At he had misapprehended the hon. and cussing the 14th clause, seemed at present learned Gentleman. He certainly had to be forgotten. They were then told that not mistaken the charge of illiberality when they came to the 15th clause they made by the hon. Member for Cam- would arrive at the proper time for disbridge University (Mr. B. Hope), and cussing the claims of the curates. But felt deeply complimented by the gentle they were at present dealing with that manly feeling and Batavian grace of his clause, and giving a life annuity to a classical allusion. So far from the Irish curate who was found to be a permanent Church being harshly treated, he main- curate at the period of the change, withtained that it was treated with justice, out the slightest attempt to carry on the with liberality, and even with gene- arrangement in favour of the incumbent. rosity. Assuming that glebes were not MR. GLADSTONE said, he did not a marketable property, they ought to think they were open to the observation have been put down at the value to the of his hon. and learned Friend. Church of at least £1,000,000. If he the time they were discussing the 14th thought the Irish curates would be dealt clause, they gave it as their opinion that, with unjustly by the proposed Amend- under that clause, it would be open to ment of the Government, he would be the incumbent to object before the the first to take their part. The argu- Commissioners on one or other of two ment with respect to it proceeded upon grounds—either that there was no case the assumption that the unendowed for declaring that there ever had been a Church of Ireland would afford no field permanent curate, or that the clergyman for the services of those gentlemen ; but acting at the time being was not such a he thought they would be the persons to curate. Beyond that they did not wish whom a new field would be opened. to go, and if anyone wished to proceed The incumbents, from age and long ser- further it was for him, and not for them, vice, would disappear; and, in computing to propose an Amendment to that effect. the compensation the curates would get DR. BALL said, that after the Comunder the Bill, the Committee must not mittee had decided against the Amendforget that the curates were a body that ment proposed from the Opposition side would not disappear from the stage; but of the House on the 14th clause, they that they would be transferred from one felt that it would be useless for them to position to another, and in addition re- proceed with the Amendments of which ceive the compensation to be given under they had given notice on the 15th clause. the Bill. He did not consider it was at MR. BENTINCK desired to have a all likely that the permanent curates clear statement of the course the Gowould be in a worse position than the vernment meant to take with respect to non-permanent curates. curates. After the able speech of the Question put, " That the words "The hon. and learned Member for Oxford (Mr. Commissioners'stand part of the Clause." Harcourt), the Chief Secretary for IreThe Committee divided :-Ayes 220 ; in a very low tone. [“Oh, oh!”] Those land addressed the Committee, but spoke Noes 107: Majority 113. hon. Members who cried out “ Oh!” MR. GLADSTONE moved to leave were not in the House at the time. He out at page 6, line 3, the words—"by should like to have a clear statement of his own free choice," and to insert, in- the intentions of the Government. stead without the incumbent's con- MR. GLADSTONE said, that the hon. This was to enlarge the scope of Member had been rather severe on those the words. By his own free choice" hon. Members who were not in their was not sufficiently extended. places at the time referred to, but he MR. DISRAELI said, that after the was sceptical as to the presence at that explanation given by the right hon. period of the hon. Member himself. Gentleman at an earlier period of the [Mr. BENTINCK: I was present during evening with respect to the 23rd clause, the whole debate.] In that case it was it would not be necessary that he should unfortunate that he had not made the take the sense of the Committee upon" intentions of the Government understood the point then under their consideration. by the hon. Member; but he had stated SIR ROUNDELL PALMER said, distinctly how far they could go in meetthat all that had been stated on the part ing the views of hon. Gentlemen with of the Government, when they were dis- respect to curates. The plan of the [Committee---Clause 15. sent." : Government was that a permanent cu- | Under the Poor Relief Act for Ireland rate, once declared to be so, should have three chaplains might be appointed to his annuity; and with respect to a non- workhouses, one connected with the Espermanent curate, they met the pro- tablished Church, another connected with posal of the hon. Member for Dublin the Presbyterian body, and the third a (Mr. Pim) by substituting £25 for £50. Roman Catholic. He wished to know Beyond that, with the exception of the how the right hon. Gentleman at the Amendment of which he had given head of the Government intended to deal Notice, the Government had no change with the chaplain connected with the to announce with respect to curates; but Established Church