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(APRIL 22, 1869)

regard to the cause of death. They der the circumstances, I could not give a

satisfactory explanation without exceed“ That the deceased was proved to have been ing the brevity ordinarily assigned to totally incapable by reason of intoxication, and answers to Questions. I hope it will be had been lying about in the rain and mud for the opinion of the House that, in exermany hours before the condemned met with her ; cising the high trust reposed in me, I and we believe that the death of the said Harriet have done so with discretion, and under Nurse was accelerated by cold and exposure as well as by the violence of the prisoner; that up

a full sense of the great responsibility I to the time of the condemned meeting with Harriet incur, and that the reasons I have given Nurse there could be no intention on his part to are satisfactory to the House and to the molest her, or do her any injury, and we hope the

country. clemency of the Crown will be extended to the condemned, as we believe the case is one in which mercy may with propriety be exercised.”

ROMAN CATHOLIC CHARITIES. That is the opinion of the jury. The

QUESTION. opinion of the Judge was communicated to me on another memorial being sent to

MR. NEWDEGATE said, he would me, which memorial stated that, in the beg to ask the Secretary of State for the opinion of the memorialists, there was Home Department, whether the Gono intention on the part of the prisoner vernment consent to the production of to take life, and that the woman's death the information which will be required arose as much from natural causes as by the Return with respect to Roman from any violence. The Judge, in his Catholic Charities, Notice for which communication to me, said

stands on the Orders for this day?

MR. BRUCE said, in reply, that he " I entirely agree with the memorial, that the evidence shows no intention on the part of the

was sorry to say that it would be his prisoner to take life ; and I also think it probable duty to oppose the Motion of his hon. that she would not have died from that violence, Friend that evening. He was informed if she had not been intoxicated. I shall be glad by the Deputy Keeper of the Rolls at if you find in these circumstances a reason for the Record Office that it would be imgranting the prayer of the petition, and commuting the sentence of death to penal servitude.”

possible to prepare the Returns for

which his hon. Friend asked in less than It is well that the House and the coun- a twelvemonth, and then only by emtry should understand how in these cases, ploying upon the task the services of which so often offend the honest opinion Officers who were required in another of the public, there is apparent discre-department. pancy between the opinion of the Judge and jury on the one hand, and that of the Home Secretary on the other. It

ARMY-COLONELS' PAY. arises from this—that the jury is obliged to find from the direction of the Judge, a

QUESTION. verdict of wilful murder; and that the MR. H. R. BRAND said, he would Judge is constantly required to pass a beg to ask the Secretary of State for sentence of death, when it is quite cer- War, Whether, seeing that Colonels tain it will not, cannot, ought not, to be commanding Regiments in the Regular executed. Take the cases of child murder. Army no longer receive an allowance It is perfectly notorious that no woman for clothing estimated upon the number is ever executed for the murder of her of men in their Regiments, there is any infant child. In many other cases, no reason why the Colonels commanding sooner has the Judge passed his sentence (King's) Dragoon Guards and 1st Royals than he immediately communicates with respectively should continue in the rethe Home Secretary, telling him his opi- ceipt of a higher rate of pay than the nion that the capital sentence ought not Colonels of other Regiments of the to be carried out. Such is the state of Line ? the law, and so long as it is the state of MR. CARDWELL said, in reply, that the law it is absolutely impossible but the reduction suggested by the hon. that the decision of the Secretary of State Member had been determined upon in must occasionally be in disaccord with the the month of August last year, and when finding of the jury and the sentence of the the colonelcy of the 1st Royals became Judge.

I thank the House for their vacant, the appointment was made at a kindness in hearing me. I felt that, un- reduced rate.

| case also the order was carried into effect CATTLE PLAGUE-DISEASED FOREIGN before it was possible that they could SIIEEP.- QUESTION.

come in contact with other sheep. The LORD ROBERT MONTAGU said, he House ought to be informed that every rose to put a Question to the right hon. step had been taken in this case which Gentleman the Vice President of the would have been taken if the late Orders Council, of which he had not given him in Council had been still in force. Owing notice, and if the right hon. Gentleman | to the vigilance of the officers of Cuswished it he would postpone it till to- toms, and of the other departments, morrow. He wished to know if it were everything was done that could have true that a cargo of 1,800 sheep had been done if these Orders had been still arrived in London from Antwerp, of in force that was to say that all diswhich several were found when landed eased sheep, and all the sheep that had to be infected with sheep-pox; and also been in communication with them, were whether another cargo of between 500 destroyed, and orders were given that and 600 sheep, also from Antwerp, had the wharves where they were landed been landed at Harwich, a portion of should not be used again till they were which were also found to be infected; thoroughly disinfected. He might exand, if so, what steps had been taken to plain to the House, as it might appear prevent the spread of the infection ? alarming that two cargoes landed at

