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pose to deal with the Church is to take | mistaken in saying that one year the away its property and give the Church Government with which my noble Friend tenants the option of buying the land at a price to be named by certain Commissioners; we have, therefore, not the least doubt that, if the Government told what was in their inmost minds, they would tell us that they intend to introduce a similar measure with regard to the land, and we shall do all we can to bring about that result." The consequence of that feeling is that dealing with the land in Ireland, in the shape of granting leases or otherwise, has been for the present suspended, and you have the commencement of an agitation in the country for which I must say Her Majesty's Government must be held responsible.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, it is undoubtedly a great satisfaction to me that, in the course of this debate, we have heard a speech like that which has been delivered by the noble Lord formerly Chief Secretary for Ireland (Lord Athlumney)-a speech which has tended in some degree to throw oil upon the troubled waters, and which presented a picture of peace and harmony that prevails, I doubt not, in the portion of the country with which he is familiar. Most devoutly do I wish that picture was equally true of the rest of Ireland. I do not pretend to say that the Governmentis abstaining or desiring to abstain during the present Session from bringing in a measure relying upon the state of Ireland being satisfactory; far from it. Twenty-one years ago, when I entered Parliament, I heard the first speeches of Mr. Sharman Crawford upon the subject. I do not know how many speeches he may have made-I heard six-or how many Bills he may have brought in; but from that time forward there have been attempts made to settle this question: and now we have just been told by the noble and learned Lord who has last spoken (Lord Cairns) that the pre-eminence he claims for the Government with which he has been associated is this-that they at least had a remedy, that they at least brought forward their Bill, that they at least submitted it to the consideration of Parliament; though they had not been so fortunate as to persuade Parliament to pass it. My attention has not been of late years so much directed to politics as it once was; but I believe I am not much

was connected brought forward a Bill with which they did not proceed, and last Session they promised a Bill which they did not bring forward. If that be the case, surely we are not placed at a great disadvantage as compared with our predecessors? But, my Lords, the question is of a far higher nature than the conduct of Government on one side or the other; and really if my noble and learned Friend had not made the remarks he did I should not have been tempted to make these observations. I do not deny the gravity of the case; I do not deny the importance of finding a remedy as speedily as you can, consistently with producing one which will be satisfactory. But when the noble Earl who spoke early in the debate (Earl Grey) told us we should be answerable for all the misery and mischief which might occur if we delayed legislation for another year; I do not think, after this delay of twenty or thirty years, the noble Earl can have fairly weighed his words in making the remark. Assuredly it is not desirable, in the state of mind which he pictures to us as existing in Ireland, to throw out words of this description, and to say to those who are disposed to be insubordinate and to disregard the law— "Never mind, you are not responsible; but the Government is responsible for all that you do." But it did not occur to the noble Earl to consider whether a measure which would not settle the question, and would not be satisfactory, might not be regarded by those who are dissatisfied as a mere mockery and a mere delusion, and whether the passing of it would not be tantamount to saying"We know your grievances, and we believe them to exist; we have a measure before us which we will pass in a hurry, because we have not time to think of a better; and we will leave you to take your chance of any future complete measure for settling the grievances of which you complain." Anything more improper than such a declaration on the part of a Government I can hardly conceive. I join issue with my noble and learned Friend (Lord Cairns) who says the measure which the Government has on hand, and which has been demanded by majorities in England, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland, is a prelude to spoliation and destruction of pro

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perty; but I will not be drawn into the discussion of that question. The noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) says he does not blame the Government for not bringing a Land Bill forward because he knows their time and attention is fully occupied by another subject; but he blames them for not coming forward and declaring what they think. My Lords, consider the injustice of this course. The Government unfortunately is not in the position of the noble Marquess; he can tell us what he thinks; but if the Secretary of State for the Colonies told the House what he thought, he must have told the House what was thought by the Cabinet, and must have stated the policy they would be prepared to follow when they have matured their measure. I must say it is not a fair course of proceeding to make such a demand. I am very far from charging the noble Marquess with unfairness in his ordinary proceedings, but I do not think it is fair on the present occasion so to deal with


proper shape for us," is a course which never ought to be adopted. We prefer to consider maturely the proper course to be taken on a grave subject. We are not afraid of any of those taunts which have been thrown out to-night as to our being disposed to make some grievous attack on property, wherefore we ought to enter into bonds and give sureties for our future conduct; but we trust that our measure will be one which will receive the assent and approval of both sides of the House; that it will be accepted as a measure to promote the benefit and happiness of Ireland, and to put an end to the present state of things-an object the attainment of which ought not to be a party question, and in the pursuit of which there ought to be no party feeling.

THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE, in reply, expressed his satisfaction at the manner in which the Bill had been received. He would not attempt any reply upon the observation that had been made, We are asked to take this measure further than to observe that it was the as the basis for our legislation, and then duty of Government, above all things, we are told that the world will believe to maintain peace, and he did not see that we are sincere in our declarations that the present Government had taken a step we do not intend to interfere with the in that direction. If the Government rights of property. I must confess that were really favourable to legislation on I, for one, do utterly and entirely pro-a constitutional basis, he entreated them test against my character and my repu- to consider the propriety of supporting tation depending upon whether I do or this Bill. do not adopt the Bill of the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Clanricarde). It may be a good Bill, and I believe in many respects it is; I believe it to be a measure of which it is impossible to oppose the second reading; but I cannot assent to the conclusion that, because we do not oppose the principle of the Bill and yet say that it will not be complete and satisfactory, we are bound to point out all its defects and to state how we

would propose to legislate. At this late hour I do not propose prolonging the discussion; but if we look to all that has been done before, we have no reason to be ashamed of the course we have taken. We do not find that any Government has taken up the subject in a satisfactory manner, and the late Government was far from attaining any such result. I do say that for any Government to bring forward a Bill on a great political or social subject which they have not maturely considered, and to throw it before Parliament and say-"We leave you to manage it, to digest it, and to put it into

Motion agreed to; Bill read 2o accordingly.

[H.L.] (No. 63.) A Bill to amend the law
relating to Reformatory Schools: And also,
BILL [H.L.] (No. 64.) A Bill to make
further provision respecting Industrial Schools
in Great Britain:
Were severally presented by The Marquess Towxs-
HEND; read 1.

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SIR MICHAEL HICKS - BEACH said, he wished to ask the President of the Poor Law Board, What progress has been made in the re-arrangement of the Gilbert Unions and other places with which the Poor Law Board were empowered to deal by Section 4 of the Poor Relief Act of last Session; and whether advantage has been taken in any instances of Clause 6 of the same. Act, by which small parishes may be united for the election of guardians; and, whether he is taking any steps with

a view to the consolidation of the Acts relating to the Relief of the Poor in England and Wales?

poor relief, there is at present so much work on our hands at the Poor Law Board that we are unable to deal with that most desirable object; but I trust that in the autumn, when we have more time at our disposal, we may be able to attempt the task.

COLONEL BOURNE said, he wished to ask the President of the Poor Law Board, If he has any objection to lay upon the Table of the House the Correspondence with the Evesham Board of Guardians on the subject of "placing out" orphan children inmates of the Union Workhouse?

MR. GOSCHEN: I shall have no objection to lay that correspondence on the table.



ask the Third Lord of the Treasury, MR. FORDYCE said, he wished to Whether the Lords Commissioners of Her Majesty's Woods and Forests will provide a Return stating which salmon fishings in the rivers in Scotland are still been granted to individuals by charters retained by the Crown, and which have or other titles; and, whether in the case of those fishings which the Crown retains, the public may be permitted to angle with rod and line during the open


