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tion to vacant bishoprics, and certain other eccle. But with regard to the Church of Engsiastical preferments ; which will more properly land, the Queen was the supreme head be considered when we come to treat of the clergy. I shall only here observe that this is now done in of the Church, and was declared by the consequence of the statute 25 Henry VIII., c. 26 Henry VIII. to have annexed to 20. As head of the Church, the King is likewise the Imperial Crown “all jurisdictions, the dernier ressort in all ecclesiastical causes ; an authorities, and commodities” to the appeal lying ultimately to him in Chancery from said dignity appertaining. A question the sentence of every ecclesiastical Judge.'

between a Bishop and a clergyman of There was no other explanation of the the Church of England must be decided consequences of the Sovereign's headship by the Sovereign as the last and ultiof the Church but the three given in mate tribunal. Now he came to another Blackstone. By the supremacy of the challenge, which had been given him Crown he (Dr. Ball) apprehended was by his right hon. Friend (Mr. Sullivan), meant headship or governorship, because in regard to the 10th clause. Now, he the word supremacy was an expression had before said to his right hon. Friend taken out of the words “supreme head” that probably his meaning was as he in the Act of Henry VIII., and Black- stated, but he (Dr. Ball) thought the stone said that supremacy gave three word “bishopric” was wide enough to things - jurisdiction over Convocation, prevent the nomination of any person as the nomination to vacant bishoprics, and Bishop. the last resort in ecclesiastical causes. THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR He knew not from what book the hon. and IRELAND (Mr. SULLIVAN) said, the learned Member for Richmond quoted, right hon. Gentleman had no Amendbut he imagined that it was Hooker. [Sir ment on the Paper to the clause on the ROUNDELL PALMER was understood to point raised. say from Burn's Ecclesiastical Law.] DR. BALL said, he had an AmendNow, he denied that the Queen was su- ment, not in his own name, but in that preme over the Presbyterians. ["Oh!”] of the right hon. Member for BuckingHe used the term supreme » in the hamshire. By their Amendments, they sense of headship, and he said the Queen put off the prohibition until January, was not the head either of the Roman 1872. It was necessary to provide for Catholic or the Presbyterian Churches; the intermediate period. There was one and when the hon. and learned Mem- clause proposed for that purpose, enber opposite said she was supreme abling Her Majesty to appoint Bishops, in Scotland he forgot that William and another Amendment would authorize III. himself passed an Act of Parlia- the constitution of an Episcopate in synod ment declaring that that supremacy was after the intermediate period had exat an end in Scotland, and it was in that pired. His right hon. Friend the MemAct declared that the supremacy of the ber for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli) Crown was inconsistent with the rights had given notice of an Amendment to of the Presbyterian Church of Scotland. substitute 1872 for 1871. The effect of That was the first Act of William and that Amendment would be that till the Mary. The position of the Roman Ca- 1st of January, 1872, the Bishops in tholic Church would illustrate what he Ireland might recommend to Her Mameant. The Queen could not dictate to a jesty a person for appointment as Bishop. Roman Catholic Bishop or interfere with In that way the date of the Bill's comhim in the management of his Church. ing into operation would be put back, If a difference occurred between a Roman and they proposed to add a subsequent Catholic priest and his Bishop, the mat- clause, enabling the Church to meet ing ter must come before the Queen's courts synod and pass resolutions for its goas connected with property, not as con- vernment. Therefore, they first took nected with doctrine. If a Roman Ca- away objection by confining the clause tholic priest was condemned for preach- to a limited period, and then they would ing heretical doctrine, could he appeal establish a power to constitute an Episfrom his Bishop to the Queen's courts ? copate. Not at all. But if it happened that pro- SIR ROUNDELL PALMER said, he perty was involved, then the Court tried thought the principle involved in this as an incidental circumstance whether discussion one of such extreme importhe had conformed or not to the rules of ance that they were justified in availthe Church of which he was a member. ing themselves of the privilege they pos

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sessed in Committee of speaking more | Queen's ecclesiastical supremacy. But than once.

