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Mr. BLACK. Your office is in Washington?
Doctor Mann. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Are there any more questions of the Doctor?

Mr. Black. I think it would be a good thing if you could give us some of those inquiries that are submitted to your office in this respect.

Doctor MANN. Yes; I would be very glad to show you the sort of questions the people ask. Doctor Judd is going to be here to-morrow

to state the situation in the Middle States. He is the representative of the North-Central Association of Schools and Colleges, which handles this information gathered amongst the 20 States around Chicago. That association has been on the job for 15 or 20 years. He is going to tell you some of the specific difficulties they have there.

Mr. Black. Have they made any inquires of you where they have tried out the Bureau of Education and couldn't get the information they wanted?

Doctor MANN. Yes.
Mr. BLACK. Is there much of that?

Doctor Mann. Yes; there is a great deal, and the immediate question in the Central States and in the Southern States-in fact, four associations are coming here to-morrow, associations of colleges and secondary schools, to show why they are stuck on this question of the secondary school, and its interrelation with the lower schools and the upper schools in their own territories, because of the rapid changes now going on, and why they are incompetent to deal with the question adequately themselves.

Mr. BLACK. Aren't you afraid to have this whole thing go into the national political field?

Doctor MANN. Absolutely not. Some one spoke here about the principle of decentralized responsibility. It is coming into operation in such an effective way, not only in educational matters, but in business matters, that that principle is developing, and it is coming into operation in the Federal Government in its relation to the States. I am perfectly content that in education there is not the slightest danger of any Federal educational officer ever exercising control or standardizing or anything of that sort.

The CHAIRMAN. Poctor, isn't this a fact; if you had the facilities to furnish people with the real facts covering the entire country, then each State becomes self-sufficient?

Doctor MANN. Absolutely.

The CHAIRMAN. Because it is moving along definite and accurate lines?

Doctor MANN. That is the best stimulus.

The CHAIRMAN. And still each State preserves its complete individuality and works out its own process, but saves itself an enormous economic loss and all the wastefulness of following errors rather than facts?

Doctor MANN. Absolutely. Mr. BLACK. Could you get up a list of the pending difficulties in education that might be cured by sufficient information, showing approximately what it would cost on each item?

Doctor MANN. Certainly I would be very glad to give you some of the major issues.

Mr. Black. Yes, the major issues. That is what I mean.

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Doctor MANN. We have a list of things people try to get us to do that we can not get the money to do, and we never could get the money to do adequately. The Federal Government could command service and cooperation that we private individuals never could; all that is needed is the proper coordination so that the service fits together, in order to get the information from the different States and in comparable termis.

Mr. BLACK. By the way, how does the Carnegie Foundation feel about this bill?

Doctor Mann. They opposed the old bill. They are against the 50-50 subsidy bill. I haven't heard an expression from them on this particular bill.

Mr. BLACK. Neither have I. That is the reason I asked you.

Doctor MANN. But I should like to see the experiment made, as stated. I would like to see a particular subject set up in the Bureau of Education to prove the kinds of information that would be gathered in such a study and let you see what the problem is, that is; how it works out in practice. Suppose the Bureau of Education should make this study of the secondary school situation. This bill I suggested to you calls for $500,000 for two years' study. That is reasonable for two years’ study, as we know by experience. If one study could be made to let you see the kinds of information the Federal Government could bring together and prepare that the States can not get separately, and just how that would help this junior college and junior high school situation, I think it would be a very practical way of trying out the thing. Let us give it a demonstration.

The CHAIRMAN. There is one other question I want to ask you along the same line. Have you had any occasion to look into the cost accounting of public schools, the various public-school systems?

Doctor Mann. Well, we made studies in four States.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you find this: That it would vary as much as 10 to 20 per cent in the administration costs in the various cities?

Doctor Mann. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Showing the enormous amount of waste that is going on?

Doctor Mann. We have more experience in the college field, where it runs as high as 50 per cent.

The CHAIRMAN. I don't like to mention cities, but there are two cities that varied all the way from 10 to 30 per cent in the administration costs alone.

Doctor Mann. Absolutely.

Mr. Davidson. Mr. Chairman, I am now going to ask that we step outside the ranks for a minute and hear from Miss Clara Noyes, representing the American Nurses' Association.