MR. GOSCHEN: Considerable progress has been made, Sir, with regard to the dissolution of the Gilbert Unions under the Act of last Session. There were twelve incorporations; of these six have been dissolved. In the case of four others, orders have been directed to be issued for their dissolution; and as re-to his hon. Friend, he had to inform MR. STANSFELD said, in answer gards the remaining two, the Reports him that the title to salmon fishing was of the Inspectors have been received, not merely founded on grants from the and will be dealt with shortly. These dissolutions often give rise to very lengthy Crown, but on adverse possession for negotiations, and not unnaturally create forty years. From the fact of the unconsiderable difference of opinion be- certainty of these titles, it would be imtween town and county as to the mode possible to furnish the Return asked in which the re-arrangement should be for; and it would be hardly consistent with the duties of the Commissioners of effected. As regards the second part of the Question, I have to state that the Woods to allow the public, in the case 6th clause, though of very general ap-tains, to angle with rod and line during of those fishings which the Crown replication, can only be acted upon at the annual election, and with reference to the circumstances of each union separately. The Board have had several cases under their consideration, but have not been able to settle them before the election that was held at the beginning of this month. They expect, however, to have brought the clause into extensive operation before the time of the next annual election. As regards the consolidation of the laws relating to


open season.


COLONEL BRISE said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to make any provision for the payment of "the Visitation fees" hitherto legally chargeable on Church Rates?

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MR. BRUCE said, the attention of for England nearly empty, while General the Government had not hitherto been Lysons and other officers and men whom called to this subject. The case was one she might have accommodated were of considerable hardship. Even though waiting for passage home at the public no church rate had been levied the expense? churchwardens were liable.

In some

MR. GRANT DUFF, in reply, said, instances churchwardens had paid the it was within his knowledge that the money out of their own pockets, and in Crocodile came home recently with no others they had been compelled by law troops on board; but he knew nothing to pay it. The case was one of hard- whatever of any application made on ship, and worthy the consideration of behalf of General Lysons, or of any Government, which it would receive. officers or men for a passage in that

vessel. Any application in the proper IRISH CHURCH BILL-ORGANISTS. quarter for the accommodation of officers QUESTION.

or men entitled to a passage at the publio Mr. O'REILLY - DEASE said, he expense would, no doubt, have been would beg to ask the First Lord

of the complied with. It had not been the Treasury, Whether he is prepared to re- home in the Indian Government vessels

practice hitherto to allow officers to come consider the question of compensation to if they were not entitled to a passage organists under the Irish Church Bill; and, whether, as such appointments are

at the public expense, but that practice for the most part for life, he thinks that might, perhaps, be re-considered with one year's compensation is adequate to advantage in such exceptional cases as

the hon. Gentleman's Question seemed compensate for the loss of office under the provisions of the Bill ?

to point to. MR. GLADSTONE : My best answer, Sir, to this Question will be to refer to the Notice of Amendment which I have


IRISH CLERGY.- QUESTION. given in the second line of the seventh page of the Irish Church Bill. I do not MR. COLLINS said, he would beg to think it is correct to say that such ap- ask the First Lord of the Treasury, pointments are made for life. They are Whether, in the event of the disestabgenerally made without special limit of lishment of the Irish Church, Bishops, time. They are tenable during pleasure, priests, and deacons in Irish Orders will but not entirely of a precarious charac- be able to officiate or hold preferment in ter. In certain cases their emoluments the Established Church in England ? come out of the Cathedral fund-non MR. GLADSTONE: Sir, this is a constat that they will in many cases be Question of very great importance, and at all affected; but it would not be I would not wish to be understood as reasonable or correct to say that their giving, on the present occasion, an anoffices are freehold. The effect of the swer that can be regarded as perfectly Amendment will be that the cases will final and complete. At the same time, be inquired into, and it will be the duty it is quite obvious that it is a matter of of the Commissioners to find where any great interest to many. First of all, person is deprived of any income derived with respect to those clergy who are orfrom any property or fund vested in the dained already, or who will be ordained, by the Act, and to pay such further in the Irish Church before the period of compensation as, in communication with disestablishment, as far as I am aware the Treasury, they may determine. I or as far as the Government are aware hope that answer will be satisfactory. -there will not be under the Bill, or So far as the Government is informed, it under any statute, any disability whatis the best mode that could be adopted. ever attaching to them either before or

after disestablishment. Personally, we NAVY_" CROCODILE” TRANSPORT.

apprehend they will retain all the privi

leges and qualifications, with regard to QUESTION

employment elsewhere, which the clergy MR. STACPOOLE said, he wished to of the Irish Church possess at the preask the Under Secretary of State for sent moment; and those I believe to be India, If it be true that Her Majesty's precisely the same as the qualifications Transport “ Crocodile” lately left Malta possessed by the clergy of the English VOL. CXCV. (THIRD SERIES.]

