might become necessary, for a variety of|curate as the holder of a permanent office, reasons, that he should leave: the in- and then used this convenient expression cumbent, for instance, might require him in a way false in logic and principle. His to leave on some ground involving dif- hon. and learned Friend had not met the ference of doctrine, and, presuming the case he had put of an incumbent who living required a curate, as a matter of changed his curates in the hope of senecessity, a new one would have to be curing the best possible man for the appointed and paid. This state of things purpose. In the case assumed there had should be borne in mind.

never been any freehold in the curacy, THE SOLICITOR GENERAL stated, there being only a sort of moral obligawith reference to the criticism of the tian upon the incumbent to keep a curate hon. Member for South-west Lancashire for the benefit of his parish; and so it (Mr. A. Cross) that a clergyman with an would continue to be after the disestablishincome of £800 a year, out of which he ment of the Church had been effected. had systematically paid £100 to a curate, The clergyman could part at present with should be regarded as having had an in- his curate at will; but, under the words come of £700 only. The object of the of the Amendment proposed by the right Amendment was to guide and not ab- hon. Gentleman at the head of the Gosolutely to fetter the discretion of the vernment, when a curate had served six Commissioners, and for this purpose he months in a parish before the passing of believed it was desirable that the words the Act he was to have a sort of windshould be susceptible of a large interpre- fall at the clergyman's expense, and was tation. But that, he thought, would not to receive a permanent annuity charged be case if they were to adopt the words upon the clergyman's income, whether of the Act of George IV., as suggested he gave satisfaction or not, whether he by the hon. Member. The hon. and conformed to the doctrine of his incumlearned Member for Richmond (Sir Roun- bent or not, and whether he made himdell Palmer) had raised a somewhat dif- self agreeable or the reverse. The effect ferent point. He had regarded the curate would be to compel the clergyman either as an office, and conceived the case of a to keep a curate whom he objected to or curate who had been in office but a short else to pay an additional one to discharge time. As length of service, however, his duties. He thought that it was utwas one of the circumstances the Com- terly unreasonable that a curate should missioners would have to take into ac- be held to have a permanent charge upon count, the case his hon. and learned the income of the clergyman, unless he Friend had conceived was met. And, had served such a reasonable time as inasmuch as the incumbent had always would prove his fitness for the place. had a curate, and his income had always MR. CONOLLY said, nothing could been depreciated to the extent of that be more plain than that the words procurate's salary, the depreciated income posed by the right hon. Gentleman at would represent a fair basis for calculat- the head of the Government would coming compensation. On the other hand, pel the incumbent in many cases to pay there was no injustice in compensating two curates instead of one. He thought the curate found in possession of the office that the words at the end of the clause at the time of the passing of the Act. A were perhaps the most important in the particular curate might gain an advan- whole Bill that they would have to distage; but it was impossible to follow cuss, so far as the compensation clauses with precision the multitude of cases that were concerned. They were as follows: would come before the Commissioners, " The Commissioners shall determine the cases and it was much better to lay down a in which a curate is to be deerned a permanent general rule.

curate, after hearing any objections that may be SIR ROUNDELL PALMER said, he made to the permanency of the curate by the ec. did not consider the answer he had re- serving."

person under whom he has been or is ceived from his hon. and learned Friend He thought that some more accurate by any means satisfactory; the course definition of the word “permanent” proposed was most unreasonable, and should be given than those words afwould work injuriously to curate and in- forded. cumbent. The fallacy of the Solicitor

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR General's reasoning was patent. For the IRELAND (Mr. SULLIVAN), as there convenience of expression he treated a

