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Zanzibar; or whether any action is now | banks—most excellent institutions of contemplated in respect of the affairs of their kind—have really become now of the States bordering on the Persian very questionable advantage. When Gulf ?

we consider, too, how much the poor MR. GRANT DUFF said, in reply, lose by trusting their money with imthat no arrangement had yet been come perfect security, I think it very desirable, to about this very difficult matter, which without taking any unfair or unreasondid not tend to become less complicated, able course against the ordinary savings nor was any action contemplated at pre- banks, that we should endeavour to get sent with reference to the affairs of the the money of the poor placed where it States on the Persian Gulf.

would be perfectly secure.

MR. HIBBERŤ said, he would beg to

ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, If SAVINGS BANKS.-QUESTION.

he is aware that the expenses of the Post MR. CAWLEY said, he would beg Office Savings Bank is only 148. per cent ? to ask Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer,

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEWhether he is willing to give to the QUER: I do not see how that will trustees of ordinary Savings Banks au


my reply. thority to receive from any one depositor the same maximum amount in any

RATING OF MINES.-QUESTION. one year, and the same aggregate amount COLONEL DUNCOMBE said, he wished which it is proposed by the Bill now be- to ask the President of the Poor Law fore the House to confer upon Post Of- Board, If it his intention to introduce, fice Savings Banks ?

during the present Session, a Bill for the THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE- purpose of placing the rating of mines QUER: Sir, I see a great objection to on a more satisfactory footing? the proposal which the hon. Member MR. BRUCE said, in reply, that the makes. The objection forms itself in subject has been under the considerathis way. We pay to the Post Office tion of the Poor Law Board for a conSavings Banks, on deposit £2 108. per siderable time; but under the great cent interest, and to the ordinary savings pressure of business in the office it was banks £3 58. per cent. Now, the in- impossible that a Bill dealing with it terest of £3 58. per cent causes a loss could be brought forward in the present to the Government, and the general Session. tax-payer is, to that extent, a loser by the transaction, because it is the

POST OFFICE-COMMUNICATION WITII nature of this business to compel us to

SOUTH WALES,-QUESTION. buy stock when it is high, and to sell it when it is low. I do not think it de- MR. JONES said, he would beg to sirable, therefore, for the Government ask the Postmaster General, Whether to increase a business which is under the negotiation between the Post Office taken for the benefit of a class, how- authorities and the London and North ever deserving, but by which the Go- Western Railway Company for the convernment is an actuať loser. Then we veyance of letters from the Midland offer another alternative—the Post Office Counties and the North of England to Savings Bank, which gives to the de- the Western Counties of South Wales, positors the absolute and ample security viâ the Central Wales Railway, is conof the Government for every farthing cluded, and whether he is prepared to invested; for, unless the Government state the result ? becomes insolvent, they are sure to be THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON paid. The ordinary savings bank does said, in reply, that representations had not give that security. It gives to the been made to him on this subject by manager very sufficient security, but deputations from Wales; but he thought there is no security that the manager it `desirable, before negotiating with will not defraud the depositors, and if the North Western Railway, to see he does, the depositors have no remedy if the Great Western would be wilagainst the Government. The matter, ling to make such alterations in the therefore, goes to this—that we are giving conduct of their service as would give a larger interest to tempt persons to take the desired accommodation, because, if the worse security. Ordinary savings they did, their services extended over a larger space than the North Western including the landing of them, were could do. He had accordingly been in made by the United States Government, communication with the Great Western, i and Her Majesty's Government had not and arrangements were in progress by received any intimation that it was the which he hoped the greater part of intention of the United States Governthe improvements asked for by the hon. ment, or of any company in their emGentleman would be effected.

ploy, to land the mails at Plymouth.