MR. W. E. FORSTER said, in reply, different ports were both infected, that that, for the information of the noble there was reason to believe that these Lord, and for the satisfaction of the cargoes were sent by the same person House, he would answer the Question on the Continent, and were consigned to at once. It was true he yesterday re- the same parties here, and that they had ceived information that two cargoes of been separated in the hope of their being sheep had arrived, one at London, and more easily landed - a device that was another at Harwich, in both of which it quickly discovered by the authorities. was stated that one or two sheep were

LORD ROBERT MONTAGU said, he suffering from sheep-pox. Steps were wished to ask if the Privy Council had immediately taken to ascertain the truth determined to issue any fresh general of the statement, and officers of the orders with regard to sheep that were Customs and of the Department with imported from districts abroad that were which he was connected were sent to reported to be infected ? examine. With respect to Harwich, he MR. W. E. FORSTER said, the held in his hand a Report from Professor matter had been under the consideraSimons, in which it was stated that a tion of the Privy Council, but the facts cargo had been landed there consisting did not appear to warrant any change ; of 351 sheep, of which three were dis- nothing had happened which tended to covered to be suffering from sheep-pox. show that the regulations now in force The fact was discovered not only before were insufficient. the sheep had left the wharf, but before they could possibly have been placed in

IRISH CHURCH BILL—(BILL 27.] communication with other sheep. Steps were immediately taken for the slaugh

(Mr. Dodson, Mr. Gladstone, Mr. John Bright,

Mr. Chichester Fortescue, Mr. Attorney ter of the whole cargo, and orders were

General for Ireland.) given that no more sheep should be landed at that wharf till it had been

COMMITTEE. [Progress 19th April.] thoroughly disinfected. A telegraphie

Bill considered in Committee. message had been sent down to Harwich

(In the Committee.) to carry these orders into effect. With Clause 14 (Compensation to ecclesiregard to the cargo which was brought astical persons other than curates). to London the same steps had been Sir GEORGE JENKINSON said, as taken. The cargo there consisted of the clause now stood it would work great about 1,800 sheep, twenty-two of them injustice upon those incumbents who were suspected to be infected with the from ill-health, age, or other good reasheep-pox, and one or two of them were son, might desire to exchange their livfound to be thoroughly infected. Steps ings. In order to remedy this defect he were immediately taken that the whole proposed the following Amendment in cargo should be slaughtered, and in this page 5, line 23


“ After .cr preferment' insert or other that it went even further, therefore the equivalent duty to which he shall have been duly object he had in view—namely, the fair appointed in respect of the Protestant Church in

protection of the Irish clergy was equally Ireland.""

attained. SIR ROUNDELL PALMER said, he had on the Paper an Amendment Amendment (Sir Roundell Palmer) embracing all that the hon. Baronet agreed to. asked for, but going to some extent further than the hon. Baronet proposed. the next Amendment that stood upon the

SIR GEORGE JENKINSON said, He would suggest, therefore, by way of saving time, that the hon. Baronet Papera was also in his name, and he should permit him to move his Amend- trusted the right hon. Gentleman at the

head of the Government would accept it, ment. He need not trouble the Committee with many reasons for his Amend- or, at all events, words intended to have

the same effect, as it rested on much the ment, because its principle had been recognized by the right hon. Gentleman at

same grounds as the last. He asked the head of the Government, who said

the right hon. Gentleman to place himthat it was not his intention to tie down

self in the position of the unfortunate those who were entitled to compensa- means by this Bill, and to say whether,

persons who were to be deprived of their tion to the same local duties in which they in the event of an incumbent dying were now occupied. It was evident that

within six months of the time of the the Church in her new position would require to make great changes in the passing of this Bill, it was just that the distribution of her powers, and, there- parish of which he had spiritual charge fore, it was but fair that every facility perform the services of the Church ? The

should be left without any minister to should be afforded her for doing so. Amendment moved in line 23–

only permanent endowment under this

Bill would be given to the Roman Ca“ After “preferment,' insert, or any other tholic College of Maynooth, every other spiritual duties in Ireland which may be substi. tuted for them, with his own consent, and with compensation given under it being only the consent of the representative body of the said for life. In the case of Maynooth the Church hereinafter mentioned, or, if not dis- compensation was made in a lump charging such duties, shall be disabled from so sum, which, if invested, would give a doing by age, sick ness, or permanent infirmity, or by any cause other than his own wilful default."

very considerable permanent income. (Sir Roundell Palmer.)

