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grateful to the right hon. Gentleman at the other question as to whether any

1 the head of the Government for having distinction should be made between persevered in carrying it out, and he the two classes of residences. would find that instead of losing by it this point he should be glad to find he would gain the hearty support of the that the Government were prepared people of Ireland. He should support to make some concession. [“ No!"] the clause as it stood

He knew there was some difference of Sir GEORGE GREY said, he felt the opinion between hon. Gentlemen on that great difficulty in which the Government side of the House ; but they would er. were placed in dealing with this ques- cuse him if he and others who sat near tion; but he could not help expressing him, and who were anxious to give the his wish that, consistently with their Government the utmost support in carry. duty, they might consider themselves ing this measure, differed from them on justified in deferring, in some measure, this point. He felt bound to add that at least, to the opinion of many Mem- he entirely concurred in the equity, jusbers on that side of the House who had tice, and policy of the proposal made by given them a constant and steady sup- his right hon. Friend the President of port through all the stages of the Bill. the Board of Trade at Birmingham, that He thought they might have drawn a these residences should all be given to distinction between ecclesiastical resi- the Disestablished Church, and that the dences that were subject to no building principle of equality should be carried charge, and those that were subject to into effect by also giving residences both such a charge. With regard to the latter to the Roman Catholic and Presbyterian class, the proposal of the Government clergymen. He could not help thinking was perfectly defensible, and to surrender that they had been rather hasty in asthose glebes which had ro building suming that to carry out such a proposicharge without exacting payment would tion was impossible, and that there had be, in fact, endowing again the Dis- been a want of moral courage in abstainestablished Church to the amount of that ing from dealing with this question, and charge. But, with regard to those resi- taking the sense of Parliament upon it. dences which were subject to no building And although he believed there was a charge, it was hardly worth while to strong prejudice in the country against contend for the principle laid down by what was supposed to be the endowment the Government. They said that if these of a Church holding doctrines which so glebes were given to the Disestablished large a portion of the people believed Church it would be pro tanto an endow- (to be erroneous, yet such an arrangement. But the Government took credit ment would have been distinct from an for offering them to the Disestablished endowment in the ordinary sense of the Church on terms far below their real word, and would have had the effect of value. Now, if that were so, their prin producing religious equality more fully ciple would not be fully carried into effect, than will otherwise be the case. He and they must upon their own assump- did not know whether it was now too tion expect that dissatisfaction would be late for such a plan to be considered; created by their parting with that pro- but he thought that if it were carried perty for prices much below what they out it would afford by far the best soluwould fetch in the open market. With tion of the question. regard to the Amendment before the THE O'CONOR DON said, he agreed Committee, he had no hesitation in voting with his right hon. Friend the Member against it, because his right hon. Friend for Morpeth (Sir George Grey) that the (Mr. Gladstone) had clearly shown that adoption of the proposal of the right if the Committee adopted it and omitted hon. Gentleman the President of the the words, the whole of the residences, Board of Trade would establish perfect including those which were subject to religious equality, and to such a propothe building charge, would necessarily sal he would offer no opposition, but that be given to the Disestablished Church was not the question before the House. without exacting any payment for them. What would happen if the Government By voting against the Amendment of gave way upon the present question ? the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. There would then be places in Ireland Disraeli)—which was the only question where the Roman Catholics could not before the Committee -- they left open even obtain a site for erecting a church

