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Question put, * That the words pro- { pointed by any Act passed in the present Session posed to be left out stand part of the of Parliament" to put an end to the Establish

ment of the Church of Ireland, and to make proClause."

vision in respect to the temporalities thereof, The Committee divided :-Ayes 294; and in respect to the Royal College of MagNoes 194: Majority 100.

nooth,” such monies as the said Commissioners

of Church Temporalities may require to raise for Sir HERVEY BRUCE said, as it the purposes of the said Act; and that it is was past twelve o'clock, he thought the expedient to authorize the Commissioners of Her further progress of the Bill should be Majesty's Treasury to guarantee the repayment

to the said Commissioners for the Reduction of postponed, and accordingly moved that the National Debt of any monies so advanced. the Chairman report Progress.

House resumed. MR. GLADSTONE said, there was no other Amendment to the clause, and

Resolution to be reported upon Monday he hoped the Committee would not ob-next. ject to pass it. MR. DISRAELI said, the clause was

MILITIA BILL-[BILL 82.] a very important one, and he should

(Mr. Secretary Cardwell, Major Vivian.) himself approve their reporting Pro

THIRD READING. gress. But it would certainly be in unison with the usual practice to adopt Order for Third Reading read. the clause, and, therefore, he hoped his

GENERAL PERCY HERBERT called hon. Friend would not press his Motion. attention to the fact that the 2nd clause, Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

which gives power to attach officers Clause agreed to.

of the regular forces to the Militia, did

not embrace non-commissioned officers, House resumed.

which it was desirable to do. Committee report Progress; to sit

MR. CARDWELL said, he did not again upon Monday next.

see any objection to including non-com


Bill read the third time and passed. COMMITTEE. Considered in Committee.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (£17,100,000) BILL. (In the Committee.)

Bill “ to apply a sum out of the Consolidated

Fund to the Service of the year ending the thirtyMR. GLADSTONE in rising to pro- first day of March, one thousand eight hundred pose a Resolution of which he had given and seventy,” presented, and read the first time. Notice, said, that under the provisions of the Irish Church Bill what were, in point

CUSTOMS AND INLAND REVENUE DUTIES of law, advances would not be, in point of fact, advances, as far as regarded the

BILL. necessity for cash. They would be, in Bill “ to grant certain Duties of Customs and point of fact, credits upon paper. Com- Inland Revenue, and to repeal and alter other

Duties of Customs and Inland Revenue," pre. mutations might probably require large sented, and read the first time. [Bill 95.] advances of cash, which could be conveniently made, conformably to the Bill, by the Commissioners for the Reduc- COURTS OF JUSTICE SALARIES AND FUNDS tion of the National Debt; but as that

BILL. involved a public charge, it was neces- Bill " for amending the Law relating to the sary to have a Resolution to constitute Salaries, Experises, and Funds of Courts of Law it, and when that Resolution was re

in England," presented, and read the first time.

[Bill 96.] ported he should be able to place on the table various clauses which would ex

House adjourned at half after Twelve plain the financial part of the proposi

o'clock, till Monday nest. tion. He concluded by formally moving the Resolution.

Resolved, That the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt be authorized to advance, with the consent of the Commissioners of Iler Majesty's Treasury, to the Commissioners of Church Temporalities in Ireland to be ap


THE MARQUESS OF WESTMEATH : HOUSE OF LORDS, I hope that—I will not say the Govern

ment, for it is an abuse of words to call Monday, 26th April, 1869. them

a Government with regard to

their administration of the affairs of IreMINUTES.] — Sat First in Parliament- The land—I hope the Administration will,

Lord Cloncurry, after the death of his Father. Public Bills-First Reading-Adjutants (Jury) form us what is the maximum of assassi

on the part of the Prime Minister, inExemption * (75); Militia * (76). Second Reading-Sea Birds Preservation (54); nation that, in their opinion, ought to be Norfolk Island Bishopric * (73).

permitted before he thinks fit to suspend Select Committee Ecclesiastical Courts (2): the prosecution of the matter which he is

Clergy Discipline and Ecclesiastical Courts (26), nominated.

now undertaking in another place," for the

purpose of turning his attention to AGRARIAN OUTRAGES (IRELAND).