discussed in this clause, said, it was neces- ment, to insert after the word “service" sary to distinguish accurately between the words " and also.” them. He could not help thinking that the hon. and learned Member for Rich- Amendment proposed to the said promond (Sir Roundell Palmer) was discus- posed Amendment, after the word "sersing, under Clause 14, a subject which vice,” to insert the words " and also."might be more appropriately discussed (Sir Roundell Palmer.) under Clause 15. The question which arose under the present clause was, what MR. GLADSTONE said, the Govern. deductions were to be made from the in- ment could not agree to the Amendment cumbent's income; but the question as of his hon. and learned Friend, because to who was to get the deductions so made it would make a certain length of service was not now before the House, as that by a curate a condition of the declaration would have to be discussed on Clause 15. under this Act that he had been a perThe Committee had already decided that manent curate. In the 14 & 15 Vict. the deductions were to be made in respect words "permanent curate" were used in of permanent curates; and the question precisely the same sense as that which before them now was whether the words the Government proposed they should proposed to be added to that clause of have in this Act. The question whether the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the particular curate who might be holdthe Government were sufficient for the ing the office at the time the clause was purpose of carrying out that conclusion. to come into effect had held it for a parIt was a curious circumstance that the ticular time, though an element of conword “permanent” was to be found in sideration in another respect, was not at several old Irish Ecclesiastical Acts as all an essential element in the consideraapplied to curates, and that in 14 & 15 tion of the question whether there had Vict. c. 73, s. 2, it was declared that in been a permanent curate. The object of ascertaining the net income of the clergy that part of the clause now under discusfor the purposes of the Act, the “salaries sion was not to determine the question of permanent and necessary curates to whom the salary was to be paid, but were to be deducted. The words used to determine whether the case was one in in the present case were mere amplifica- which a deduction was to be made from tions of those words, the word "perma- the incumbent, on the ground that there nent” standing alone being considered was a permanent curate. Lower down too vague. It was perfectly true, as was there were words which contained a procontended by the hon. and learned Mem- vision that the rector was to be heard ber for Richmond (Sir Roundell Palmer) when the Commissioners were considerthat length of time of service formed an ing these matters. essential part of this clause, but the par- MR. CONOLLY said, he thought it ticular length of time was not defined. would be well that the Committee It might so happen that a clergyman should decide on what grounds the who had kept a curate for twenty years Commissioners were to determine the might lose him some year or so before status of the curate. the passing of the Act, but surely it THE ATTORNEY GENERAL rewould not be right to say that, under marked that the words merely pointed these circumstances, his new curate was out, for the consideration of the Comnot to be regarded as a permanent one. missioners, where there was any

element It was the permanent employment by a for determining whether there was a clergyman of a curate that was intended permanent curate or not. to be looked to, and not the length MR. VERNON HARCOURT said, he of service in that capacity of any in- thought the confusion had arisen from dividual.

the words stating that the CommissionSir ROUNDELL PALMER said, it ers should decide who were to be deemed was idle to attempt to separate the words permanent curates. The Commissioners “ permanent curate” from the individual were to pay the person so long as he curate who was to receive the deductions discharged the duties of his office a certo be made from the incumbent's salary. tain annuity; and he had to suggest the In order to bring the matter to a precise insertion of words, to make it clear that issue, he should move, as an Amendment they should deem that person & per, on the right hon. Gentleman's Amend- manent curate who had been employed

1385

66

66

in any particnlar parish for a length of MR. GLADSTONE moved, in line 33, time.

after “serving," to insertMR. LEFROY objected to give the

“ Provided always, That where deduction has Commissioners power

to decide who been made under this section in respect of the were or who were not permanent cu- salary of a permanent curate, and the salary of rates.

such curate ceases in the lifetime of the person MR. J. H. PALMER said, that the in ascertaining whose yearly income such salary clause connected too closely the person

has been deducted as aforesaid, the Commission

ers shall thenceforth pay to such person, so long ality of the curate with the nature of his as he lives and continues to discharge the duties office. They ought, in his opinion, to of his office, a further annuity equal to the amount make as little alteration as possible in of such curate's salary, subject to the provisions the language of the clause, and he for commutation hereinafter contained." should therefore suggest that these | The right hon. Gentleman said, this prowords should be used—“Having regard viso would repair a pardonable omission to the length of time during which such in the Bill. The omission was pardonable, curate had been employed,” instead of because the circumstances of this part of the words,“ having regard to the length the clause were so many, various, and of term of his service."

complicated that it might be excused. It SIR ROUNDELL PALMER said, was, of course, entirely contrary to the what the hon. and learned Gentleman intention of the Bill that an incumbent had proposed was exactly contrary to his should be placed in such a condition as view of the question. His object was that, having had a deduction of the to take from the incumbent and give to salary of his curate made from his inthe permanent curate ; but that if the come, and then, in consequence of the permanent curate did not comply with decease or departure of his curate, should the conditions, then the money should find himself deprived of that part of his revert to the incumbent, who might then income. find another curate. He trusted the

Clause, as amended, agreed to. Committee would adhere to the clause.

