We have recently witnessed several changes in our industries which have thrown large numbers out of employment, such as the conversion of cigar manufacture from hand to machine operation and the closing of large machine shops. Some of these adjustments have been made through our part-time and evening schools, but much more could have been done to relieve the situation through retraining in shortunit vocational courses had funds been available for research, promotion, and the establishment of a number of additional courses.

Delaware's program in retail selling, which has the indorsement of a large group of business men, has been held up for three years because of a lack of funds for the development of what is considered "something new." No instruction has yet been offered for commercial workers in our small towns and cities because our State and Federal aid is insufficient to expand the program to these communities. There is a distinct need for day and evening commercial courses of a vocational character in Wilmington and with additional Federal aid such courses could be immediately established, and standards would be set up to insure occupationally experienced teachers for these subjects. Commercial courses in the high schools, intended to train specifically for vocational competency, would be put on a vocational basis.

Delaware is now relying upon the direct assistance from the Federal Board staff for the development of foremanship service. Additional Federal funds would permit the State to give more attention to this very important phase of vocational education. There is also much to be done in the field of research, service to industrial plants in the development of training programs, and service to employed wage earners, all of which could be brought about or improvements made through the benefits derived from the Capper-Reed vocational bill.

Mr. MILLER. At this time I will ask the committee to hear Mr. H. G. Noyes, coordinator for adult education in trade and industry for the State of Wisconsin, who will make a short statement and then file. some documentary evidence.

STATEMENT OF H. G. NOYES, COORDINATOR FOR ADULT EDUCATION IN TRADE AND INDUSTRY, STATE OF WISCONSIN

Mr. NOYES. I won't take but just a minute, because I appreciate the fact that you folks have given perhaps an extended length of time. I would like to say just two or three words in order that you may have some idea of the background of experience I have had when I make the few statements which I wish to make.

I would like to say I have been affiliated with the pulp and paper industry for quite a while, until I came to the State of Wisconsin, where I took charge of the development work and trade extension work, first starting in pulp and paper trades and industries. I served for some time as one of those in charge of the work of the Oxford Paper Co., in Rumford, Me., so I feel I have a fairly comprehensive view of the outlook on this whole problem from the standpoint of industry.

I would like to show you how we conceive the problem in the trade industrial field. There seem to be three levels which must be reached if the maximum job is to be done which will assist employees and employers to get the most out of the vocational program which is

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contemplated and is being offered in this line of work. First, the trade finding level or trade exploratory, as it is called, is in the juniorhigh work, generally coming between the years of 14 and 15, where the boy is put through a period of training in a specific trade or industry to learn the good and bad points of the trade and industrial phases and to bring out the aptitudes which he may or may not have for entrance into that sort of trade. We believe that even if the answer is negative, meaning that he should not go in, we have fulfilled our work with the individual just as much as though the answer is affirmative. I would like to put that over, that we feel a negative answer terminates our field.

Mr. DOUGLASS. Then your responsibility is done and, if he is not fit for the work, he has to go out and find something else?

Mr. NOYES. Yes. Then after the 16-year period, we take him into trade preparatory, in the field which we feel, and the boy and his parents feel, should be his ultimate field after he goes into industry on the whole-time basis. Then finally the trade extension level which is given over to educational work which is supplementary to his daily employment. We base our work, both from the standpoint of industry and from the standpoint of the public schools, on the view that acquired knowledge is a part of production and that certain operations can only be taught in the industry itself. To give you an illustration, it would not be practical to set up a paper machine, for instance, in the school house, because it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars and, even when you are trained to run that one, you will have difficulty in running another one. In other words there are specific operations for specific jobs, departments, and so forth, which are taught on the job and other information, supplementary to that, is taught in the school.

In our work, we divide it into management and working force; then the management we divide into major and minor executives, the major executives, roughly speaking, being from the superintendent up, and the minor executives being the foremen. The working force is divided into skilled, semiskilled, and unskilled labor, and in the crafts or trades, as contrasted to industry, are the journeymen and apprentices. We classify our jobs as production jobs, maintenance jobs, technical and service jobs. The production people, who have to do with methods and processes, we classify as maintenance people, special repair, maintenance of machinery and equipment, and the technical jobs having to do with the technical trade units. The service jobs are those people dealing with the purchasing, marketing, and so forth.

I find that true of the State of Wisconsin and I found previous to going to Wisconsin, that the same thing was true in the State of Maine. Also, from my connections, with other States in New England where I lived before I was in Maine. I might say I lived for a short time in Massachusetts, also. The building trades, the metal trades, and other trades which can not be classified as above, such as barbering, baking, and the like we feel can be served by apprenticeship. A course in mechanics under an indenture to an apprenticeship, is under the vocational industrial commission, cooperating with the vocational schools. For the State of Wisconsin we have 13 circuits, 11 of which are for the building trades in pulmbing, electricity, painting and decorating, in which a group of cities, four or five in number, jointly

employ what we call an itinerant teacher, who goes into each town one day of the week, conducting apprenticeship classes one afternoon, four hours each week, and classes for journeymen in the evening. We feel that is one thing that must be done if we are going to do the best type of vocational work for the building trades in the smaller cities.

I might say that I do not work in Milwaukee. They have a problem there of their own but so large as to require a complete staff. I have the work in the other parts. If you are interested in that, I will leave this paper with the committee, which will save a lot of time. (The paper above referred to is as follows:)

Trade and industry program, Wisconsin vocational schools-Cities employing itinerant instructors, 1930

Mr. NOYES. We also go into the industries in pulp and paper and have done quite a lot of work in that particular industry in the State of Wisconsin. We have, in cooperation with 24 firms in 13 cities, organized 2 circuits there which deal with pulp and paper. We have projected for next year leather, rubber, woodworking, and the public service; so that our program in that line is just touched upon, and I would like to leave this paper with you, which will give that.