this important subject. When he introduced that measure the Prime Minister

spoke of it as a panacea for all the ills VISCOUNT LISMORE, who had given of Ireland ; but, though I am not going notice to ask, Whether, having regard to to anticipate the discussion of that questhe facts that within the last few months tion, I must say I have not the slightest five open-air assassinations — indepen- faith in it as a means of pacifying Iredent of other agrarian outrages-have land. Therefore, unless something imbeen perpetrated with absolute impunity portant has happened within the last in the one barony of Clanwilliam, in the few days, I do not think the Governcounty of Tipperary, it is the intention ment are entitled to any forbearance in of the Government to adopt any imme- this matter. diate measures, repressive or remedial, LORD CAIRNS: The answer to the for the protection of human life in that Question that was to have been put by district ?—having risen to put his Ques- the noble Viscount is a matter in which tion

we all take a deep interest, and thereEARL GRANVILLE: I wish to state fore, although the Question is not to be publicly, what I have already communi- put to-night, I should like to ask the cated privately to the noble Viscount, noble Earl opposite on what day he will that since I have been in the House I be prepared to give an answer to a simihave received a telegram from Earl lar Question; and also whether the reaSpencer, that he is desirous that the son why it cannot now be answered is Question of which the noble Viscount the personal convenience of the Lord has given notice should be postponed. Lieutenant; or whether it is because

ViscounT LISMORE: At the request there are measures in contemplation by of the noble Earl I shall for the present the Lord Lieutenant, the mention or withdraw my Notice ; but I reserve to discussion of which in this House would myself the full right to put the Question be inconvenient ? at a future time if I should think it EARL GRANVILLE: I am surprised necessary.

that the noble and learned Lord should THE MARQUESS OF BATH: It is all have concurred with the noble Marvery well for the noble Viscount to post- quess (the Marquess of Bath) in thinkpone the Question for the convenience of ing that this request of the Lord Lieuthe Lord Lieutenant of Ireland; but I tenant had anything to do with his think the convenience of gentlemen in personal convenience. I am sure that Ireland who are being murdered so fre- upon a subject of this sort your Lordquently ought also to be considered. At ships would not for a moment consider any rate, I think the Government should what would be for the convenience of take an early opportunity of stating to yourselves. The Lord Lieutenant's mothis House or to the other House what tive is that he thinks there are reasons measures they mean to adopt for the why the case should not be entered into pacification of Ireland, and in what way at this moment, because it might defeat they mean to deal with the land ques- the ends of justice. I am sure that is a tion, which is at the root and is the reason which your Lordships will all origin of the contempt and defiance of accept, and which will also prevent me all law which prevails, and is on the in- from fixing any exact day on which I crease in Ireland.

can undertake to answer the Question.

THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: The 'ment of so many spiritual Peers on the reason that the noble Earl has assigned Committee, for the Bishops could not be —that it would be inconvenient to the regarded on this question as representpublic service to answer the Question is ing the parochial clergy. He also reone which is always accepted by your gretted the omission of the noble and Lord-hips; but I think he ought to tell learned Lord on the Woolsack. us that the day is not far removed when desirable that the Committee should a discussion of this kind may, for the amalgamate the two Bills; but, when the credit of the House, be entered into. It measure came back, he hoped the House is impossible for this House to sit silent would not be debarred from canvassing when crimes like these continue, and are its provisions carefully in Committee of renewed almost daily. I have heard the Whole House. this moment of another frightful assassi- EARL GRANVILLE said, that the nation of a most respected and estimable House would be able to make any altermagistrate in Tipperary; and these an- ations in the Bill when it came down nouncements are now coming at the rate from the Committee. of two or three a week. It is impossible, I repeat, for the House of Lords under

Then the Lords following were named these circumstances, to refrain from ask- of the Committee:ing the Government when and how they L. Abp. Canterbury. V. Halifas. propose to interfere to put an end to this L. Abp. York.

L. Bp. Oxford.
Ld. President.

L. Bp. Ripon. state of things. Surely we are not ask

M. Salisbury.

L. Bp. Gloucester and ing too much of the noble Earl if we E. Shaftesbury.

Bristol. inquire whether, at an early day, he will E. Portsmouth.

