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and fully adopted by the Convocation. ceding 1660 and the period which had The right hon. Gentleman at the head elapsed since that time. of the Government said that Strafford did MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE not allow them to say “Yes” or “No." inquired whether it was proposed to But in 1634 the Church in Ireland was limit the Amendment to post-Reformain the same condition as it was at pre- tion grants ? sent, and whatever bequests were given MR. GATHORNE HARDY replied to the Protestant Church were given to in the affirmative. it as severed from the Church of Rome, and as severed from Presbyterianism by

Question, “That the words since the Episcopacy. With respect to 1641, the year' stand part of the Clause," put, and right hon. and learned Gentleman the agreed to. Attorney General for Ireland had ap- MR. GATHORNE HARDY proposed pealed to the great violence of the time an Amendment to alter the date in the when the Churches and glebes were clause from “ 1660” to “1560.” taken possession of by the Roman Catholics, and said that there was an in

Amendment proposed, to leave out

the word “ sixteen in order to insert tention that some terms should be made

the word " fifteen." with them. Those terms, however, were

- (Mr. Gathorne

Hardy.) never made, and it was usurpation on their part to take possession of the glebes MR. GLADSTONE: I must detain and churches. That usurpation arose in the House for a few words, for I find consequence of the great violence of the that the issue has changed at the latest times; but that circumstance could not moment. We have been debating all alter the condition of the Irish Church, night the entire removal of the limit. which was the same now as it was then. What we are now called on to do is to The right hon. Gentleman at the head of recognize the principle of private enthe Government had laid down the princi- dowment as to the basis of our measure ple that the bequests in order to come as far back as it can go—that is to say, within the benefit of the Bill must be for 300 years beneficial in its operation bequests to a definite religious persua- to Protestantism, and when we have sion, and such, it must be admitted, was gone back these 300 years, we then the character of the Irish Church from come to 400 more, during which the the time of the Reformation. How, Irish Church was historically, undoubtthen, could it be shown that there was edly, and undeniably, Papal. We then anything different in the state of the stop the principle of private endowment Irish Church in 1660 ? There was only and refuse to apply it on behalf of the restoration of the King; and the Act Roman Catholics, and that in a measure of Uniformity then passed did not alter which is fundamentally based on relithe creed of the Church, but only bound gious equality. the Church down to a particular way of MR. DISRAELI: I do not think the testing the creed, and to a certain mode issue to which the right hon. Gentleof action in the conduct of Divine service, man refers has ever been introduced but it did not alter that service mate- into this debate. The real issue before rially. The hon. and learned Member us is very simple ; but we are dealing for Oxford (Mr. Harcourt) had adverted only with the Protestant Episcopal to him personally. All that he would Church, and the clause of the right hon. say was that the arguments of the hon. Gentleman which I propose to amend and learned Gentleman were not ad- refers only to that; and the argument of dressed to the question before the House, the right hon. Gentleman in introducing and when he was arguing as to the it was solely confined to the Protestant question of altering endowments at Ox- Episcopal Church. He says-"I have ford, there was never any intention of fixed the year 1660, because that is the taking them away. The hon. and learned first time in which I find a legislative Gentleman argued against protecting character and form given to the Irish private endowments at all. He (Mr. Church," and the argument has been Gathorne Hardy) contended that a case that, on the contrary, from the moment had been made out for protecting pri- the Protestant Episcopal Church was invate endowments, and that there was troduced into Ireland by Elizabeth, there no difference between the century pre- has been a continuous spirit there, and the VOL. CXCV. (THIRD SERIES.]

3 Q [Committee--Clause 29,

same form, and the same character, and the same shape have been maintained. Therefore, the opinion of the Committee has not for a moment been diverted to any other subject, and we have hitherto been arguing substantially whether the post-Reformation endowments by private persons shall be respected in this spolia

tion of the Protestant Church.

Question put, "That the word 'sixteen' stand part of the Clause."

FitzPatrick, rt. hn.J.W.
Fletcher, I.
Fordyce, W. D.
Forster, C.
Forster, rt. hon. W. E.
Fortescue, rt. hon. C. P.
Fortescue, hon. D. F.
Fothergill, R.
Fowler, W.
Gavin, Major

Gilpin, C.