He had no quarrel with the when the Church was disestablished, passages from Blackstone quoted by the they got rid of those things out of which right hon. Gentleman, and had nothing this special supremacy arose ; and to to say to them, excepting this — that maintain the name after they had got rid Blackstone said this supremacy was a of the thing could answer no useful purmatter that depended upon divinity ra- pose, religious or temporal. The suprether than on law, and he (Sir Roundell macy of the Crown would apply to the Palmer) thought Blackstone a greater members of a disestablished Church as authority on law than on divinity. If well as to the members of an established they wanted to see how the matter was Church, only that in the one case it would regarded in divinity, they could not do not be exercised in the same manner with better than look to one of the Thirty-nine regard to Synods, Bishops, and the like, Articles—namely, the thirty-seventh— with which it was not expedient that the that Article said

Queen should interfere unless the Church “ The Queen's Majesty hath the chief power in

had a legal establishment. this Realm of England and other her Dominions,

MR. GRAVES said, he wished to recall unto whom the chief Government of all Estates the House from the legal and technical of this Realm, whether they be Ecclesiastical or argument into which they had wandered Civil, in all causes doth appertain, and is not, nor to the common-sense issue involved in ought to be, subject to any foreign Jurisdiction.

the clause. As he understood it, the “Where we attribute to the Queen's Majesty the chief Government, by which Titles we under- question was whether an integral portion stand the minds of some slanderous folks to be of this kingdom was for the future to be offended, we give not to our Princes the minister- without an established religion. He was ing either of God's Word, or of the Sacraments, not surprised that there should have been but that only prerogative which we see to have been given always to all godly Princes in holy

some confusion about this question, conScriptures by God himseli — that is, that they sidering that it was only within the last should rule all states and degrees committed to year that the idea of disestablishment their charge by God, whether they be Ecclesiasti: had been originated in that House. Nas, cal or Temporal, and restrain with the civil sword

more, he would say that though the the stubborn and evil-doers."

Irish Church question had been beThere was no mysticism, no transcen- fore the country for years, no statesman dentalism in that. There was no idea had ever ventured to breath the word of a proper spiritual as distinguished "disestablishment" in connection with from a proper temporal jurisdiction. It it until the right hon. Gentleman last was an undivided temporal supremacy year proposed to disestablish and disenover all estates and degrees of men in the dow. He (Mr. Graves) had not been realm. And then with regard to the title long in that House, but he remembered of supreme head, they did not stand on well when this subject was first brought titles; but, if he did not greatly mistake, under the consideration of the House the particular part of the Henry VIII. by the hon. Member for Kilkenny Sir legislation, as to that title, was not re- John Gray), and the tones of moderation enacted under Elizabeth, in order to in which that hon. Gentleman asked for avoid that very confusion of ideas which inquiry; but he never used the word the Article he had quoted was intended " disestablishment,” nor in the debate to exclude. And with great deference to that followed was the word to be found. his right hon. Friend the Member for He believed he was correct in stating Cambridge University (Mr. Walpole) he that the hon. Gentleman was acting as (Sir Roundell Palmer) had dealt with the organ of an association formed within both the affirmative and the negative a very few years for the redress of supremacy. The negative related to the Irish wrongs. He held in his hands

. jurisdiction of foreign princes; the af- the rules of the National Association of firmative asserted the home jurisdiction Ireland, and the first rule set forth the over all estates of men in the civil courts principles upon which the association and in the ecclesiastical courts. When was founded. The objects were, first, you had an Established Church it did not to secure by law to occupiers of land in necessarily, but it did naturally follow Ireland compensation for all valuable that the Queen should have a special improvements; secondly, the disendowprerogative with reference to that Church, ment of the Irish Protestant Churchand then it was called by the name of the the House would mark there was no