STATEMENT OF MISS CLARA NOYES, AMERICAN NURSES'

ASSOCIATION, WASHINGTON, D. C.

Miss Noyes. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I have been asked by the president of the American Nurses' Association to present this very brief statement of the position of that organization in relation to this bill.

The American Nurses' Association, which is composed of 48 State associations, and represents a membership of 75,000 nurses, has been from the outset vitally interested in the movement to coordinate educational activities which now exist in the Federal Government by the creation of a national department of education.

This matter has been brought to the attention of the membership at conventions, through correspondence and through its official organ, the American Journal of Nursing. This reaches many thousands of nurse readers. The American Nurses' Association has advocated the measure, believing that it is a forward step quite in keeping with the spirit of the American Government.

Furthermore, it believes that through the results of research and distribution of findings, which may be conducted under such a department, all educational work, including schools of nursing, will ultimately be greatly benefited.

I might mention incidentally that I am a member of the board of directors of the American Nurses' Association and was for four years president, previous to the régime of the present president, who submits the foregoing statement.

The CHAIRMAN. At this point I would like to insert in the record a number of resolutions indorsing the creation of a Federal department of education with a secretary in the President's Cabinet, adopted by the following educational organizations:

Resolutions by the National Education Association from 1918–1927.

Resolutions by the department of superintendence of the National Education Association from 1918-1928.

And by the following State educational associations:
Alabama Education Association.
Arizona State Educational Association.
Arkansas Education Asociation.
Colorado Education Association.
Florida Education Association.
Georgia Education Association.
Illinois State Teachers Association.
Indiana State Teachers Association.
Kansas State Teachers Association.
Kentucky Education Association.
Louisiana Teachers Association.
Maine Teachers Association.
Minnesota Education Association.
Missouri State Teachers Association.
Nebraska State Teachers Association.
Nevada State Teachers Association.
New Mexico Education Association.
North Carolina Education Association.
North Dakot a Education Association.
Ohio State Teachers Association.
Oregon State Teachers Association.
Pennsylvania State Education Association.
South Dakota Teachers Association.
Tennessee Public School Officers Association.
Texas State Teachers Association.
Utah Education Association.
Virginia Education Association.
West Virginia State Education Association.
Washington Education Association.
Wisconsin Teachers Association.
Wyoming State Teachers Association.

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(Resolutions adopted by the following sections of State educational associations:) Southern section of California Teachers Association. Northern section of California Teachers Association. Chicago division of the Illinois State Teachers Association, Southeast division of the Minnesota Education Association.

outh Central Missouri eachers Associa on. Northwest Missouri Teachers Association. Southwest Missouri Teachers Association. Southeast Missouri Teachers Association. Central Missouri Teachers Association. Southeastern Ohio Teachers Association.

Northeastern convention district of the Pennsylvania State Education Association.

(The following organizations have also adopted resolutions favoring the bill:)

San Francisco Regional Conference, Department of Classroom Teachers of the National Education Association.

Missouri State School Administrative Association.
Elementary School Principals Association, Kansas City, Mo.
Mahaska County Teachers Association, Oskaloosa, Iowa.
Aroostook County Teachers Association, Houlton, Me.
Steuben County School-Masters Association, Corning, N. Y.
Eddy County Teachers Association, New Rockford, N. Dak.
Aberdeen local unit of the National Education Association, Aberdeen, S. Dak.
Harris County Teachers Association, Texas.
Board of education of the Wasatch County school district, Heber, Utah.
Weber County Teachers Association, Ogden, Utah.
Norfolk Education Association, Norfolk, Va.

(Resolutions of the National Education Association, presented at Pittsburgh, Pa., 1918)

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The association favors the establishment of a national university, the creation of a national department of education under the direction of a secretary of education.

(Resolution of the National Education Association, Milwaukee, Wis., 1919)

This association has urged for years that education should be given just recognition by the Federal Government, and that a department of education should be established. The war has so emphasized the importance of education from a national standpoint that the necessity of the immediate consideration of this question is universally recognized.