Lyttelton, hon. C. G.
M'Arthur, W.
M'Clean, J. R.
MacEvoy, E.
Macfie, R. A.
Mackintosh, E. W.
Maguire, J. F.
M'Lagan, P.
M'Laren, D.

Maitland, Sir A. C.R.G.
Magniac, C.

Gladstone, rt. hn. W. E. Marling, S. S.
Gladstone, W. H.
Goldsmid, Sir F. H.

The Committee divided:-Ayes 306; Goschen, rt. hon. G. J.

Noes 220 Majority 86.

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Gourley, E. T

Gower, hon. E. F. L.
Graham, W.

Gray, Sir J.

Gregory, W. H.
Greville, Captain
Greville-Nugent, Col.
Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.
Grieve, J. J.
Grosvenor, Earl
Grosvenor, Lord R.
Grove, T. F.
Hadfield, G.

Hamilton, E. W. T.
Ilamilton, J. G. C.
Harcourt, W. G. G.V.V.
Harris, J. D.

Hartington, Marquess of
Haviland-Burke, E.
Hay, Lord J.
Henderson, J.
Henley, Lord

Herbert, H. A.
Hibbert, J. T.
Hoare, Sir H. A.
Hodgkinson, G.
Holms, J.

Hoskyns, C. Wren

Beaumont, W. B.

Bentall, E. H.

Blake, J. A.

Delahunty, J.

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James, H.

Brand, rt. hon. H.

Digby, K. T.

Jardine, R.

Brassey, H. A.

Dilke, C. W.

Brassey, T.

Brewer, Dr.

Bright, rt. hon. J.

Bright, J. (Manchester)
Brinckman, Captain
Brocklehurst, W. C.

Brogden, A.

Brown, A. H.

Bruce, Lord C.

Bruce, rt. hon. II. A.

Buller, Sir E. M.

Dillwyn, L. L.
Dodds, J.
Downing, M'C.
Dowse, R.

Duff, M. E. G.

Duff, R. W.

Dundas, F.

Edwardes, hon. Col. W.

Edwards, H.

Egerton, Capt. hon. F.
Ellice, E.

Enfield, Viscount

Ennis, J. J.

Howard, hon. C. W. G.
Hughes, W. B.
Hutt, rt. hon. Sir W.
Hyde, Lord

Jessel, G.
Johnston, A.
Johnstone, Sir H.
King, hon. P. J. L.
Kingscote, Colonel
Kinnaird, hon. A. F.
Kirk, W.

Knatchbull - Hugessen,
E. H.
Lawrence, J. C.

Erskine, Vice-Ad, J. E. Leatham, E. A.

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Lawrence, W.

Ramsden, Sir J. W.

Lawson, Sir W.

Layard, rt. hon. A. H.
Lea, T.

Lefevre, G. J. S.

Lewis, J. D.

Lloyd, Sir T. D.
Loch, G.

FitzGerald, rt. hn. Lord

Fitzmaurice, Lord E.

Locke, J.

Lowe, rt. hon. R.

Russell, A.

Lush, Dr.

Russell, H.

Lusk, A.

Rylands, P.

Bury, Viscount

Buxton, C.

Campbell, H.

Candlish, J.

Esmonde, Sir J.

Carter, Mr. Ald.

Cardwell, rt. hon. E.

Carnegie, hon. C.

Cartwright, W. C.
Castlerosse, Viscount
Cave, T.

Ewing, H. E. C.

Carington, hn. Cap. W.

Eykyn, R.

Fagan, Captain

Fawcett, H.

O. A.

Rathbone, W.

Rebow, J. G.

Reed, C.

Richard, H.
Richards, E. M.

Robertson, D.
Roden, W. S.

Rothschild, Brn.M.A.de

Rothschild, N. M. de

St. Aubyn, J.
Tollemache, hon. F.J. Gooch, Sir D.

Morgan, hon Major St. Lawrence, Viscount Tomline, G.

Gore, J. R. O.

Mowbray, rt. hon. J.R. Salomons, Mr. Ald. Torrens, R. R.

Gore, W. R. O.

Neville-Grenville, R. Samuda, J. D'A. Torrens, W. T. M'C. Grant, Colonel hon. J. Newdegate, C. N. Samuelson, B. Tracy, hon. C. R. D. H. Graves, S. R.

Newport, Viscount
Samuelson, II, B. Trevelyan, G. 0. Gray, Lieut.-colonel Nicholson, W.
Sartoris, E.J.
Verney, Sir H.
Greaves, E.