GENERAL PERCY HERBERT said, Clause 15 (Compensation to curates). he wished to know what was proposed MR. PIM moved to omit the first part to be done in the case of a curate who of the clause, which provided that the had been in Holy Orders for only eight Commissionersor nine months, and who had been for- “Shall, as soon as may be after the passing of tunate enough in that time to be ap- this Act, ascertain and declare by order, the pointed to a permanent curacy; and what amount of yearly income received by any permanent would be the nature of the treatment curate who bas been or is serving as such curate

on any day between the said first day of January accorded to the curate who had been in one thousand eight hundred and sixty-nine and the Holy Orders for twelve or fifteen years, first day of January one thousand eight hundred but who at the last moment had under and seventy-one, both days inclusive, and shall taken the duties of a curacy which evi- pay to every such curate during his life an an

nuity equal to the amount of yearly income so asdently was of a temporary character?

certained as aforesaid, subject to the proviso that MR. GLADSTONE said, he thought the annuity of such curate shall cease if, owing to the hon. and gallant Gentleman could his misconduct, or by his own free choice, he quit not have heard it stated that the Go- the curacy in respect of which the annuity is given

to him.” vernment purposed altering that portion of the Bill which related to non-perma- The hon. Member said, it appeared that nent curates, with a view to bringing the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) their condition nearer, although not was prepared to accept, to some extent, identical to that of the permanent cu- the principle suggested in the further rates.

Amendments of which he had given noMR. G. GREGORY suggested that tice. His object in moving them was to this section of the clause should be post- secure the payment of a lump sum to poned until the Committee had dealt each curate, so that the compensation with Clause 15.

he received should not be dependent

upon his remaining in the curacy. He Question put, “That those words be had received communications from cuthere inserted."

rates in the dioceses of Cork, Ossory, The Committee divided : - Ayes 128; and Cashel, who complained of the Noes 221: Majority 93.

hardship of tying them down for life to

[Committee-Clause 15.

one spot, and complained that the me-service from the obligations of which thod of compensation proposed pressed you are going to be altogether relieved." with great severity upon the curates of A great portion of these permanent calongest standing. There did not appear rates would be young men in the full to be any provision for old age and sick- vigour of life, and, supposing that the ness, so that if a curate was incapaci- rector obtained from them one-half or tated by sickness he would lose his an- one-third of the commutation money as nuity, which would be a great hardship, the condition of releasing them from He Mr. Pim) thought that, instead of service, they would have £500 or £700 a life annuity, a lump sum ought to be in their pockets-no very large sum, given to them, without enforcing any Heaven knew, for men of education, conditions, by way of compensation for but still a much larger sum, probably, their expenditure in preparing them- than many of them had ever comselves for an office which they had ex- manded in their lives, and they would pected would continue to be supported have the world before them. It could by the State.

not be said in this case that in taking Amendment proposed, to leave out the away their particular employment you first paragraph.-(Mr. Pim.)

took away all employment, for Ireland

was only a small portion of the field MR. GLADSTONE said, he under- open to them. There were in Ireland stood the hon. Member wished to collect not more than 500 curacies, but in Engwhat were the precise arrangements land there were more than 5,000, for which the Government proposed with every one of which the Irish curate, regard to the non-permanent curates. dismissed with £500 or £700 in his He wished to say, then, that he thought pocket, would be at liberty to compete the Amendment might be adopted with upon terms of perfect equality. He one alteration, which would cause the was far from saying that any of them increment to grow more slowly, because would get more than, or even as much as, £50 a year was undoubtedly too rapid, they deserved to get, but he was sure and the effect of such a proposal would that there were many hundreds of Engbe to place the non-permanent curate in lish curates whose mouths would water many cases in a better position than the at the mode in which the Bill dealt with permanent curate, The greatest diffi- curates in Ireland. Assuming, then, culty in the Bill was not how to apply it that on a rough estimate—though he as between the State and the body of the admitted this to be mere conjecture clergy, but to observe an accurate pro- the permanent curate on commutation portion in dealing with the various would receive £1,300, of which he classes concerned. Now, clearly, non-would surrender one-half to be relieved permanent curates must not be treated from duty, it was plain that the com. quite so favourably as permanent cu- pensation paid to the non-permanent rates. Under this Bill the permanent curate must be below that. In dealing curate would receive on the average, as with him there would be this important nearly as could be estimated, an annuity distinction—the sum paid to him would which would be commuted at between be coupled with no obligation; he would £1,300 and £1,400, subject to the con- receive it unconditionally. Consequently