L. Portman. allow the House to take this subject into

E. Carnarvon.

L. Westbury. its consideration ?

E. Beauchamp.

L. Cairns. EARL GRANVILLE: The answer I have already given to the noble and TENURE (IRELAND) BILL.-(No. 36.) learned Lord opposite is one that was (The Marquess of Clanricarde.) constantly given to us last year by the POSTPONEMENT OF COMMITTEE. noble Earl when he sat on this Bench,

Order of the Day for the House to be and it was always accepted by us without criticism. I trust that it is neither put into a Committee, read. disrespectful nor discourteous to your

Mored, “ That the House do now reLordships to state that Earl Spencer solve itself into a Committee.”—(The thinks that to answer exactly what the Marquess of Clanricarde.) noble Viscount demands, and to state EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, as I how we are going to deal with these stand in a somewhat peculiar position particular assassinations, would not only with regard to this Bill, I venture to ask convey information to your Lordships, your Lordships' indulgence in making a but also to those very persons whom it few observations upon it, and in referring is most desirable to leave in the dark.

to what passed on a former occasion.

Your Lordships will remember that the ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS BILL. noble Marquess (the Marquess of ClanCLERGY DISCIPLINE AND ECCLESIAS- ricarde) proposed the second reading TICAL COURTS BILL.

of the Bill in a remarkably temperate

speech, and in a tone of great courtesy NOMINATION OF COMMITTEE.

towards Her Majesty's Government. He Order of the Day for the Nomination defended its provisions, and took occasion of the Committee on these Bills read. to advert to certain revolutionary doc

EARL NELSON complained that, in trines with regard to the rights of proconsequence of the reduction of the num- perty, which he very properly denounced. ber of members of which the Committee It was my duty to follow him-not in was to consist-instead of seventeen lay order to give my individual opinion,

but and six spiritual Peers, as first proposed to state the decision at which the Gothe Committee would now be composed vernment, after serious and earnest deof ten lay and five spiritual Peers; so liberation, had arrived, the decision bethat the proportion between the lay and ing one in which I entirely concurred

. I spiritual elements had been materially stated that, in the opinion of the Governdisturbed. He objected to the appoint- ment, it would be desirable, if it were


possible, finally to settle this question at meant to respect the rights of property, once; but that the state of Parliamentary and he passed a very just eulogium on business made it impossible for them to the labours of the Committee-adding attempt to propose a measure this Ses- that he had attended all its meetings at sion with any likelihood of passing it which the services of any lawyer were into law. I further stated that an at- required. The only inference I can draw tempt followed by failure would not only is that the Committee was very seldom be discreditable to the Government, but in want of such services, for if the noble would be exceedingly prejudicial to the and learned Lord will refer to the numobject which we ali ħad in view; and ber of his attendances he will find that that the Government, while admitting they made no great tax on his time. He that the Bill contained many excellent expressed approval of the Bill, although provisions, thought the example of suc- it falls immeasurably short of the princicessive Governments was a proof that it ples which he laid down as a Law Officer was not sufficient to settle the question. of the Crown, in 1855, in a remarkable I then expressed a hope that, by making speech-principles which frightened all use of the labours of the Committee of the Conservative lawyers in the House your Lordships' House, and by carefully of Commons out of their seven senses. considering the different propositions He was, however, perfectly impartial, made by successive Governments, and for, while asking us to speak out, he other reasonable suggestions, they would asked noble Lords opposite to do the same. be able, while avoiding anything like a The noble Marquess opposite (the Marsubversion of the rights of property— quess of Salisbury) had already spoken, which the noble Marquess had denounced and had stated-a fact with which I was and which I had condemned—to frame not previously acquainted—his personal such a measure as would satisfy judicious objection to well-balanced and antithetical and intelligent men of both parties, and sentences, paying an unmerited compliwould effect a satisfactory settlement of ment to the slip-slop English in which I the relations of landlord and tenant. In had addressed your Lordships. The the course of the debate, moreover, we noble Marquess, with the greatest fairclearly explained that we would not take ness and candour, said he did not in the the unprecedented and most injudicious slightest degree complain of the Governcourse of publishing now an outline of ment for not attempting legislation on a scheme which we had no hope of em- the subject this year; but he laid down bodying in a Bill before next Session. a theory of which I have certainly some Well