North, Colonel
Scott, Sir W.
Vivian, A. P.
Greene, E.

Northcote, rt. hon. Sir
Seely, C.
Vivian, H. H.
Gregory, G. B.

S. H. Shaw, R.

Vivian, Cap. hn.J.C.W. Guest, A. E.
Shaw, W.

O'Neill, hon. E.
Wedderburn, Sir D. Gurney, rt, hon. R.
Sherlock, D.

Paget, R. H.
Weguelin, T. M. Hambro, C.
Sherriff, A. C.

Pakington, rt, hon. Sir
Wells, W.
Hamilton, Lord C.

J.
Simeon, Sir J.
West, H. W.

Hamilton, Lord G.
Simon, Mr. Serjeant

Palk, Sir L.
Westhead, J. P. B. Hamilton, I. T.

Palmer, Sir R.
Smith, J. B.
Whalley, G. H.

Hamilton, Marquess of Parker, Major W.
Smith, T. E.
Whatman, J.

Hardy, rt. hon. G. Peek, H. W.
Stacpoole, W.
Whitbread, s.
Hardy, J.

Peel, A.
Stanley, hon. W. O. White, hon. Cap. C.

Hardy, J. S.

Peel, rt, hon. Sir R. Stansfeld, rt. hon. J. Whitwell, J.

Hay, Sir J. C. D. Pemberton, E. L.
Stapleton, J.
Whitworth, T.

Headlam, rt, hon. T. E. Percy, Earl
Stepney, Colonel Williams, W.

Henley, rt. hon. J. W.
Stevenson, J. C.

Phipps, C. P.
Williamson, Sir H. Henniker - Major, hon. Raikes, H. C.
Stone, W. H.
Wingfield, Sir C.

J. M.
Strutt, hon. H.

Ridley, M. W.
Winterbotham, H. S. P. Henry, J.S.

Round, J.
Sullivan, rt. hon. E. Young, A. W.

Herbert, rt. hon. Gen.P. Sandon, Viscount
Sykes, Col. W. H.
Young, G.
llermon, E.

Saunderson, E.
Synan, E. J.

TELLERS.

Hervey, Lord A. H. C. Sclater-Booth, G.
Talbot, C. R. M. Glyn, G. G.

Hesketh, Sir T. G. Scourfield, J. EI.
Taylor, P. A.
Adam, W. P.

Heygate, Sir F. W. Selwin - Ibbetson, Sir
NOES.

Hick, J.

H. J.

Hildyard, T. B, T.
Adderley, rt. hon. C. B. Clowes, S. W.

Shirley, S. E.
Hill, A. S.

Sidebottom, J.
Akroyd, E.
Cole, Col. hon. H. A. Hoare, P. M.

Simonds, W. B.
Allen, Major
Collins, T.
Holford, R. S.

Smith, A.
Amphlett, R. P.
Conolly, T.

Holmesdale, Viscount Smith, F. C.
Annesley, hon. Col. H. Corrance, F. S.

Holt, J. M.
Archdall, Capt. M.

Smith, R.
Courtenay, Viscount Hope, A. J. B. B

Smith, S. G.
Arkwright, Aug. P. Crichton, Viscount

Hornby, E. K.

Smith, W. H. Arkwright, R.

Croft, Sir H. G. D. Howes, E.
Bagge, Sir W.

Stanley, Hon. F.
Cross, R. A.

Hunt, rt, hon, G, W.
Bailey, Sir J. R.

Stanley, Lord
Cubitt, G.
Hutton, J.

Starkie, J. P. C.
Ball, J. T.
Curzon, Viscount

Ingram, H. F. M.
Baring, T.

Stopford, S. G.
Dalrymple, c.

Jenkinson, Sir G. S.
Barnett, H.

Stronge, Sir J. M.
Damer, Capt. Dawson- Johnston, W.
Barttelot, Colonel

Sturt, H. G.
Dawson, R. P.

Jones, J.
Bateson, Sir T.

Sturt, Lt. Col. N.
De Grey, hon.T.
Bathurst, A. A.

Kavanagh, A. MacM. Sykes, C.
Denison, C. B.

Kekewich, S. T.
Beach, Sir M. H.

Talbot, J. G.
Dick, F.

Keown, W.
Beach, W. W. B.