when that Church any proposal made by any hon. Member was disestablished ? would receive their attention. MR. GLADSTONE, in reply, said, LORD CLAUD HAMILTON asked, he thought that a provision would prowhether any provision would be made bably be required of a general nature, for curates incapacitated from duty by when they had ascertained all the cases mental or bodily infirmity ? of a somewhat similar kind as that reAmendment agreed to. ferred to, which they would have to in clude. The clause would be framed so MR. GLADSTONE said, he had now as to provide that where any person or to move an Amendment which would officer is employed on behalf of the reserve as an answer to the inquiry just ligious community which is now the made by the noble Lord (Lord Claud Established Church, such person or offiHamilton). He proposed, in line 4, cer shall continue to be employed hereafter “him,” to insert the words, “ or after in respect to the said religious by ill health or otherwise become in- community, although it shall have ceased capable of discharging the duties of such to be the Established Church. curacy.” LORD JOHN MANNERS asked wheAmendment agreed to. ther the right hon. Gentleman intended MR. PIM, who had given notice of an to introduce such Amendment in the Amendment in the clause by leaving present Bill? out, “ £200" and inserting is £50 for MR. GLADSTONE replied that that every year during which he shall have would depend upon the circumstances of the case. served as a curate,” observed that the Perhaps he would propose proposition of the right hon. Gentleman the clause in the present Bill; but, at at the head of the Government to insert all events, he would give notice of it. £25 instead of £50, was a satisfactory DR. BALL reminded the right hon. one, and he was quite prepared to ac Gentleman that there were many cases in Ireland in which persons by virtue of MR. GLADSTONE said, he was pre- certain privileges and prerogatives and the ecclesiastical office they held enjoyed , pared to recognize £200 as the proper minimum, and to alter four into eight administered trusts. He hoped that the years. The Amendment of the hon. right hon. Gentleman in framing his Gentleman (Mr. Pim) would then stand clause would include all these persons in it. thus Line 11, leave out 'two hundred pounds' and insert twenty-five pounds for every year during Bill. Clause ordered to stand part of the which he shall have served as a curate; Provided always, That in any case in which the period of service of any curate shall not amount to eight Clause 16 (Compensation to diocesan years, the Commissioners may make up such schoolmasters, clerks, and sextons). tuity to the sum of two hundred pounds ; Pro- MR. GLADSTONE proposed the invided also, That such gratuity shall in no case exceed the sum of six hundred pounds.'" sertion, in line 25, of “or district” after after the word “ diocesan.” Amendment agreed to. On Question, " That the Clause, as Agreed to. amended, stand part of the Bill," THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOE MR. E. W. VERNER said, he wished IRELAND (Mr. SULLIVAN) moved, line to ask a question which, he admitted, 25, to leave out “from any incumbent ought more properly to have been put or incumbents in respect of his or their when Clause 2 was under consideration. benefice or benefices,” and insert cept it. gra. “ Under any warrant of the Lord Lieutenant in must also be done to the large and imCouncil made under the provisions of the Act of the Session of the fifty-third year of the reign of portant interests—interests of his own His late Majesty King George the Third, chapter creation—which had to receive the surone hundred and seven, or any statutory amend plus after these claims had been satisment thereof." fied. There was not above twelve or Amendment agreed to. thirteen of these diocesan architects in the whole of Ireland, and their compenMR. BRODRICK said, that having sation would not amount to a very large had an opportunity of expressing his sum. No other class had so great a opinion, at an early stage, of the merits claim to a first charge on the funds as of the Bill, he had no wish to press un- those who were the first to suffer from necessarily upon the time of the Com- the change. He moved, page 6, line mittee. The object of his Amendment 27, after “benefices,'' to insertwas to do justice to a very small but de- • The amount of yearly salary or emoluments serving body of men, the diocesan archi- which any diocesan architect appointed under the tects, who were appointed under the 14 provisions of the act of the tourteenth and fif& 15 Vict., known as Napier's Act. The teenth years of Victoria is entitled to receive." Bishop appointed one in each diocese, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR and their duty was to superintend all IRELAND (Mr. SULLIVAN) said, the the alterations of the glebe houses, to compensation for officers connected with make periodical inspections, to report the Church would be considered with the on the repairs necessary, and to see that greatest care, and with the greatest those repairs were properly completed. anxiety to extend compensation to every They were, indeed, such useful function- case to which it could reasonably be