Under these circumstances he begged to He trusted that the Government would

move the following Amendment in page

5, line 24– agree to the Amendment.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR “ After' as aforesaid'insert and at the death of IRELAND (Mr. SULLIVAN) said, that such incumbent or other avoidance of such benethe Government were of opinion that the tice or preferment, his successor, if any such bo words of the hon. and learned Gentle- duly appointed, shall be paid a similar annual man's Amendment might be safely authorities, and such annual payment shall con

payment from the snme source, and by the same adopted. The words of the clause made tinue to be so paid to any duly appointed succesthe income of the Archbishop, Bishop, or sor so long as the duties of such benefice or preincumbent dependent upon the discharge

ferment are properly and adequately performed. of his duties; and the Government agreed Nobody could gainsay the justice of with the hon. and learned Member that these words, because they merely prothat income should not be forfeited in posed to provide for the parish that the event of an exchange of livings, or which had been hitherto provided for of the recipient being disabled from dis- partly by the generosity of the landcharging his duties through no fault of owners and partly by the tithe-renthis own. The Government had carefully charge. The House had heard from the considered the Amendment, and it ap- Prime Minister that the sooner the Irish peared to them that it might safely be Church was remitted to the liberality of adopted.

its members the better. To a certain SIR GEORGE JENKINSON would extent he admitted that proposition, alwith pleasure withdraw his Amendment though there might be two views even in favour of the one proposed by the with regard to that. This measure prohon. and learned Member for Rich- posed to take away a great proportion mond, which was to the same effect as of the funds that had belonged to that the one he had himself proposed, only | Church for 300 years, and even to take

[Committee-Clause 14.

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away private endowments. Having thus they received fines on the renewal of the shorn the Church, it was proposed to leases. A doubt had occurred to his mind turn her out naked to gain fresh wool— whether the effect of the Bill had been in time, probably, to be shorn again. hitherto to save the leasing power at all, He objected to that sheep-shearing pro- and, if so, whether it was to remain with cess, and he hoped the Prime Minister all its former incidents. It seemed to would agree to his Amendment.

him that if a doubt existed upon the MR. GLADSTONE said, he must com- point the matter could be set right upon mence by assuring the hon. Baronet the Report. that, as far as the Government were MR. PIM said, he had given notice of concerned, there was not the slightest an Amendment, the object of which was intention to grant any permanent en- to increase the annuities to be paid to dowment to Maynooth. If the hon. the holders of very poor benefices. Baronet objected to the form of the There were in Ireland 297 benefices of clause making compensation to that Col- under £100 a year, 421 of between £100 lege, he might propose to amend it when and £200, and 356 of between £200 and that clause came on for discussion. The £300. In fact, about two-thirds of the principle of this Bill was to take away benefices in Ireland had a net revenue all permanent endowments, without in- of under £300. There were about 1,000 quiring what crumbs and fragments the of the Irish livings in the patronage of parties receiving compensation might the Bishops; and there could be no save out of the wreck in order to es- doubt that a considerable number of tablish a permanent fund for their sup- these livings must, in course of time, be port. In looking at the Amendment given to the rev. gentlemen whose claims proposed by the hon. Baronet, he could he advocated. It was utterly impossible scarcely suppose that it could have been that the Bishops could avoid giving at put forward seriously. It was possibly least some of those livings to those gensusceptible of two constructions - the tlemen, however much they might wish first and mildest construction being that, to bestow their patronage on their own upon the vested interest with which the particular friends. He therefore thought Committee had now to deal should be that clergymen who held very poor put another generation of vested in benefices were entitled to compensation terosts; and the second being that, hav- for the loss of their chance of prefering already passed the general clauses ment. It should be remembered that of the Bill disendowing the Church of by the Bill, these gentlemen were bound Ireland, the Committee should now in- to perform duty for life ; and, as the sert words into this clause which would scheme of this Bill destroyed the prosperpetuate endowments at the present pects of promotion which they would rate in every parish in Ireland. He otherwise have had, their case required need scarcely say that the Government some consideration from Parliament. could not assent to such a proposition.