Taylor, rt. hon. Col. Dimsdale, R. Bective, Earl of

Knight, F. W.

Tollemache, J.
Disraeli, rt. hon. B. Knox. llon. Col. S.
Biddulph, M.

Trevor, Lord A. E. H.
Du Pre, C. G.
Laird, J.

Turner, C.
Bingham, Lord
Dyott, Col. R.

Langton, W. H. P. G.
Booth, Sir R. G.

Turnor, E.
Eaton, H. W.
Lefroy, A.

Vance, J.
Bourke, hon. R.
Egerton, hon. A. F.

Legh, W.J.
Bright, R.

Verner, E. W.
Egerton, E. c.

Lennox, Lord G. G. Verner, W.
Brise, Col. R.

Egerton, Sir P. G. Lennox, Lord H. G.
Broadley, W. H. H.

Walpole, hon. F.
Egerton, hon. W. Liddell, hon. H. G.
Brodrick, hon. W.

Walpole, rt. hon. S. H.
Elliot, G.

Lindsay, Hon. Col. C. Walsh, hon. A.
Bruce, Sir H. H. Elphinstone, Sir J. D.H. | Lindsay, Col. R. L. Waterhouse, S.
Bruen, H.
Feilden, H. M.

Lopes, 11. c.
Buckley, Sir E.

Welby, W. E.
Fellowes, E.

Lowther, J.
Butler-Johnstone, H. A. Fielden, J.

Wethered, T. 0.
Lowther, W.

Wheelhouse, W. S. J.
Cameron, D.
Figgins, J.
Malcolm, J. W.

Whitmore, I. Cartwright, F. Finch, G. H.

Manners, Lord G. J.
Cave, rt. hon. S.

Williams, C. H.
Floyer, J.

Manners, rt. hn, Lord J. Williams, F. M.
Cecil, Lord E, H, B.G. Forde, Colonel

March, Earl of

Winn, R.
Chaplin, H.
Forester, rt. hon. Gen. Mellor, T. W.

Wise, H. C.
Charley, W.T.
Fowler, R. N.

Milles, hon. G. W.
Child, Sir S.

Wright, Colonel
Galway, Viscount Mills, C. H.
Clifton, Sir R.J.

Wynn, Sir W. W.
Garlies, Lord

Montagu, rt. hon. Lord
Clive, Col. E.
Gilpin, Col.

R.
Clive, Col. hon, G, W.

Noel, G. J.
Goldney, G.
Morgan, C. 0.

Dyke, W. 11.
3 Q 2 [Committee-Clause 29.

TELLERS.

Mr. DISRAELI then moved the fol-, Ulster professed the Presbyterian form lowing Amendment:

of religion, and were induced to go over Line 28 after “one" leave out “but,” and to Ireland in consequence of the proinsert, “and in determining whether any property mises of the Government to give assistso claimed is a private endowment it shall be law- ance to their Church. He confessed he ful for the Commissioners to receive and act upon sympathized very much with these Pressuch historical and other evidences as may seem to them to be satisfactory, although the same may

byterians, and thought an endowment not be evidence of a legal character, and also to for them ought to be preserved. He allow the reasonable costs, charges, and expenses felt that a great deal was to be said of such application, and of tracing the history of in favour of those Presbyterians. The such endowments."

total amount in dispute was not more MR. GLADSTONE remarked that the than £30,000 or £40,000 per annum, Amendment divided itself into two parts and this sum would provide for the —the first relating to the character of parochial system in that province and of the evidence upon which the Com- the services of religion in parishes where missioners were to act, and the second to there were respectable, not to say nuthe question of costs. With respect to merous, congregations; for it was an unthe first part he would simply remark doubted fact that the Church population that, although he hoped the Commis- in Ulster, if equally divided, amounted to sioners would embrace in their number an average of 580 individuals in each a strong infusion of real power of in- parish. Was it right, he would ask, vestigation, and possess a sufficient know- to put a stop to the parochial sysledge of the habits and rules by which tem when the congregation was so nutheir inquiries ought to be directed, they merous ? The hon. and learned Member yet would not be bound by the technical for the city of Oxford (Mr. Harcourt), rules of evidence in any way. The rea- had stated that every trust must be subsonable object of the right hon. Gentle-ject to revision at the end of a certain man, so far as that point was concerned, number of years; but the hon. Gentlemight, therefore, be regarded as being man had omitted to state that revisions already attained. As to the allowance of this kind invariably occurred on the of costs, he did not think the present supposition that the original trust had clause was the most convenient part of either expired or entirely changed in its the Bill to specify anything on that sub-character. With regard to Ulster, how. ject; but he entirely concurred with the ever, nothing of the kind had occurred. right hon. Gentleman in the view which There the parochial system was still rehe took in the matter, and words to carry quired, and the congregations were at that view into effect would be introduced the present moment in existence. The into the Bill.