or a building for their clergymen, while its merits as to feel that, in quoting the another religious body, which comprised expressions made use of by the now but a comparatively small portion of the Prime Minister, he had pledged himself population, would have obtained, free to do all in his power to hand over the of all expense, a church and a residence glebe houses to the Church Body withfor their minister. The right hon. Gen- out any payment whatever being made tleman the Member for Northampton- for them. Hon Members on the other shire (Mr. Hunt) had alluded to the side of the House could not have forMaynooth Grant. Now, he (The O'Conor gotten those expressions, and, if they Don) did not think that was the proper did, those on his side of the House well time for entering into any general dis- remembered the use that was made of cussion of that subject. But, as one of those expressions during the contest last the trustees of Maynooth College, and year. The question was, whether the on behalf of the Roman Catholics of supporters of the Government were Ireland, he would make a fair offer to s bound by the expressions they made use the right hon. Gentleman. They were of in the country to hand over the glebe quite willing that the proposed remission houses without any further payment. of its debt to Maynooth College, and the The questions of equality and justice proposed giving over of the buildings of had nothing to do with the matter; it that College to the trustees, should be was a question of conscientiousness. The expunged from the Bill, and that the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the College and all its offices and buildings Government had stated that further inshould be put up for sale and disposed formation had led him to believe he was of as the Government might think fit, wrong in his anticipations, and that he provided the same measure was extended was, therefore, not bound by what he to all the churches and glebe houses of had before said. The conscience of the the Established Church in Ireland. He hon. Member for Rochesterappeared to be would also make this further offer— more tender, and he had no doubt many that if the money which had been ex- others felt with him that they were being pended on the erection of Maynooth Col- placed in a false position by being urged lege and its appurtenances, exclusive of by their Leader to go back from what the sums granted by Parliament either they had said in canvassing, if not in for their erection or maintenance, were their speeches, during the contest last re-paid to the trustees of the Roman Ca- year. In the name of the Opposition tholic body in Ireland, they would be he thanked the hon. Member for Mayo ready to hand over those buildings the (Mr. G. H. Moore) for the only kind moment the Bill came into operation. word for the Irish clergy, backed by the They would, in fact, rather receive back offer of a deed which had come from the

a the money expended on the buildings Government side of the House during from other sources than Parliamentary this debate; and he thanked the ComGrants, than to have such large, and, mittee for the hearing accorded to him. to some extent, unsuitable erections SIR JOHN GRAY appealed to the thrown upon their hands when the Par- Government not to abandon a vital prinliamentary Grant was withdrawn. When ciple of the Bill. If the right hon. so much was said, therefore, of the ad- Gentleman (Mr. Bright) who had sugvantages to Roman Catholics of May- gested that an equal amount of glebe nooth, it was sufficient to say that they lands be given to Catholics, Presbyteriwere willing to give up all those advan- ans, and Wesleyans, and that the existtages on being re-paid the money ex- ing Protestant glebe houses and lands pended from sources other than the Par- form the standard, as to amount, he liamentary Grants made for this purpose could understand the proposition as one on the buildings of the establishment. based on the principle of equality. But

MR. STEWART HARDY pointed that was not his proposition. The sugout that the Committee had wandered gestion made upon the other side was from the question which had been put that the glebe houses were built by the from the Chair, and to which he proposed incumbents, and were their own — not to address himself. The hon. Member State property or part of the public for Rochester (Mr. P. Wykeham-Martin) fund enjoyed by the State Church. If did not, apparently, so much object to that were so, why did not the heirs of the proposal of the Government upon the builders claim and retain them. But

[Committee-Clause 27.


it was not so. These houses were all built as part of a contract with the State. When the incumbent came into possession, he came in on the condition of building a parochial residence, or maintaining it if built. That is the law to this day; it was the law at all times, and the old charters of the first Charles, under which such large grants of the glebe lands were given to the Church in Ulster out of the lands of the Catholic owners who were expelled, conveyed these lands on the express condition that a parochial residence be built within three years," and maintained in good repair. All the charters contained a