Certainly they had a strong claim, and Amendment negatired.

he trusted that the question would not

be treated on merely technical grounds SIR ROUNDELL PALMER said, he of law, but on liberal terms of equity. was not sure whether it would be pro- He thought they were entitled to someper here to advert to a subject which he thing for the loss of their hopes of imregretted had not been referred to on a provement; being now left in narrow former clause that related to life in- circumstances, and in a much less faterests in lands and hereditaments be-vourable position than they might have longing to the clergy. What they had anticipated. He had received several already done was to allow property to letters on the subject, not only from vest in the Commissioners, and by words clergymen but from others. He had rein the former clause to reserve to the ceived one from Dr. Longfield, late present holders all the corporeal here- Judge of the Irish Landed Estates Court, ditaments which they possessed for their who remarked that a clergyman could lives in the same manner as if this Bill only earn his bread as a clergyman or a had not passed. He understood that a schoolmaster, and they should offer him considerable part of the income of some compensation not only for existing rights of them was dependent upon fines; that but also for the loss of future prospects. was to say, they had leasing powers and in the Library of the House he had seen



an ahle pamphlet on the subject, and ! MR. GLADSTONE said, he was sorry the writer held very much the same the Government were unable to accept opinion as Dr. Longfield, and proposed the Amendment proposed by his hon. something of very much the same cha- Friend. He did not deny the difficulty racter. Some holders of benefices had of the case. When a Church Estabaccepted less income than they had re- lishment, involving so many interests, ceived when curates, in order to get into or even when a small establishment, inthe way of promotion, and it would be volving interests on a smaller scale, was hard if they should be placed in a worse dealt with on the principle of abolition, position than they would have occupied there was always a great risk of inconif they had remained curates. He was venience to individuals in the loss of the anxious to have the principle estab- prospect of promotion, but it was imlished, because he thought it was not possible for Parliament to undertake to right or just that the holders of very offer compensation for that loss. One small livings should get nothing more reason for that was the extremely inthan a life annuity of the same amount definite nature of those prospects. They as their present income. He had fixed had heard that all curates in Ireland reon £250 a year as the average income ceived preferment; but the rule was not for which those clergymen might rea- without exceptions, because he had resonably hope, and he had put down ceived a letter some short time since in twenty-five years as the term after which the writer stated that though he which the increased annuity should com- had served under six Bishops in the mence to be paid, because he believed same diocese, none of them had been that term to be about the average of the sufficiently long in possession to provide number of years' service after which a for those in whom they felt a clergyman might, under ordinary cir- natural and special interest, and, consecumstances, expect a better position than quently, the writer had never been prothat enjoyed by holders of those small moted. Supposing, too, that curates livings. He trusted hon. Gentlemen did get preferment, that preferment was would not be impatient. Indeed, if a of a very unequal character, though he provision limiting their own incomes to agreed with his hon. Friend that, if they £100 a year for life were under con- could deal with this matter at all, the sideration they would not think even case of the poor incumbent was a subject two or three nights wasted in its discus-as worthy of consideration as that of the sion. His right hon. Friend the Prime permanent curate. But let the CommitMinister in a speech which he once de- tee look--though he acknowledged that livered, referring to the interests of the the analogy was somewhat imperfectparties of whom he then spoke, said that at the manner in which they dealt with though it was not a legal interest, it was the civil servants when Government one with which the House were bound offices or situations were abolished. to deal generously, and he (Mr. Pim) When a Civil Service was abolished its hoped to see that sentiment applied to duties were destroyed altogether, and the present case.

The interest for which the men were thrown out of their career he pleaded—that is, the expectation of altogether, except so far as superannupreferment—was not a legal interest, ation was concerned, having no title to but he submitted that, like the claims appointments elsewhere. He was bound derived under the Regium Donum, it was to except from the statement of his hon. an interest of a kind with which the Friend that this Bill, although for disHouse ought to deal generously. He endowment and disestablishment, cut the

, therefore moved the following addition parties off from all hope of improvement. to Clause 14, page 5, line 24 :

He did not admit that those who re“Provided always, That where the net income ceived £150 or £200 a year as clergymen of the holder of any benefice does not at present in Ireland could never hope for anything amount to two hundred and fifty pounds per an- better in the Disestablished Church. num, the Commissioners shall increase the annuity When a civil servant in this country was to be paid to the holder of such benefice to the aforesaid sum of two hundred and fifty pounds as

dismissed he was compensated for his from the first day of January next succeeding the vested interest, and not on his prospect day on which he shall have completed the term of preferment, although his prospect of twenty-five years in the discharge of the duties was secured by the fixed usage of the of a clergyman in the Protestant Episcopal public service. A clerk passed from Church in Ireland.”

[Committee-Clause 14.

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