STATEMENT OF MR. EDGAR WALLACE, LEGISLATIVE REPRESENTATIVE, AMERICAN FEDERATION OF LABOR, WASHINGTON, D. C.

Mr. WALLACE. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, the American Federation of Labor is on record as favorable to a department of education. We are bound to recognize the fact that at present we have no department of education and when we do get a department of education, we feel that if the Vocational Board should go under that department that the other interests that are closely concerned, should be considered by that department. In other words, that the present Vocational Education Board as constituted recognizes the interests of labor through the Department of Labor, of commerce through the Department of Commerce, and of agriculture in vocational education.

We feel that as at present constituted the Vocational Education Board is doing a splendid work. We would ask for more adequate representation of labor, but we would be very much concerned if this board now should go under a bureau and be a part of a department. We do not feel that a bureau could cooperate with the other interested departments as well as a complete department.

So we would ask that the Vocational Education Board be continued in its present way. It is in its experimental stage. It has not developed as far as it may develop, but considering the time it has been in action we believe that it has done splendid work and is going along in the right direction; that is, considering the interests of the various parties; labor, because it is necessary that no one calling should be overcrowded; commerce, inasmuch as commerce should have adequate help and men educated to give that help, and agriculture along the same line.

So we commend the present board as now constituted; and even if we had a department of education we would consider that the interests aforementioned should be represented or should be consulted with by that department.

I believe that is all, unless there are some questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you call your next witness, Mr. Wright?

Mr. WRIGHT. The next witness will be Mr. John Linn, representing Mr. John Purcell, assistant to the vice president of the Sante Fe Railway, Chicago, Ill.

STATEMENT OF MR. JOHN H. LINN, REPRESENTING MR. JOHN PURCELL, ASSISTANT TO THE VICE PRESIDENT, SANTA FE RAILWAY, CHICAGO, ILL.

Mr. LINN. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, during the past year the Department of Education issued a bulletin which showed that of the pupils entering the fifth grade of the public schools, 2 per cent finished college. I think the figures show that 14 per cent entered our high schools, and 7 per cent completed a high-school course; that 34 per cent completed the work of the eighth grade in common schools. Those figures, I presume, refer to boys and girls jointly.

While I do not have the figures, it would be my opinion that the percentage of boys finishing the eighth grade would be much less

than that.

The per cent of all is one out of three that enter the fifth grade finished common school.

Whether those boys-it is the boys in whom I am mostly interested-dropped out through mistakes in the curriculum, through other errors due to conditions of the public-school system, or through the personnel of the teachers that particular boy happened to meet, is immaterial. The fact is that those boys did not even finish the work of our common schools, and they can not be made to go to those common schools.

Many industrial concerns have felt the need of bringing the schools to the boys, and I think this committee ought to know something of the work of the corporation with which I am concerned is now engaged in in connection with vocational training, to at least offset the opinion you might have gathered from the first speaker's quotation, which was very good, about the Mud-Sill people.

So, with your permission, I will read a statement prepared by Mr. Purcell, assistant to the vice president of the Santa Fe Railroad, the man who has charge of the mechanical operation of the business. It will only take a few moments.

(The statement referred to is as follows:)

STATEMENT SUBMITTED BY JOHN PURCELL, ASSISTANT TO VICE PRESIDENT, THE ATCHISON, TOPEKA & SANTA FE RAILWAY SYSTEM, CHICAGO, ILL.

The following statement is submitted for insertion in the record and consideration by the committee, in reference to proposed legislation affecting the administration of vocational education and civilian rehabilitation as now carried on by the Federal Board for Vocational Education.

So firmly does the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Railway believe in the value of vocational education that for more than 16 years it has maintained, at its own expense, a modern up-to-date apprentice-training system. The training of apprentices really began about 30 years ago, but the educational system as now conducted was not inaugurated until the year 1907. Since that date it has been carried on continuously with even increasing results.

The purpose of the apprenticeship system is to train mechanics for the company's shops. This it has done, more than 700 of these graduates being now in the service of the company. This number will be greatly increased in the next few years. These men are not only first class, skilled, all-around mechanics, but are men familiar with the company's methods and practices, its aims and policies, thoroughly trained for the particular work they are called upon to perform.

At the present time 2,000 young men between the ages of 16 and 22 are receiving training as apprentices in the various shops of this company, learning one of the following trades: Machinist, boilermaker, blacksmith, sheet-metal worker, electrician, and carman.