covenant that the incumbents and "their successors, rectors and vicars" should build houses "of stone or brick, with lime and mortar;" and in default, that the King should enter, seize the issues, and profits by the dean, archdeacon, and two justices of the peace, and expend the same in building mansions. In all the grants and in every Act now in force, down to the Act of 1851, known as Napier's Act, the identical principle of sequestration in case of default was included. The glebe houses, then, were as much parts of public property as the glebe lands, for the incumbent got the land and incumbency on the condition of building a house and maintaining it for himself and handing it down to his successors in good repair. But they had been told it was ungenerous not to give up the glebe houses in globo. He wished to remind the Committee that all the houses that were not incumbered with building charges, were, under the Bill, to be handed over, free of charge, to the new body. The Commissioners would have to pay the building charges, wherever they existed; and to hand them over, without purchase, would not only be giving a present, as was the case with the uncharged houses, but would be buying with public money from private individuals, in order to make gifts to the Church community. These building charges were due to the heirs of the incumbents by the succeeding incumbents, and would not go back, in any form, to the State. The public must pay them; and having paid them it was not consistent with the principle of the Bill to hand over the purchased property as a new endowment for the Church, and he hoped the Government would not do it.

Question put, "That the words 'upon the payment to the Commissioners of such sum as is hereinafter mentioned, that is to say,' stand part of the Clause." Noes 227: Majority 91. The Committee divided:-Ayes 318;

Acland, T. D.


Cogan, rt. hn. W. H. F.
Colebrooke, Sir T. E.
Coleridge, Sir J. D.
Collier, Sir R. P.
Colthurst, Sir G. C.
Cowen, J.

Cowper, hon. H. F.
Craufurd, E. H. J.

Crossley, Sir F.
Dalglish, R.
Dalrymple, D.
D'Arcey, M. P.
Davie, Sir H. R. F.
Davies, R.
Davison, J. R.
Delahunty, J.
De La Poer, E.
Denison, E.

Clay, J. Agar-Ellis, hn. L. G. F. Clive, Col. E. Akroyd, E. Allen, W. S. Amcotts, Col. W. C. Amory, J. H. Anstruther, Sir R. Anderson, G. Antrobus, E. Armitstead, G. Ayrton, A. S. Aytoun, R. S. Backhouse, E. Baines, E. Baker, R. B. W. Barry, A. H. S. Bass, M. A. Baxter, W. E. Bazley, T. Beaumont, Capt. F. Beaumont, S. A. Beaumont, W. B. Bentall, E. H. Blake, J. A. Biddulph, M. Blennerhassett, Sir R. Bolckow, H. W. F. Bonham-Carter, J. Bouverie, rt. hon. E. P. Bowring, E. A. Brady, J. Brand, right hon. H. Brassey, H. A. Brewer, Dr. Bright, rt. hon. J. Bright, J. (Manchester) Brocklehurst, W. C. Brown, A. H. Bruce, Lord C. Bruce, rt. hon. H. A. Burke, Viscount Buller, Sir E. M. Bury, Viscount Cadogan, hon. F. W. Campbell, H. Candlish, J.

Brinckman, Capt.

Carington, hon. Cap. W.
Cardwell, rt. hon. E.
Carnegie, hon. C.
Carter, Mr. Alderman
Cartwright, W. C.
Castlerosse, Viscount
Cavendish, Lord F. C.
Cavendish, Lord G.
Chadwick, D.
Chambers, M.
Chambers, T.

Cave, T.

Denman, hon. G.
Dent, J. D.
Devereux, R. J.
Dickinson, S. S.
Digby, K. T.
Dilke, C. W.
Dillwyn, L. L.
Dixon, G.
Dodds, J.
Downing, M'C.
Dowse, R.
Duff, M. E. G.
Duff, R. W.
Dundas, F.

Edwardes, hon. Col. W.
Edwards, H.
Egerton, Capt. hon. F.
Enfield, Viscount
Ennis, J. J.
Erskine, Vice-Ad. J. E.
Esmonde, Sir J.

Ewing, H. E. C.
Eykyn, R.

Fagan, Captain
Fawcett, H.

FitzGerald, right hon.

Lord O. A.

Fletcher, I.
Fordyce, W. D.
Forster, C.