exaries that he wished there were similar tended. But it had been found imposones on this side of the water. There sible to recognize the so-called office of was no provision in the Bill for compen- diocesan architect. There was no such sating these officers for the extinction of office known. The only authority for their employment. He had added the such an appointment was the Church words “or emoluments after “sala- Building Act of 1851, which gave the ries,” because they were not paid by de- Bishop power to appoint three or more finite yearly salaries, but by a commis- persons, one being a competent archision on the repairs they had superin- tect, to view the ecclesiastical buildings tended. One gentleman, who had filled and improvements. That was the provithis office for fifteen years, told him that sion under which these persons claimed his professional earnings from this source, to be diocesan architects; and, if they for the last three or four years, had ex- were to be compensated, he did not see ceeded £100 per annum. These offices why the other persons appointed on would not be continued because, as the those commissions might not claim comglebe houses fell in and were purchased pensation also. Again, the Bishop had under the provisions of the Bill, they be- power to appoint a “competent tradescame the property of the Church Body, man.” Did the hon. and learned Genwhich need not employ diocesan archi- tleman propose to compensate “competects unless it chose to do so. It was a tent tradesmen ?” The Government fair case for consideration, and, though could not accept this Amendment, behe did not say that the diocesan archi- cause the clause was based upon the tects were entitled to any large remu- reasonable supposition that officers conneration, they were entitled to some- nected with the Church whose offices the thing. He trusted that the House would law recognized were entitled to fair comon this subject emulate the spirit of the pensation; but this was an office which hon. and learned Member for Oxford it had been found impossible to recog(Mr. Harcourt) rather than that of the nize. He trusted the hon. and learned Chancellor of the Exchequer, who had Gentleman would not press his Amendsaid that, although they were prepared ment. to do justice to the Irish Church, yet Dr. BALL concurred in the opinion that justice did not mean liberality; that these could not be regarded as freeand that they would not legislate in the hold offices, but it had been usual to spirit of the First Minister of the Crown, name one architect in each diocese to who had declared that he was pre- perform the duties referred to. The pared to do justice, but that justice right hon. and learned Gentleman (the [Committee-Clause 16. a Attorney General for Ireland) might put ists was deserving of the consideration these persons in the 17th clause, and of the Committee. Some of the most give them one year's emoluments. distinguished men had filled the posi MR. PIM said, he hoped the Govern- tion, and some of the persons who at ment would accept that suggestion. present held the office were entitled to Amendment negatived. every respect and consideration ; but he could not accede to the proposition of MR. CHARLEY moved in page 6, the hon. Gentleman. He could, howafter line 27, to insert ever, propose for that class of persons “(2.) The amount of yearly salary which each better terms than those mentioned in organist of any cathedral, or of any church or Clause 17. In that clause one year's chapel in the said Church, is entitled to receive." salary was proposed. On the repreThe effect of that Amendment would be sentation and by the recommendation of to take the organists out of the 17th several persons representing churches in clause and to put them into the 16th. Ireland, particularly representing the It might be said that the 16th clause cathedral in Dublin, he had prepared an dealt only with freeholds, and that the Amendment to Clause 17, which he inoffice of an organist was not a freehold; tended to propose, and which he thought but the office was generally held quamdiu would meet the justice of every possible se bene gesserint and was therefore in the case, and would leave the Commissioners nature of a freehold. He held in his an unfettered discretion to deal with hand a list of organists in Christ Church cases of a peculiar character. Cathedral, Dublin, from 1595 to the pre- MR. LEFROY said, he thought the sent time, appended to which was a de- organists ought to have a life interest, claration of the chapter of that cathe- as their appointment had always been dral that the office of organist was a life for life. appointment, subject to good behaviour, MR. GLADSTONE said, he thought and that there had never been an in- that they should not mix up non-freestance of dismissal. Lord Stowell was hold offices with those that were freeof opinion that the salary of an organist hold. The duties of an organist were of could be charged upon a Church rate. an undefined character, and varied in The Ecclesiastical Commissioners of Ire- different churches, and it was hard to land, in the Return of their average say in what cases there would be a dimiannual expenditure, gave the sum of nution of their emoluments, and in