, that course was criticized from doubts, as to the necessity of having no both sides of the House. My noble diplomatic reticence on the part of the Friend whom I do not see present (Lord Government—he did not even tell us Athlumney) advanced his views with what was the character of the declaration great moderation, and, speaking with which he wished us to make, and he rethe authority which his long attention to frained from saying whether he approved the subject gave him a right to do, he those provisions of the Government Bill gave a friendly warning to the Govern- which he had officially sanctioned, and ment of the difficulties which we should which were criticized by Members of this have to meet in introducing any provi- House. Well, the noble and learned sions beyond those contained in the Bill; Lord opposite (Lord Cairns) rose with at the same time he expressed his great considerable alacrity in response to the satisfaction with the assurance given by appeal of the noble and learned Lord my noble Friend (the Earl of Kimberley) (Lord Westbury); but, so far from statand myself that we should not propose ing his opinion, he did not even attempt anything in the least subversive of the to defend those provisions of the Bill of rights of property. The noble and the late Government which had been atlearned Lord (Lord Westbury) followed tacked—he gave no views of his own, him; and I `am bound to say that and did not even inform us whether he though he put a little more spirit into was of the same opinion with regard to his criticism than my noble Friend, his retrospective compensation as some years speech was a good-humoured one. He ago. The noble and learned Lord had indulged somewhat in a sneer at the recourse to a proceeding which I must Government having found it necessary say I think is not a very convenient one, to answer the question whether they and which I should have thought repugVOL. CXCV. (THIRD SERIES.

3 D

nant to his judicial habits. Without night, will not, on reflection, think that notice, without reference, without dates, was a desirable course. I will add he quoted from memory certain frag- another thing which cannot have escaped mentary sentences of speeches which he his strong insight and clear mind-that, remembered to have seen reported- when indulging in this exaggerated inwhere, he could not tell-and made by dignation and suspicion towards the two Members of the House of Commons, Government, he conveys to those who do who, of course, were not here to explain not know him as well as we do, to igor deny those quotations. The result norant persons in Ireland, that he has has been, as I anticipated at the moment, some secret means of knowing the hidden that both Mr. Gladstone and Mr. Bruce views of the Government which his words deny that they ever used the expressions do not fully express. The noble Earl or arguments attributed to them in the maintained that there were only two quotations of the noble and learned Lord, proper courses before us either to opas reported in The Times and the Standard pose the Bill, the greater part of the of last Wednesday. Another attack was details of which we approved, or to supmade on the Government by the noble port the second reading and amend it in Earl on the cross-Benches (Earl Grey.) Committee. Now, I must say that this He began by expressing regret at what advice does not come with particular I had said—and I am bound to say that favour from the noble Earl, who failed for the last twenty years I hardly re- to persuade the Committee to commit member half-a-dozen cases in which the themselves to the opinion that no further noble Earl, immediately following me in provisions should be inserted in the Bill debate, did not begin his speech with one than those it already contained, and who of two declarations—the one that he had on two occasions in this House contended heard with the deepest regret all I had that any further provisions that might be said, the other that strong as had been suggested must be of the most dangerous his previous opinion, that opinion had character. Putting that, however, aside, been intensified and strengthened by all it is obvious that to adopt this Bill, and the arguments I had used against it. change it in Committee, is tantamount The noble Earl went on to say that the to introducing a Bill of our own, but in course I had pursued was most undigni- a much less convenient way. My noble fied, and was unworthy of a person Friend says nothing is easier, if we choose, having the honour of being a Servant of than to legislate at once on this matter. the Crown. Moreover, because Her Now, it is all very well for my noble Majesty's Government, with a due sense Friend, who is perfectly irresponsible as of their responsibility, did not take the to the conduct of affairs in the other course which he pointed out and desired, House, to make such a declaration; but he held them solemnly responsible before I have drawn up a list of the business the House and the country for the out- which will already occupy that House. rages and murders in Ireland-things I will first take the Bills recommended which have been the bane and misery of Ireland for years, and the last outbreak which commenced before the present Government assumed Office. I stated the other day that I regard my noble Friend as a privileged person, and it is impossible that any personal attack will affect my regard and friendship for him; but I really would put it to him whether it was desirable that a man of his high character and reputation should set the first example of infusing a spirit of violence into our discussions on a subject which, above all others, requires the most judicial consideration, and which had been conducted up to that night with an utter absence of personal and party feeling. I am sure my noble Friend, though he has found one imitator to

by Her Majesty in her most gracious Speech. There is the Endowed Schools Bill, which is sure to lead to frequent discussions, on account of the religious and vested interests involved, when it comes up from the Select Committee. Then there is the Scotch Education Bill, in pressing which my noble Friend (the Duke of Argyll) has been very zealous, but which is not to be galloped through even in this House. There is a relating to Assessed Rates, and affecting the elective franchise, and which is sure, therefore, to excite discussion. Then there is the Bankruptcy Bill, and also the Bill for abolishing Imprisonment for Debt, measures in which legal and mercantile men take much interest. The County Financial Boards Bill, though

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