Fitzmaurice, Lord E.

Forster, rt. hon. W. E.
Fortescue, rt. hon, C. P.
Fortescue, hon. D. F.
Fothergill, R.
Fowler, W.
Gavin, Major
Gilpin, C.

Childers, rt. hn. H.C.E. Gladstone, W. H.
Cholmeley, Capt.
Cholmeley, Sir M.

Gladstone, rt. hn, W. E.

Goldsmid, Sir F. H.
Gower, hon. E. F. L.

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Onslow, G.

Tollemache, hon. F. J.

Torrens, R. R.

Young, G.


Glyn, G. G.

Tracy, hon. C. R. D. II. Adam, W. P.

Hoskyns, C. Wren

Howard, hon. C. W. G.

Hughes, T.

Hughes, W. B.

Hutt, rt. hon. Sir W.

Hyde, Lord

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O'Loghlen, rt. hon. Sir Allen, Major

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Annesley, hon. Col. H.
Archdall, Capt. M.
Arkwright, A. P.

Arkwright, R.
Bagge, Sir W.

Bailey, Sir J. R.
Ball, J. T.
Baring, T.
Barnett, H.

Barrington, Viscount
Barttelot, Colonel
Bateson, Sir T.
Bathurst, A. A.
Beach, Sir M. H.
Beach, W. W. B.
Bective, Earl of
Benyon, R.
Booth, Sir R. G.
Bourke, Hon. R.
Bright, R.

Brise, Colonel R.
Broadley, W. H. H.
Brodrick, hon. W.
Bruce, Sir H. H.
Bruen, H.

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Courtenay, Viscount

Crichton, Viscount

Croft, Sir H. G. D. Cross, R. A.

Cubitt, G.

Curzon, Viscount

Dalrymple, C.

Damer, Capt. Dawson-
Dawson, R. P.
De Grey, hon. T.
Denison, C. B.
Dimsdale, R.
Disraeli, rt. hon. B.
Dowdeswell, W. E.
Du Pre, C. G.
Dyott, Colonel R.
Eaton, H. W.
Egerton, hon. A. F.
Egerton, E. C.
Egerton, Sir P. G.
Egerton, hon. W.
Elliot, G.

Elphinstone, Sir J.D.H.
Ewing, A. O.
Fellowes, E.

Figgins, J.

Finch, G. H.

Floyer, J.

Butler-Johnstone, H. A. Forde, Colonel

Cave, right hon. S.
Cawley, C. E.

Cecil, Lord E. H. B. G.
Chaplin, H.
Charley, W. T.
Child, Sir S.

Clifton, Sir R. J.
Clive, Col. hon. G. W.
Clowes, S. W.

Cole, Col. hon. H. A.
Collins, T.

Foljambe, F. J. S.

Forester, rt. hon. Gen.

Fowler, R. N.

Galway, Viscount

Gilpin, Colonel

Goldney, G.

Gooch, Sir D.
Gore, J. R. O.
Gore, W. R. O.
Grant, Col. hon. J.
Graves, S. R.
Gray, Lieut.-Col.
Greaves, E.
Greene, E.

[Committee-Clause 27.

Gregory, G. B.
Guest, A. E.

Gurney, rt. hon. R.
Hambro, C.
Hamilton, Lord C.

North, Colonel
Northcote, right hon.
Sir S. H.
O'Neill, hon. E.
Paget, R. H.

VISCOUNT CRICHTON asked the Attorney General for Ireland whether the Church Body would have power to dispose of any glebe houses that might be Pakington, rt. hn. Sir J. conveyed to them by the Commissioners? In some cases it might be desirable that they should do so, with the view of purchasing more suitable buildings.

Palk, Sir L.

Hamilton, Marquess of Palmer, Sir R.

Hamilton, Lord G.

Hamilton, I. T.

Hardy, rt. hon. G.

Hardy, J.

Hardy, J. S.