Moreover, a commission on the emergency in education, appointed by this association one year ago, acting under the instruction of the association, prepared a bill creating a department of education with a secretary in the President's Cabinet, and authorizing the appropriation of $100,000,000 to encourage the States in the promotion of education, particularly in the removal of illiteracy, the Americanization of immigrants, physical and health education, teacher preparation, and the equalizing of educational opportunities.

This association, through its commission and with the cooperation of other great national organizations, secured the introduction of this bill in the Sixty-fifth Congress and more recently its introduction in the Sixty-sixth Congress in a carefully revised and perfected form, known as the Smith-Towner bill, H. R. 7 and S. 1017; therefore, this association gives its hearty and unqualified indorsement to the Smith-Towner bill, H. R. 7 and S. 1017, now before the Sixty-sixth Congress, and instructs the official staff of this association to use all honorable means to secure its passage.

(Resolution of the National Education Association, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1920)

We are convinced that adequate preparation of teachers, and the elevation of standards of selection, can be achieved only through an acceptance of the principle that the wealth of the Nation, as a whole, can legitimately and may justifiably, be drawn upon to equalize opportunities for the education of all the Nation's children. We reaffirm our faith in this principle, and urge the immediate passage of the Smith-Towner bill by which Federal participation in the support of public education is provided and which, at the same time preserves the autonomy of the State in the management of its schools. We condemn the efforts of the enemies of the public schools to defeat this measure, particularly by stigmatizing it as a measure which involves national control of education. Such control is not only clearly unconstitutional, but it is out of harmony with the spirit of American institutions. This association pledges itself as unreservedly to do its utmost to thwart any movement or proposal that would centralize control of the public schools, as it does to its support of the measure.

We call attention once more to the singularly valuable features of the SmithTowner bill: To the program that it sets for the reduction of adult illiteracy, for the Americanization of the immigrant population, for the vast extension of health education, for the adequate preparation of teachers, and for the creation of a department of education under a secretary who shall have a seat in the President's Cabinet. We reiterate the fact that each item of this program strikes at an outstanding weakness of American education which the experience of the war set in high relief. We call the people's attention to the fact that these emphasized problems are still with us, and that unaided state and and local action has failed in any appreciable measure even to begin their solution on a nation-wide basis. The Smith-Towner bill is the only measure that has been proposed to cope with all of these problems. That measure now languishes in Congress, primarily because of the opposition of a minority of the people whose leaders are traditionally opposed to public education. We seriously and earnestly commend to the American people the program proposed in the Smith-Towner bill, framed with the interests of America's children and America's free schools solely in mind.

[Resolution of the National Education Association, Des Moines, Iowa, 1921)

We renew our unqualified indorsement of a department of education with a secretary in the President's Cabinet, and Federal aid to encourage the States in the removal of illiteracy, the Americanization of the foreign-born, the development of a program of physical education and health service, the training of teachers, and the equalization of educational opportunity as embodied in the Towner-Sterling bill now pending in the Sixty-seventh Congress. We are gratified to note the development of a nation-wide sentiment in support of the principles embodied in this bill. We unite with the friends of public education throughout our country in urging that Congress give prompt recognition to the primary importance of education in relation to the Nation's welfare. We earnestly protest against the submerging of education in any other department of the Government or the subordination of education to any other national interest.

(Resolution of the National Education Association at Boston, Mass., 1922] We reaffirm our sincere, devoted, and unqualified support of Federal aid and Federal recognition of education without Federal interference in any way with State and local control, as they are embodied in the Towner-Sterling bill now pending in the Sixty-seventh Congress.

(Resolution of the National Education Association, San Francisco, Calif., 1923]

We reaffirm our sincere, devoted, and unqualified support of Federal aid and Federal recognition for public education without Federal interference in any way with State and local control as embodied in the Towner-Sterling bill. We believe that national leadership in education and the efficient administration of the educational activities of the Federal Government demand the creation of a department of education with a secretary in the Cabinet of the President. We know that the aid furnished to the States and Territories by the Federal Government has been a most important feature in the development of their school systems. The deficiencies now existing in our system of public education will be most effectively and rapidly removed by providing Federal aid for the removal of illiteracy, for the Americanization of the foreign-born, for the development of a more adequate program of healthy service, for the training of teachers, and for the equalization of educational opportunity as provided in the Towner-Sterling bill.

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