The plan of training given these apprentices consists of both school and shop instruction. The apprentices work in the shops side by side with other shop employes on the regular work of the shop. There is an apprentice shop instructor for about every 20 or 25 apprentices, or one for each man with ability to lead and guide young men. He is held responsible for seeing that each apprentice in his charge receives experience and thorough instruction on all the work of his trade. He starts the boy out on a simple machine or class of work, gradually advancing him to more difficult work. He instructs each apprentice as to the care and operation of each machine or class of work, teaching him proper methods of performing his work and seeing that he understands what he is making or repairing and the purpose for which it is to be used. Nothing is left undone to see that each apprentice at some time during his four-year apprenticeship receives full variety of experience on all the work of his trade.

In addition to the instruction given apprentices while they are at work in the shop, apprentice schools have been established by the company at each point where apprentices are employed. The schoolrooms are located in the shop yards, away from the noise of the shop but sufficiently near for convenient accessibility. They are built and equipped and maintained at company expense.

All supplies including cabinets, tables, models, drawing instrument, paper, pencils, etc., being furnished by the company for the free use of apprentices. The apprentices are required to attend these schools two 2-hour periods each week, or a total of 208 hours each year. schools are mechanical and free-hand drawing, shop sketching, shop mathematics, The principal subjects taught in these the elements of mechanics, company and Government rules as to inspection, care and maintenance of equipment, and other subjects relating definitely to the trade the apprentice is learning. The courses are all practical, all drawings being made from models or the actual objects themselves, each lesson being based upon some part of a locomotive or car or shop tool. The school instructors are in general men with a technical education who have also served an apprenticeship. The majority of the shop and school instructors are graduates of the company's own apprentice courses. uates of these apprentice courses are now holding supervisory or staff positions on In fact, some two hundred and fifty gradthis road. Not only is all cost of the school and shop instruction borne by the railway but the apprentices themselves are paid their regular rate for time attending the apprentice schools.

Deserving helpers in the shop are given an opportunity to master a trade by serving a three-year helper apprenticeship. These men are permitted to attend the apprentice schools if they so desire, but are not paid for time attending school. They are given the same shop instruction as the regular apprentices.

A number of technical college graduates are employed each year and given a three-year practical course to give them the pactical experience without which their technical training is of little value in railway work.

A supervisor of apprentices, reporting to the chief mechanical officer, is in charge of the apprentice department, supervising the work of the instructors at all points on the system. He maintains a central office in which all lesson sheets are prepared and visits each school frequently, securing the cooperation of local shop officers. limited suport and backing of the management. The entire plan of apprentice training is given the un

The company also has its air brake instructors and thoroughly equipped instruction car for the instruction of its enginemen. Also men in other staff positions to give instruction and training in matters pertaining to various phases of the care and maintenance of equipment.

This company has cooperated with the Federal board in giving training to a number of disabled veterans, giving these men the advantages of the shop instruction given apprentices, and permitting them to attend the company's apprentice schools.

Sixteen years' experience in the education and training of apprentices has convinced us this is the only means of preparing skilled mechanics for our shops and round houses. This company would no sooner think of doing without its apprentice schools than it would of doing without its powerhouses or tool rooms. Men are more important than materials. The cost of the instruction is consid

ered not an expense but rather as an investment or asset.

The experience of this road has been such that we feel that any plan of vocational training to be effective must be thoroughly practical. Not only must the courses be practical but the instructors in charge must have practical experience in the work in which they are engaged. Any legislation relative to vocational education should have for its object the improvement and expansion rather than the restriction of the work already done by the Federal board.

Mr. HOLADAY. Are these apprentices paid while they are taking this work?

Mr. LINN. Yes; they get the regular pay provided for by the Labor Board; regular apprentices start with 29 cents per hour, and they are advanced to 54 cents per hour. They get an increase every six months. They work in the shop and are paid also while they attend school.

Mr. TUCKER. Have you the amount of money paid out by the Santa Fe Railroad in this work?

Mr. LINN. I have not. However, I will say that there are 73 instructors engaged in that work. The salaries of those instructors are about $248 a month. There are 73 of those; then there is a

supervisor, etc.

Mr. TUCKER. Then there are other expenses in connection with that?

Mr. LINN. Yes.

Mr. TUCKER. You say there are about 36 schools?

Mr. LINN. Yes; located at various places.

Mr. TUCKER. And about 2,000 apprentices?