parts of

mention there of disestablishment—and terized in an especial manner by natural the application of its revenues to pur- piety, yet theirs was the country which poses of national utility, saving all vested had been chosen to make the experirights. The third object was freedom of ment of a State without a religion. He education for the several denominations firmly believed that when the heat of and classes in Ireland. With regard this struggle had passed away, Ireland, to the question of supremacy, he was in- smarting under the charge that she alone clined to agree with the hon. and learned was godless, and finding that she alone Member for Richmond (Sir Roundell was without that which gave weight and Palmer) that, looking to the interest of dignity to a nation, would demand nathe Church, if they suffered it to be dis- tional religious equality in the shape of established they should not desire to the disestablishment of the Churches in obliterate this clause; but, at present, they England and Scotland, or that the reliwere not prepared to admit that, looking gion of the majority should be made the to the interest of the State, the Church religion of the State in Ireland. He did should be disestablished. When the not envy the statesman who would Church, within the last month or two, have to meet that demand, after the asked permission to defend itself in Con- arguments which, night after night, vocation what answer did it receive; have been used for the disestablishment Such an answer as would not be given of the Church in Ireland; nor did he to a criminal placed on his trial. Its envy the present Prime Minister the voice was absolutely stifled by refusing bitter reproaches that would be cast to it the power of meeting. That in- upon him through the length and breadth cident was a strong illustration of supre- of the land when it would clearly be macy. No doubt State reasons dic- seen that he had been the means of doing tated the course that was pursued, but away with what he (Mr. Graves) looked it showed that supremacy was now prac- upon as one of the most glorious — tically exercised; and might not State if not the most glorious reasons of equal weight again require an the Constitution of this country. [“ Oh, exercise of such authority? The con- oh!”] He was brought up to believe stituency he represented—perhaps the it so; and until last year no person in largest in the country (Liverpool) —had that House doubted it. He, however, considered the question, and declared trusted that such a violation of one of that disendowment, a mere matter of our most cherished institutions might, at pounds, shillings, and pence, was only an least, not be productive of the evil coninterference with the rights of pro- sequences that he feared would result perty, but that on no consideration if the clause of the Bill before the Comshould the Church be severed from the mittee were permitted to pass. State in any portion of the United MR. CANDLISH said, he should have Kingdom. In no class had he found this inferred from the speech of the hon. opinion so strongly held as among the Member who had just sat down, but for working class. The question of endow- his declaration to the contrary, that he ment was a matter of conscience, histori- was about to support the Government, cal as well as individual conscience, affect- because in the early part of his speech ing only material rights and obliga- he declared that as the law stood the tions, and he would make the best fight he Convocation of the Church of Irelandcould for it; but for the maintenance of the élite of the Church-had not the the connection between the Church and privilege enjoyed by criminals in our the State he would stand firm in the name courts. But, from a later remark, it apof those hundreds and thousands who had peared the hon. Member would continue sent him as their representative to this to deprive the dignitaries of the Church House. Having some little knowledge of Ireland of the privilege conceded to of Ireland, he would remark that there, our criminals, and he (Mr. Candlish) disas here, society had no higher bonds covered the reason in the opinion the than religion, and that the Establishment hon. Member expressed that there was in that country, as in this, was but the no godliness outside the Established outward recognition of the belief that Church. ["No, no!”] Yes, yes! The there are blessings and advantages con- hon. Member would preserve the Church sequent on the connection of the Church Establishment in Ireland in order that with the State. The Irish were charac- he might maintain the godly character VOL. CXCV. (THIRD SERIES.]

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of the country! and so the hon. Member | and religion, that connection would exist shut


in this dilemma—he must just in proportion to the personal religion inflict hardship upon the dignitaries of of the members of the civil community. the Church in Ireland in order to main- The right hon. Gentleman the Member tain the godliness he desiderated, or he for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli) told must sacrifice the godliness in order to them that the Roman Catholic Church get rid of the bondage he detested. But in Ireland was in effect an established in reality there was no such necessity Church. From the right hon. Gentleand no such dilemma, for the Noncon- man's point of view he (Mr. Candlish) forming bodies of that country were not should have considered that to be an devoid of the godliness the hon. Member argument in favour of severing the so much desired. It would have been connection between the Church and the well if those who argued against this State in Ireland; because, if the Roclause, on the ground of its being need- man Catholic Church, being wholly unful to maintain the supremacy of the connected with the State, was an estabQueen, had shown how that supremacy lished Church, the Protestant Church arose and why it should be continued— would still be an established Church, if they had shown that in the origin, even though it were severed from the constitution of, or necessity for a Church State—unless, indeed, it were contended there was any idea whatever of the su- that it was necessary to have a civil gopremacy of the civil governor. Accord- vernor as the supreme head of an esing to his idea of the Church of Christ, tablished Church. But, if the Pope its origin was heavenly and divine, and ceased to be a civil governor, he would there was nothing which rendered it still be the head of the Roman Catholic necessary that the Head of that Church Church. If the Church were divine should be represented by the civil go- in its origin, it was not dependent on

And if there was nothing in legislation, and would exist in spite of it; the nature and constitution of the Church and, he believed, that the Irish Church, that required the civil governor to con- if left to the free operation of the great trol her, neither was there anything in and mighty principles on which it was the objects and necessities of civil go-founded, and the truths which it taught, vernment that required the ruler to pre- its power to move and control the heart side in the Church. But then the Royal of man would be vastly augmented, supremacy was defended on another and the Church itself would be greatly ground—that it secured identity of doc- blessed by the measure which the Gotrine, worship, discipline, and govern-vernment had submitted to the House. ment. He contended that it did not MR. ASSHETON CROSS said, it apsecure identity of doctrine ; for it was peared to him that the arguments which notorious that the utmost diversity of they had heard from the Ministerial side doctrine prevailed in the Church of Eng- of the House that night applied as much land notwithstanding the supremacy of to the Church of England as to that of Irethe Queen. He concurred with the right land. He agreed with the hon. Member hon. and learned Member for the Uni- for Liverpool (Mr. Graves) that they were versity of Dublin (Dr. Ball) that it was not there to discuss nice legal questions