QUESTION. MAJOR DICKSON said, he would beg

MR. ALDERMAN LAWRENCE said, he to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty, If would beg to ask the Secretary of State instructions have been given by the Ad- for War, Whether the expense of twelve miralty for the Government moorings in or fifteen hundred pounds a year incurred Dover Bay to be examined ; and, if so, for storing Saltpetre in the Docks and by whom the duty will be performed ?

private Warehouses may not be saved MR. CHILDERS said, in reply, that by storing the same in the Government there were two moorings in Dover Bay. depôts; and, whether he will state what As the House was aware, on Easter quantity of Saltpetre belonging to the Monday, an accident happened to one Government is at present stored in the of them, which ended in the loss of a Docks and private Warehouses ? brig, the tender to a training ship. An

MR. CARDWELL said, he entirely officer connected with one of the dock- agreed with his hon. Friend that this yards had been sent down to repair the would be a judicious piece of economybroken mooring, and the other would so judicious, indeed, that the stores of be examined at the same time.

saltpetre were now in course of removal

as his hon. Friend suggested, and were ROYAL PATRIOTIC FUND SCHOOL

now almost all removed. THE BOY M'GREGOR.- QUESTION.

THE CONVICT O'FARRELL, QUESTION. MR. LOCKE KING said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for

MR. NEWDEGATE said, he had put War, Whether there are not previous

a Notice on the Paper to ask the right letters to those which have been laid hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the upon the Table of the House, in answer Treasury, When he would bring forward to a Return to an Address moved for, his Motion to rescind the Order of the relating to the boy M Gregor, who was

House respecting the production of the placed in the Royal Patriotic Fund Papers from Australia? Since then he School ?

saw that the Notice to rescind was put MR. CARDWELL, in reply, said, all down for to-morrow, which was not a the letters it was thought necessary to Government night. He wished to ask include had been included in those pre

the right hon. Gentleman if he meant to sented. He would readily place those persevere in his Notice for to-morrow? kept back at the disposal of his hon.

MR. GLADSTONE said, the Notice to Friend, and if he thought necessary

which the hon. Gentleman referred stood would lay them on the table.

on the list of Notices for to-morrow, and

there was no reason why it should not POST OFFICE-NEW YORK MAILS.

It was his intention to press

it to-morrow. MR. EASTWICK said, he would beg to ask the Postmaster General, Whe

POST OFFICE-THE NORTII GERMAN ther the Bremen Company have made

CONFEDERATION.-QUESTION, arrangements with the Post Office to MR. HARDCASTLE said, he would land the Mails from New York at Ply- beg to ask the Postmaster General, mouth?

Whether any negotiation has taken THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON place with the North German Confederasaid, he had to state that the arrange- tion on the subject of postage ; and, if ments for the transmission of the nails so, when any reduction may be expected from the United States to this country, to take place in the rates at present

come on.



chargeable on letters and newspapers to believe that I had at all relinquished between England and Germany ? my desire to attain that result as one

THE MARQUESS of HARTINGTON which I thought highly important to the said, in reply, that negotiations took Protestant Episcopal Church in Ireland. place in November last at Berlin upon That Church ought not to subside into this subject, but the Prussian Govern- a sect, and so partake of the ultimate ment demanded too high rates for the degradation which I believe will be the transmission of mails in transit through fate of every sect in Ireland which has the North Germau Confederation, and to cope with the Roman Catholic Church, the negotiations were in consequence after the passing of this measure, the suspended.

dominant Church in Ireland. Although

I may have to apologize to some of even IRISH CHURCH BILL-[BILL 27.]

my own Friends for saying it, I do not (Mr. Dodson, Mr. Gladstone, Mr. John Bright, think that these sects will be able to comMr. Chichester Fortescue, Mr. Attorney

pete successfully with the organization, General for Ireland.)

the tradition, the discipline, and the learnCOMMITTEE. [Progress 23rd April.]

ing of that powerful Church, and there

fore it is that I feel called upon to opBill considered in Committee.

pose any arrangement which must result (In the Committee.)

in the Protestant Episcopal Church of IreClause 24 (Building charge to be paid not, however, the motive which has in

land subsiding into a mere sect. That is on commutation of annuity). DR. BALL said, he would

fluenced us in placing these Amendments

propose to omit these words in the clause, the effect upon the Paper. That was the motive

which induced us to oppose the second of which was to allow a deduction for repairs to be made from the building reading of the Bill, and which may in all charge, when the value of the life in probability induce us to oppose the third terests was commuted.

reading of the Bill. But when we entered

into Committee we assumed that this MR. GLADSTONE said, he could not accede to the Amendment. The Govern

Bill might pass into a law, and our obment were not seeking to make money in a shape as little disadvantageous as

ject was, if possible, that it should pass out of the glebe houses, and the Com. could be to the great body of our Promissioners would be no richer on account of them, and would not be reimbursed

testant fellow-countrymen in Ireland. for the money which would be necessary this clause and upon the clauses that