, dition that he was to perform his duty though it might be very fair to give & according to arrangements with his in- minimum of £200, in consideration of cumbent, during the lifetime of the in- displacement from office, to every curate cumbent. Subject to this condition, and in Ireland, the sum should not be alto the consent of the incumbent and of lowed to rise to £600 except where the the Church Body, he would be able to non-permanent curate has served 50 commute his annuity, and the commuta- long that he might be said to have tion would vary according to the age of ceased to be capable of transplantation. the curate and the amount of his salary, A man from twenty-five to thirty-five but the average would be about the might go to England, Scotland, the Conamount stated. Of course, in commut- tinent, or anywhere else, but at fifty a ing the annuity, the obligations of ser- man's muscles were stiff

, and he was vice would be considered. The incum- not so ready to move into other coun. bent would say—“You connot commute tries. He should therefore propose that, without compounding in respect of the instead of £50 for every year's incre

ment, £25 should be substituted, the entirely a matter for the Church Body and effect of which would be that the maxi- the Bishop, the incumbent, or the curate, mum of £600 would be reached after with the consent of the incumbent, to twenty-four years' service that is, when determine upon what terms the annuity a man was approaching fifty years of should be surrendered and the commuage. He was bound to say on this sub- tation substituted. If they could reserve ject, that with certain happy exceptions, any of it for re-endowment they had the clergy were the most underpaid nothing to do with that, their duty being labourers in the country, but then it to acquit themselves from their obligawas impossible for the Government to tions the best way they could, and that make any change in their position, and was the best way that occurred to them. it would be not only foolish but cri- If more words were necessary to make minal to prevent it. The Amendment, that clear, the time would come for however, modified as he suggested, doing so. would, he believed, be one of the most MR. BERESFORD HOPE wished to liberal arrangements to be found in the know how the principle of the very

saluBill. The Committee would be justified tary improvement which had been introin going so far, but he thought they duced into the last clause, on the Motion would then be going far enough. of his hon. and learned Friend the Mem

DR. BALL said, he thought the right ber for Richmond, was to be applied to hon. Gentleman was under some mis- the case of the curates of the Irish apprehension as to the effect of his own Church, and how the difficulty was to be clause. Under Clause 23 the value of met of the competing claims of their the annuity would not be paid to the original curacies and of the general permanent curate, but to the repre- work of the entire community ? Let him sentative body of the Church, and take the instance, by way of making his would they not at once seize it for question clear, of a parish which was the benefit of the Church? He sug- tolerably well served by one incumbent, gested that the capitalized sum should but better by two-self and curate—and be paid to the curate with the consent of assume that the rector, from conscienthe Church Body. In either case the tious motives, had hitherto deemed it consent of the Church Body would be right that the work. should be done necessary, but Clause 23 seemed to make double rather than single-handed. But the Church Body owners of the amount the altered circumstances of the Irish for Church purposes.

Church, after the passing of this Bill, MR. GLADSTONE said, the point would lead him to take another view, raised by the right hon. and learned undertake his own parish single-handed Gentleman might deserve consideration and offer the use of his curate to the when they came to the clause, but as to Church Body. Well, then, the curate the intention of the Bill there was no happening to be removed elsewhere to a doubt whatever. The obligation of the place where there was need of spiritual State was to satisfy these annuities; but labour, was the rector, who was obliged it was not desirable to keep the State in to go on working all the harder because direct personal relations with each mem- his duties were performed single-handed, ber of the clerical body as paymaster and to be mulcted in Munster for the service annuitant. Consequently, they looked of his late curate done in Connaught, or, to the Church Body as one which might was, on the other hand, the curate beconveniently undertake this agency for cause he served in Connaught to lose his the State. For that purpose they were commutation and have to work as willing to overlook all questions of infirm mere voluntary minister ? Either alterlives, chances of resignation, and vacan- native involved a hardship and injustice. cies arising otherwise than from death; He wished to add that he had not spoken and, the whole of these lives being cal- on the second reading of the Bill, although culated at their value, the State would he thoroughly disliked and repudiated acquit itself of the obligation by hand- the whole scheme. That opinion of it ing over that sum to the Church Body he thought, however, he could express charged with the payment of the annuity. as emphatically in three words as in 300; There would then be absolute freedom but now that the Bill was in Committee as regarded the State with respect to the he perhaps might be allowed to offer a disposal of the money, and it would be few observations on the practical ques

[Committee-Clause 15.

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