, an exceedingly difficult thing to deter- but a great practical question; and he mine points of doctrine ; and that was a must say he believed that this was the strong argument for that House having clause of the Bill which the people of this nothing to do in determining what doc- country-he could certainly say the people trines should prevail in the free Church of Lancashire—thought more about than of Ireland. He thought that in this any other in the whole Bill, because it measure they were conferring a privilege was felt that though it would be unjust, upon the Church in Ireland, by giving unwise, and impolitic to take away proher members freedom of worship - å perty which the Church had enjoyed so freedom which he claimed for himself, Iong, yet it was merely a matter of and which was the birthright of every money, and the zeal and generosity of freeman-together with the opportunity the members of the Church might, in of determining her own doctrine and a generation or two, make up what discipline. As to upholding the Estab- was lost; but by disestablishment they lished Church for the sake of preserving took away the very birthright of the the connection between the civil power Church, and deprived her of what it

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was out of her power to replace. public mind. He knew it personally as

. . This clause was therefore a matter regarded one part of the country at all of principle.

He ventured to say events. He heartily wished that through that their Roman Catholic brethren some chance or another there might be had shown them an example which another General Election, because he they would do well to imitate. The was quite sure, that the longer this matRoman Catholic body had worked ter was debated and kept before the long, patiently, and boldly to defend country, the stronger would become the their rights and get a footing in this feeling of the public against the meacountry. They had laboured for what sure. He ventured to say that a question they believed to be the truth, and they of this enormous magnitude could not were now accomplishing the first object; be settled in an hour, nor even a month. and they would never rest until they Even if this Bill were passed it could had secured for their religion that posi- not be a final measure, because it would țion of supremacy in the State which it be felt as a grievous wrong by Protesthad formerly held in this kingdom. He ants, and they, like the Roman Cathodid not blame them for that, but he lics, could fight long for what they bewanted the people who belonged to the lieved to be their liberties. A good deal Church of England to stand up in the had been said about the supremacy of same way for their religion. He be- the Crown, or, in other words, the conlieved that the Church of England came nection between the Crown and the nearer to Apostolic and Gospel truth than Church in Ireland, he would simply any Church in the world, and he there- remind them that from the year 1845 to fore wished to uphold that Church, not 1865, only four Petitions had been preonly in England but in Ireland. His sented on the subject of the Irish Church. authority was the book written some Therefore it might with truth be said that years ago by the right hon. Gentle- the supremacy of the Crown had not man at the head of the Government. / then been felt in Ireland as a grievance. Nothing would induce him to cast as- They might succeed in disestablishing persions upon the right hon. Gentleman the Irish Church, but they could not because he had changed his mind. He destroy it. They would, however, create (Mr. Cross) had read that book long this state of things. They would have ago, and was then firmly convinced of the Church still in close connection with the truth of the arguments it contained; the State in this country, and with the and he (Mr. Cross) must say that nothing free Church in Ireland. What would he had since heard or seen could con- be the consequences ? They knew that vince him that his arguments were they had no moral right to alter the conwrong. He should therefore stand by stitution and laws of the Church without the book the right hon. Gentleman had consulting Convocation. By its ancient written, and the arguments he had then constitution the Church had a right to used. Admitting that there was a State be heard in Convocation. Convocation necessity for making some alterations in this country might say they would in the condition of the Church of Ire-act with the Church in Ireland, which land, he believed that those alterations was one with them, and might refuse could be made without interfering with to assent to any alterations proposed, what the Protestant Episcopalians of and such a state of things might produce Ireland believed to be the rights of their a collision between the Church and the Church. They were entitled to demand, State, the consequences of which might not as a favour but as a right, that they be far more serious than they anticipated. should be allowed to contine what they He contended that it was not necessary believed to be essential and proper for to carry this clause in order to effect the the exercise of their religion—its con- objects of the promoters of the Bill, and nection with the State by means of the his side of the House had therefore a supremacy of the Crown. By passing right to warn them against going any this clause the Committee would in effect further with this clause, the adoption be trampling upon their rights-insult- of which would deprive the Protestant ing and injuring them most seriously. Episcopalians in Ireland of what they He believed in his heart that there had believed to be essential to the proper been, even since the recent election, a exercise of their religion, which they very great change on the subject in the wished to preserve without interfering

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