Mr. LINN. About 2,000 apprentices is what we have now, in round numbers.

Mr. TUCKER. You do not care anything about the Government helping you?

Mr. LINN. Gentlemen, I did not appear before this committeeMr. TUCKER (interposing). You are doing this work mighty well, I see. Is it not true that this same work is done by other great roads in the country?

Mr. LINN. A great many of them; yes, sir. Mr. Chairman, I did not appear before this committee in behalf of nor in opposition to any specific legislation that you may at this time be considering or that you may later consider. But I did appear before you to express the hope that no legislation be enacted which would in any way restrict us in the work which we are now doing.

Having been in public-school work for about 12 years before doing this work, I might also say to you that personally I would not feel safe in trusting any of this work to a group of school-teachers of the kind that I was 12 years ago.

We have been very well pleased with the cooperation of the Federal board. We have been in close touch with it from the date of its organization and we are very well pleased with its work as it is now conducted.

Mr. HOLADAY. Can you explain in a practical manner what this national board has done to help you?

Mr. LINN. So far as we are concerned, they have not helped our road as much as they have other roads who have not gone into it as extensively as we have.

With us, we have our own department.

In other railroads some

of them do not have, but depend on the funds that they may get to carry on work similar to what we are doing. So far as our road is concerned, the main help that we get is through the contracts we have with the Federal board.

Mr. TUCKER. It is a perfectly natural thing to suppose that anybody having certain work to do that is necessary for them are going to do it for themselves, but would be perfectly willing to receive the funds from somebody else.

Mr. LINN. Well, of course, we have never asked for any of the funds, and we do not want any outside management on the detail of our work.

Mr. TUCKER. Can you give me the names of some of the roads who are doing this same work?

Mr. LINN. The New York Central is doing work very much similar

to ours.

Mr. TUCKER. The Pennnsylvania?

Mr. LINN. Yes; the Pennsylvania has; not quite so much as they did some time ago.

There is this difference between their work and ours. Their school work is just as good as any other, but I do not think those roads go so far in the practical work in the shop.

I remember visiting a shop in Altoona; and they had one shop instructor. He would go around in a general way and look after the work, but could not give actual instruction.

Our plans differ from theirs in having a shop instructor for every 25 boys. He has nothing else to do except to show the boy how to run the machine and to do the work, and see that he is changed from one thing to another as he completes the first.

Mr. TUCKER. What work is Mr. Kruttschnitt doing now?

Mr. LINN. He is with the Southern Pacific. They have a system very much similar to ours.

Mr. TUCKER. And the Northern Pacific?

Mr. LINN. I am not sure of the Northern Pacific. I rather think they do.

The CHAIRMAN. Does not the Western Electric Co. have something of the same kind?

Mr. LINN. Yes; in fact, nearly all the corporations have. It has been my pleasure to attend a great many annual conventions. I think there are probably at least 200 members of the old National Association of Corporation Schools who pay annual dues for membership.

Mr. HOLADAY. I suppose that your company, figuring from the cold standpoint of dollars and cents, figures that this system pays?

Mr. LINN. I think they do; yes, sir. I, for the same reason, think that this work that the Federal board is doing for the same reason pays the Federal Government.

Mr. TUCKER. Pays the Federal Government?

Mr. LINN. Pays the constituents of the Federal Government; I do not mean the Government itself, but the people the Government represents.

Mr. LowREY. You mean it is a paying governmental investment? Mr. LINN. Absolutely, very much so. I do not think you can spend too much money on this. As Mr. Purcell says in this statement, we do not consider it as an expense, but an investment.

I remember one day one official objected to putting another ininstructor on the system. Mr. Purcell wrote back to this official and said that it was not an expense, but an investment.

Mr. WRIGHT. There is no Federal money that goes to any private organizations. There are, however, a great many instances over the country where public schools are carrying on classes for those who are employed in these various industries. For example, no railroad company can receive any Federal money for any part of its training program, but a local public school can set up these classes under public control and receive the aid.

Mr. LINN. I agree with Mr. Wright on that, but through the cooperation with the State, certain railroads profit by the funds the Federal Government gives.

Mr. TUCKER. I suppose if the railroads needed it, provision would be made for it, would it not?

Mr. WRIGHT. That is a matter for Congress to determine. Personally I would not favor public grants to private agencies for educational purposes. Education is a public responsibility and the funds should be kept under public control.

Mr. TUCKER. Why are they excluded?