One object of these Amendments upon to obtain possession of them.

follow is to assert, and in some degree, Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. if possible, to secure, the vested rights Clause agreed to.

of the laity. It is not possible to define

the vested rights of the laity with the Clause 25 (Enactments with respect same precision as one can define the to churches).

vested rights of the incumbent in his MR. DISRAELI said: Sir, I ask benefice, which is simply that of a vested the permission of the Committee to right in a freehold. What may happen explain the motives by which I have hereafter I, of course, cannot say, but been influenced in proposing the Amend- as yet the opinion of the people of Engments which stand in my name upon land has changed so little with regard this and following clauses. The Attor- to the sacred character of a freehold, and ney General for Ireland (Mr. Sullivan) the constant nature of the rights which said the other night that the only object arise from it, that when the vested rights of these Amendments was to maintain of a person in a freehold are before Parthe connection between the Protestant liament for compensation no difficulty Episcopal Church in Ireland and the arises in inducing Parliament to view State, in order that the character of the case in a spirit of justice and of supremacy which now attaches to the liberality. But the vested rights of the Church might be maintained. Now, I laity in Ireland, although not susceptible have myself never for a moment at- of so precise a definition, are equally tempted to conceal that I thought that valid with those of a freeholder, and, a desirable object. I have never for perhaps, if the higher principles of a moment attempted to induce the House policy are considered, they become even

[Committee-Clause 25.


of greater importance. In all mea- tion of State supremacy should be given sures of this kind, necessarily revo- up, no reasonable concession ought to be lutionary in their character, the great withheld for a moment, and he appealed discontent that is created, and which be- to the right hon. Gentleman opposite to comes chronic in the country, generally, say whether he did not agree in those or, I may say, always, arises from the views, and in the spirit and policy which vested rights of the laity being disre- he so eloquently expressed upon that garded in effecting the settlement of the occasion. I do not know whether that question. The clergyman, although he appeal was arranged; but I know that dislikes the change, may be satisfied and the right hon. Gentleman the then Leader reconciled to it by the compensation he of the Opposition rose from his place with receives. Even when we abolished the almost prophetic promptness, and said monasteries in this country we gave pen- that he agreed with the right hon. Gensions to the monks. But the great mass tleman the Member for Birmingham, of the people, whose principles are dis- that that was the policy, and the only poregarded and outraged, and whose privi- licy, with which an issue of this gigantic leges and rights are diminished and de- character could be proposed. And the stroyed, are those who feel discontent, and right hon. Gentleman did not then refer they are the people whose discontent con- merely to vested interests and proprietary stitutes the permanent difficulty of the rights. Respecting these, of course, Government and the danger of the State. there could be no question; but the Therefore it is that I and those who right hon. Gentleman stated that every think with me conceived it to be of the legitimate claim would be considered in utmost importance that if this revolu- such a spirit as that, if there was a doubt, tionary measure and I use the word the benefit of it would be given in favour "revolutionary” in its true sense and of those on whom the measure for disnot in an invidious one—if this great establishing and disendowing the Church measure of unconstitutional change, or would press. That was the policy which of change in the constitution, was to the right hon. Gentleman expressed to pass, it was desirable that it should the last House of Commons when he pass with such conditions and arrange- wished it to adopt a course to which I ments as would create as little shock as will affix no epithet—I say I will affix possible to the feelings of the great no epithet to it, because I do not want body of the laity of the Protestant Epis- to do anything which could excite the copal Church in Ireland. And I am passions of the House in reference to bound to say that, when this policy was this Bill. But, understand that it was first introduced to our notice by the upon the description of his policy to which right hon. Gentleman then leading the I have just called attention the right Opposition, we understood that such was hon. Gentleman obtained the support of the feeling that influenced him in the Parliament for that policy. Was that matter as well as others who were policy changed during the General Elecamong the most influential supporters of tion? On the contrary, it was repeated; his Motion. It is only a little over a it was reiterated; it was passionately year ago since the right hon. Gentleman enforced and illustrated. I remember the Member for Birmingham addressed reading one speech of the right hon. the House upon this very point, and I Gentleman's, in which he said that when must say that, although I was opposed the question of the sacred buildings, the to the policy which he recommended I churches and the residences of the mientirely sympathized with his view—that nisters came to be considered, he felt if ever that policy were to be carried perfectly certain that if a bona fide wish into effect, it should be based upon the were expressed on the part of the Proprinciples to which I have referred. testant Episcopal body in Ireland to reThe right hon. Gentleman the President tain these churches for the purpose of of the Board of Trade on that occasion Divine worship, and the houses as resisaid that, in matters of this kind where dences for their ministers, there was not great changes were proposed to be ef- a man in England who would grudge fected, it was necessary that the Govern- that body the possession of them. So ment should come forward in a gracious the elections occurred under the same and generous spirit. But he said more expression of policy. There was a perthan that. He said that, if the ques- fect concurrence in the views expressed