(The paper above referred to is as follows:)

FIRMS COOPERATING IN PULP AND PAPER EDUCATIONAL PROGRAM, 1926-1930

Marinette.-M. & M. Paper Co.; Victory Bag Co.

Green Bay.-Northern Paper Mills; Hoberg Fiber & Paper Co.; Fort Howard Paper Co.

Kaukauna.-Thilmany Pulp & Paper Co.; Outagamie Paper Co.; Union Bag & Paper Corporation; Combined Locks Paper Co.

Kimberly.-Kimberly-Clark Corporation.

Appleton.-Fox River Paper Co.; Interlake Pulp & Paper Co.; Patten Paper Co.; Riverside Paper Corporation.

Menasha.-Menasha Printing & Carton Co.; Gilbert Paper Co.

Neenah.-Kimberly-Clark Corporation.
Rhinelander.-Rhinelander Paper Co.

Wausau.-Marathon Paper Mills.
Mosinee.-Mosinee Paper Mills.

Stevens Point.-Consolidated Water Power & Paper Co.; Whiting-Ployer Paper Co.

Eau Claire.-Dells Paper & Pulp Co.

Wisconsin Rapids.-Consolidated Water Power & Paper Co.; NekoosaEdwards Paper Co.

Mr. SCHAFER. With respect to that leather program, unless we get a tariff to keep the foreign leather from coming in, you will be wasting money; because the tanneries are practically all closed now. Mr. NOYES. I would like to say in industries we classified by raw materials. That takes in shoes, clothes, and so forth, rather than the tanning industry itself.

Mr. SCHAFER. There are hundreds and thousands of skilled leather workers walking the streets to-day because of the excessive importation of cheap foreign leather products produced at as low as $2 a week labor cost.

Mr. NOYES. I am glad to get that information. The field of foremanship training is taken care of by the itinerant circuit and, so as not to take up any more of your time, this paper briefly describes it. (The paper above referred to is as follows:)

FIRMS COOPERATING IN FOREMEN TRAINING

APPLETON

1920-30. Appleton Coated Paper Co.

1928-29. Appleton Coated Paper Co., Chas. S. Boyd, manager. 1928-29. Interlake Pulp & Paper Co., C. K. Boyer, mill manager. 1929-30. Tuttle Press, Don Purdy, superintendent.

1928-29. Fox River Paper Co. (2), John Stevens, jr., treasurer.

1929-30. Appleton Toy & Furniture Co.

1929-30. Interlake Pulp & Paper Co.

1928-29. Riverside Paper Corporation, Paul Scallan, general superintendent..

COMBINED LOCKS

1928-29. Combined Locks Paper Co., P. A. Smith, manager.

1930.

CUDAHY

Cudahy Bros., M. Cudahy, president.
Geo. J. Meyer Mfg. Co., G. J. Meyer, president.

EAU CLAIRE

1928-29. Dells paper & Pulp Co., E. O'Brien, general superintendent. 1928-29. Gillette Rubber Co., R. W. Hutchens, general manager. 1929. Northern States Power Co., C. W. Dow, assistant manager.

FOND DU LAC

1928-29. Giddings & Lewis Machine Tool Co., W. E. Rutz, superintendent. 1929-30. Damrow Bros., A. E. Damrow, production manager.

1929-30. Wisconsin Power & Light Co.

1928-29. Wisconsin Power & Light Co., F. Whitely, district manager.

GREEN BAY

1928-29. Fort Howard Paper Co., A. C. Cofrin, general manager.
1928-29. Hoberg Paper & Fibre Co., M. J. Ketter, general superintendent.
1929. Northern Paper Mills, W. J. Peacock, personnel manager.

KAUKAUNA

1928-29. Thilmany Pulp & Paper Co., Sulphate Mill, R. M. Radsch, general superintendent.

1928-29. Thilmany Pulp & Paper Co., paper mill, W. F. Ashe, employment manager.

1929.

1929.

1930.

Manitowoc industries, A. L. Nimtz, director vocational school.
National Tinsel Co., W. C. Protz, general manager.

Manitowoc Shipbuilding Corporation.

1929-30. Welch Manufacturing Co.

MARINETTE

1929. Victory Bag & Paper Co.

1928-29. Marinette & Menominee Paper Co.

MENASHA

1929. Gilbert Paper Co., George Barnes, secretary.

MOSINEE

1928-29. Mosinee Paper Mills, N. S. Stone, manager.

NEENEAH

1928-29. Hardwood Products Co., Neal Spoor, secretary. 1928-29. Kimberly-Clark Corporation.

RACINE

1929. 1929.

Western Printing & Lithographing Co.

RHINELANDER

Wisconsin Veneer Co., F. A. Marshall, manager. Rhinelander Paper Co., F. Becker, manager. 1929. Rhineland Refrigerator Co., R. A. Reik, manager.

SHEBOYGAN

1929-30. Northern Furniture Co., A. Kaaschock, manager. 1929-30. Northfield Co., A. F. Henckel, superintendent. 1929-30. Garton Toy Co., C. E. Garton, general manager. 1930. Phoenix Chair Co., A. C. Hahan, manager.

STEVENS POINT

1928-29. Whiting-Plover Paper Co.

1928-29. Consolidated Water Power & Paper Co., Fred C. Labrot, manager