Hay, Sir J. C. D.
Henley, rt. hon. J. W.
Henniker - Major, hon.

J. M.
Henry, J. S.
Herbert, rt. hn. Gen. P.
Hermon, E.
Hervey, Lord A. H. C.
Hesketh, Sir T. G.
Heygate, Sir F. W.
Hick, J.

Hildyard, T. B. T.
Hill, A. S.

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Parker, Major W.
Peek, II. W.

Peel, rt. hon. Sir R.
Pell, A.
Pemberton, E. L.
Percy, Earl
Phipps, C. P.
Raikes, H. C.
Read, C. S.
Ridley, M. W.
Round, J.
Sandon, Viscount
Saunderson, E.
Sclater-Booth, G.
Scourfield, J. H.
Selwin Ibbetson,
H. J.
Seymour, G. H.
Shirley, S. E.
Sidebottom, J.
Simonds, W. B.
Smith, A.
Smith, F. C.

Smith, R.
Smith, S. G.
Smith, W. H.
Stanley, hon. F.
Stanley, Lord
Starkie, J. P. C.
Stopford, S. G.
Stronge, Sir J. M.
Sturt, H. G.


Sturt, Lieut.-Col. N.
Sykes, C.
Talbot, J. G.
Taylor, rt. hon. Col.
Thynne, Lord H. F.
Tipping, W.
Tollemache, J.
Trevor, Lord A. E. II.
Turner, C.
Turnor, E.
Vance, J.
Vandeleur, Colonel
Verner, E. W.
Verner, W.
Vickers, S.

Walpole, rt. hon. S. H.
Walsh, hon. A.

Welby, W. E.
Wells, W.

Lowther, J.

Lowther, W.

Malcolm, J. W.

Waterhouse, S.

Manners, rt. hon. Ld. J.

March, Earl of

Meller, Colonel

Mellor, T. W.

Milles, hon. G. W.

Mills, C. H.

Mitford, W. T.

Wethered, T. 0.
Wheelhouse, W. S. J.
Whitmore, H.
Williams, C. H.
Williams, F. M.

Montagu, rt. hn.Lord R. Wilmot, H.

Moore, G. H.

Morgan, C. O.

Morgan, hon. Major
Mowbray, rt. hn. J. R.
Neville-Grenville, R.
Newdegate, C. N.
Newport, Viscount

Winn, R.

Wise, H. C.
Wright, Colonel

Wyndham, hon. P.


Noel, Hon. G. J.
Dyke, W. H.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. SULLIVAN) said, there I would be no restraint whatever in the matter referred to by the noble Lord.

SIR ROUNDELL PALMER said, he had heard, with surprise, the answer of the right hon. and learned Gentleman. His strong impression was that, as the Church Body would take under this Bill, and as this Bill did not give any power of alienation, there would be restraint.

LORD JOHN MANNERS said, perhaps the learned Attorney General for Ireland would turn his attention to the point, and, if necessary, make an alteration in the Bill to remove all doubt upon the subject.

SIR ROUNDELL PALMER assumed that it was the intention of the Government that tenants holding under Church leases should, after the passing of this Bill, have the right of renewal which they now possessed. He thought it would be desirable to introduce a provision which would make this matter more clear.

DR. BALL suggested that a clause should be introduced which would more clearly define the power of the Church Body to deal with individuals in respect of houses and land.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. SULLIVAN) said, that in his opinion, and that of other lawyers, the leasing power of Bishops and the right of tenants to have renewals were strictly preserved in this Bill. At the same time, he admitted that it was desirable to use words of abundant caution in Bills of this kind, and therefore the matter would be further considered.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 28 (Power to convey additional land to church body).

SIR GEORGE JENKINSON said, that he had given notice of an Amendment in line 42; but, after the division that had just been taken, he felt that he had no chance of inducing the Committee to adopt it. He hoped that the Government would consider the subject, and

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