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on the hustings by the right hon. Gen- | ments have been to carry into effect that tleman and one of the most considerable which the First Minister of the Crown of his Colleagues and those which they and the President of the Board of Trade had expressed in this House. The stated in this House and reiterated on country understood that if this great the hustings to be their object--namely, change was to be accomplished, it was that this settlement should be carried to be accomplished in-to use the lan- out in a “gracious and generous" and guage of the right hon. Gentleman the not in a "severe and sweeping" spirit. President of the Board of Trade—“a I want to have some explanation of the gracious and generous spirit.” So that reasons for a change from a “gracious the State supremacy was abolished there and generous” to a severe and sweep

no reasonable concession which ing” policy. A“gracious and generous might not without difficulty be made. settlement, indeed! The Chancellor of Well, Sir, I ask the House-Has this Bill the Exchequer, with that sympathy with been framed in that spirit? Is the the softer emotions of human nature clause which is before us framed in that which always distinguishes him, rose up spirit? We have had the policy of the in his place and said, Government in reference to this mea- “Generosity? What have we to do with genesure expressed by other Members of the rosity? If we are to be generous, you are asking Cabinet in this Parliament. When this us to be generous with the money of other folks.” Bill was introduced, and when I read Two inferences are to be drawn from and sifted its provisions, I felt that there that statement of the Chancellor of the was an extraordinary and glaring con- Exchequer. It may be very right to trast between it and the statements of sneer at a gracious and generous the right hon. Gentleman at the head of settlement of this great political question, the Government and the President of though we know that on its settlement the Board of Trade in the last Parlia- being a generous one the future welfare ment and on the hustings of the coun- and peace of Her Majesty's dominions try. But it was unnecessary for me to may depend; it may be very well to call the attention of the House to the sneer at generosity in this matter, but matter, because the Government, in an the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought authoritative and official manner, an- to recollect that he serves under a Prime nounced that they had entirely changed Minister pledged to a generous settletheir policy. The policy we had been ment. I want to know how he can reled to expect was a gracious and gene- concile that official statement of his with rous policy; but a Cabinet Minister the declaration and engagement of his peculiarly connected with the adminis- Chief. The second inference to be drawn tration of Ireland, the Chief Secretary from the Chancellor of the Exchequer is to the Lord Lieutenant, took an early that the generosity he disdains is being opportunity of boasting that the measure generous with the money of other folks. brought in by the Government was “a If this be so, how can we reconcile that severe and sweeping measure.' Now, sentiment with his support of the Bill I wish some explanation, because I before us, which proposes to take a large think we have arrived at a point at which portion of the property of the Church explanation is absolutely necessary. How and give it to the College of Maynooth ? can we reconcile statements so contrary? I do not grudge the College of Maynooth Then, we are told, as the Committee was complete and liberal compensation; but told last Friday by the Attorney General when the Chancellor of the Exchequer for Ireland, that our only object in pro- speaks against being generous with the posing these Amendments is a sinister money of other folks, he ought to recolobject--an object which we dare not lect that the policy he thus disowns is avow, and which would not be in har- adopted in the Bill now before us. I mony with the duty of the Committee. think, therefore, we ought to have some I am bound to vindicate these Amend- explanation as to the cause of the change ments, and principally the one I am now from a “gracious and generous” to a going to call attention to. There is, I “ severe and sweeping” settlement. I say, no sinister meaning in them. With believe the reason is notorious. I believe the exception to leave out Clause 2, the that some influence-that some delepurpose of which I candidly avowed in terious influence-has been introduced this House, the objects of our Amend- upon the scene, and has effected that

[Committee-Clause 25.

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