what £1,410 as payable to organists, whilst cases no such diminution. the Irish Church Commissioners' Report MR. BENTINCK submitted that a contained a sum of £670 paid to or- great number of life interests which, ganists out of the economy fund an- strictly speaking, could not be called nexed to the several cathedrals. The freeholds, existed in cathedrals, and the organists, therefore, had as much vested organist's post was one of them. It was interest in the property of the Church not just that a person who had accepted as the incumbents, and in some out-of- a post on the presumption that it would the-way places, such as Tuam, there was be continued to him for life should be no private tuition on which they could dismissed with a single year's salary fall back if they were deprived of their simply because it could not be estabincome. There were, he believed, about lished in law that his interest in the thirty organists of cathedrals in Ireland, office was for life. It was well , howand (100 of churches; he was willing to ever, that the doubt as to whether the limit his Motion to the organists of appointment was for life arose in other cathedrals. case than that of organists. THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR ways been a matter of doubt whether nonIRELAND (Mr. SULLIVAN) explained capitular members of new cathedralsthat, in dealing with the question of com- those re-founded at the Reformationpensation, the Government found that had a freehold in their office or not; inthey should confine themselves to what deed, that point was distinctly raised in might be called freehold offices. A person the celebrated case of Dr. Whiston. holding the office of organist could not Supposing that the principle of disbe included among this class, and could establishment were to be applied to the . not consequently be placed in Clause 16. Church of England, what would be the He fully admitted that the case of organ- fate of those permanent non-capitular a It had al case. 1409 Irish Church {APRIL 22, 1869) Bill— Committee. 1410 MR. PIM admitted that the Govern- tion between vicars choral and choirmen. ment was right in not embracing those Vicars choral were in many cases a corgentlemen among those entitled to a poration, and those who enjoyed freefreehold interest, but he trusted that the hold offices would get compensation upon Commissioners would inquire into their that footing. On the other hand, stipen He thought that the organists diary choirmen were in the same position should be treated on the footing that as organists, and he saw no objection to they possessed a life interest in their putting them into Clause 17, under which situations. He proposed to amend the they would be entitled to a gratuity: Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman NR. BENTINCK urged the right by inserting the words, after the word hon. Gentleman to consent to the word compensation,” “ either by annual pay- “ stipendiary” in this clause. ment or by way of life annuity.” MR.VANČE said, that all the persons, MR. CHARLEY said, that having in whose favour he had moved his ascertained that his Amendment could | Amendment, wanted was to be allowed be discussed with more propriety on to remain where they were, and to be Clause 17, which referred to the organ- paid their annual salary as long as they ists, he begged to give notice that he performed their duty. He hoped the should move an Amendment upon the Government would agree to those terms. Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman Amendment negatived. at the head of the Government on that clause. MR. ASSHETON CROSS remarked MR. J. B. SMITH asked whether the that the clause provided for the remuhon. Member intended to include the neration of schoolmaster, clerk, and organ blowers in his Amendment ? sexton, but only as long as they conMR. CHARLEY said, that the ob- tinued to perform the duties of their servation of the hon. Member was con office. He thought that words ought to ceived in the spirit of the 17th clause, be inserted to insure them the remunein which the organists were classed with ration even if they ceased to perform He begged to withdraw their duty, provided that they ceased so his Amendment upon the present clause. to do without any fault of theirs. MR. GLADSTONE said, the suggesAmendment, by leave, withdrawn. tion would be considered. Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clause 17 (Compensation to organ- MR. GLADSTONE wished to insert, In many of the Irish cathedrals, particu- in page 7, line 2, after “fit” the words larly Armagh, they attracted, by large “And where the said Commissioners shall find salaries, men skilled in music from that any such person is or may be deprived of England and other countries; they were any income derived from any property or fund almost as necessary for the perfor- vosted in the said Commissioners under this Act, mance of the cathedral service as the they may pay to any such person such further sum by way of compensation as they shall, with clergymen themselves. Their position the consent of the Lords Commissioners of Her was as nearly as possible a freehold one, Majesty's Treasury, determine.” VOL. CXCV. THIRD SERIES.] 2 Z [Committee-Clause 17. the vergers. |