+ 2 Q 4

1199 Criminal LarLiberation {COMMONS) of Sir Eardley C. Eardley. 1200 Church. But, if it should appear that Churches. For the present, I cannot there is the smallest doubt upon the say that I know that there is any dissubject, I can even now say that we ability applying to the Bishops and shall take care to make the matter per- clergy of the Established Church in Irefectly clear, before the Bill reaches an land consecrated or ordained after disesadvanced stage, so that there shall be no tablishment. So far as those who take question at all of the full preservation their status before disestablishment, I of the personal privileges of all those apprehend there is no such disability; clergy. The hon. Member has also but if we find that there is, it will be reasked me with regard to the clergy who moved. shall be ordained subsequent to the date of disestablishment; and here I must ARMY-MILITARY TRAIN.-QUESTION. not be undorstood to speak with the

MR. W. F. COWPER said, he would same positiveness, but I believe I am

beg to ask the Secretary of State for perfectly correct in saying that the gene- War, Whether it is intended to alter the ral principle of the law in this country organization and position of the Military is that persons having received Episcopal Train; and, if so, when the character of Orders are qualified as far as the Orders the intended alteration will be anare concerned, apart from other ques: nounced ? tions of life and doctrine, for clerical

MR. CARDWELL, in reply, said, that employment in England, unless where a

a change of that nature was now in statute is passed to limit or prevent that

course of employment. Because it is upon record

progress under the Control de historically that, after the disestablish- constitution of the new Corps was now

partment. The Warrant directing the ment of the Episcopalian Church in under the consideration of the CommisScotland, in the commencement of the sioners of the Treasury, and as soon as reign of William III., the clergymen of it had received Her Majesty's approval the Church were employed elsewhere, it would be made public. both in England and in Ireland, and certainly at least one Bishop of the Scotch Church became a Bishop in Ireland. CRIMINAL LAW-LIBERATION OF Sie When the Scotch Episcopalian Church

EARDLEY C. EARDLEY.-QUESTION, made an effort to escape from the pres- MR. SCOURFIELD said, he would sure of the penal laws enacted against it beg to ask the Secretary of State for the in the last century on account of its Home Department, Whether there is political affinities, ecclesiastical disabili- any foundation for a statement which ties were imposed on the clergy in re- has appeared in some of the newspapers turn, and they were absolutely disabled to the effect that Sir Eardley C. Eardley from officiating in England. Those dis- has been set free by his orders, on the abilities were relaxed partly by an Act application of one of his Colleagues; and. passed, in 1840, by Archbishop Howley, whether Sir Eardley C. Eardley is at preand partly by an Act passed in 1864. sent in this Country ? For nearly twentyAnother Act was also passed, I think, one years it had been his (Mr. Scours relating to the same subject as regards field's lot to hold a situation that brought the American clergy, and there is a fur- him into communication with the Home ther Act regulating the status of the Office, and he could speak with perfect colonial clergy. It can only be after a confidence as to the general careful examination of the language of impartiality exercised in that office in all those Acts that it will be possible to cases of this description. state finally whether there is at present MR. BRUCE: Sir, I might content any statutable disability which would myself by saying that for none of these apply to the clergy of the Irish Church statements is there the slightest foundaafter the period of disestablishment. tion. But as insinuations have been But I think it is quite possible that it made gravely impugning the impartial may be right that, at some period or administration of justice, the House map other, the attention of Parliament should require some satisfaction, and will

. I be drawn to this subject with a view to hope, allow me to state rather more ful the adoption of some more uniform prin- what are the real facts of the case. I ciple than now prevails in our law with Eardley C. Eardley was convicted of bigaregard to the clergy of disestablished my in January, 1868, and received a ser


care and

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