctor Mann. Absolutely.

Mr. Douglass. That is what I am interested in, rather than pure scientific knowledge.

Doctor Mann. The point is this; that report was published by private interests, is the judgment of one man, and points the American high school teachers to the wrong ideal, namely, scholarship.

Mr. Douglass. Naturally, if we had a department of education they wouldn't report anything against American citizenship.

Doctor Mann. The fact is, if you are going to rely on private interests only for this information, you are liable to get that kind of a report.

Mr. Douglass. I am hoping to rely on your National Education Association and our own native institutions, and I think they should have spirit enough to carry on this work with some financial aid from private interests.

I should think the National

Education Association should help us and give us the benefit of their advice and their experience, rather than ask the Government to go into a proposition of this kind that is going to upset, in the end, the whole educational system of the Nation.

Doctor Mann. That last statement is rather strong. Mr. DOUGLASS. Well, that is my view of this bill, the future effect of it.

Doctor Mann. The thing that is upsetting the educational system is the 50-50 subsidy.

Mr. DOUGLASS. If you put it into the control of one department, as will eventually happen, the control of education, and standardize education, then you can, by standardized education, control the whole educative system of the country, and that is the danger inherent in this bill.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you agree with that, Doctor?
Doctor Mann. No, sir.

Mr. DOUGLASS. You don't agree that that is the danger, but that is the way many citizens look at it, and I want you to get our point.

Doctor Mann. Well, I have gotten your point of view pretty well, for a number of years, and I want to say that it is absolutely impossible to standardize American education.

Mr. DOUGLASS. Well, the Germans standardized it through just such a condition as this. The CHAIRMAN. No, no. Nothing like it. Nothing like this at

, all. You are working in a matter that is entirely foreign to this.

Mr. Douglass. This as a so-called German, Prussianizing bill, in the end.

Mr. SEARS. Doctor, has there been any improvement in American schools in the last 25 years? Doctor MANN. An enormous improvement, particularly since the

Education has gone at tremendous speed since the war. It is going now very fast.

Mr. SEARS. You think the children are getting better instruction. And are they getting better results?

Doctor MANN. Absolutely. Education is going fast.

Mr. BLACK. It might be really better not to fool with it through this bill, then.

Doctor Mann. If you could see the number of questions that come into my office as to whether to choose this type of work or that type of work, where a little information would help somebody decide the question, you would be in favor of getting this information for them.

Mr. Black. Particularly I would be, if your organization is going out of business.

Doctor Mann. It is not going out of business just yet. But the problem is so enormous that if all the income of all the foundations were turned into this research business you wouldn't get the information that is needed, and the information as guided by private interests is spotty, it depends upon the interests of the individuals that take care of it. It doesn't take a national coherent point of view, and we need an information service that is under public control, that will take the proper perspective on the whole problem and give us the data that we need.

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