right hon. Gentleman at the head of the MR. GATHORNE HARDY replied Government admitted that documents that, under those circumstances, it was might be found by which endowments to not necessary to press the Amendment. localities could be traced. At this late

hour he would not go fully into the Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

argument, but would content himself by Mr. DISRAELI moved, in line 33, to asking the right hon. Gentleman wheleave out “within twenty-five years be-ther it was wise to refuse to listen to the fore the passing of this Act," and insert united cry of the most loyal and populous “since the year one thousand eight part of Ireland. Why should they be hundred."

mixed

up

in the treatment of the treason.

able part of Ireland ? Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed, in page 13, SiR FREDERICK W. HEYGATE, line 42, at the end of the Clause, to add in rising to move an Amendment, of the words, which he had given notice, on line 42, observed that, since its purport had been in the Commissioners consists of glebe lands, or

When any real property so becoming vested so eloquently explained by the hon. other hereditaments which have been approMember for Mid - Lincolnshire (Mr. priated, or granted, by or in pursuance of ang Chaplin), it would be unnecessary for Statute, or Royal Grant, or Letters Patent, since him to enter at any length into the the second year of Queen Elizabeth, for the en

dowment of any rectory, vicarage, or other paruhistory of the Plantation of Ulster. A chial benefice, the Commissioners shall, on the large proportion of those who settled in application of the said representative body, made

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within six months after the first day of January tleman's denial of the hon. Baronet's one thousand eight hundred and seventy-one, by request was not so well founded as he order vest such property in such representative seemed to imagine. The question at body, subject to any life interest subsisting therein."-(Sir Frederick Heygate.)

issue was not whether any Royal grants

should be taken into consideration; but MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE that the grants made by the London said, it must be evident to the Com- companies to the Irish Church should mittee that it would be impossible for be necessarily considered before that the Government, in common consistency, Church was swept from the face of to agree to the Amendment, because the the earth by a tyrannical majority. grants referred to by the hon. Baronet That question had two aspects—one as were in no sense private grants, but in it affected the Protestants and the other the fullest sense of the words grants of as it affected the Catholics. The right a public character. Indeed, the very of the Protestant landlords of Ireland to words used in the Amendment stamped their estates depended upon the Act of them with that character. Not only Settlement. But what was the Catholic were these Royal grants of the Crown, view of the matter? Mr. O'Connell had but it was an interesting historical fact, often alluded in that House to the Act which was not without some bearing on of Settlement, and always in terms of the present discussion, that in the main the greatest reprobation. "Mr. O'Connell these were not grants of new lands for had held out to his followers the repeal the first time devoted to the purposes of of the Union and the resumption of the the Reformed Church, but were almost forfeited estates; and the ignis fatuus solely restoration of the old Church presented by that great agitator to his lands. (Mr. CONOLLY: Not at all.] It countrymen was now being offered to was, he believed, a matter capable of them by the right hon. Gentleman at historical proof that these lands had in the head of the Government. If by this the main belonged to the old Church, Bill they tore up the first page of the and had either been directly handed over Act of Settlement the estates of the Irish by Elizabeth to the Reformed Church, or landlords would come to be dealt with as had been restored to it, after having the next stage of the transaction. The passed for a brief period into the hands most serious interests hung upon the of lay occupiers, who had obtained them clause they were discussing. They were by means which it was not necessary for not only disestablishing and disendowhim to specify on the present occasion. ing the Church, but striking a heavy The broad facts werethat these were Royal blow at the loyal relations between grants made by the Crown to the Na- Ulster and this country, and destroying tional State Church of Ireland; and now the peace and harmony of Ireland. that that Church was about to cease to Those great questions were hardly to be exist it would be extremely inconsistent settled by a majority rushing in after if those public grants were treated as dinner to vote on a matter which they though they were of a private nature. had not carefully considered ; and it For these reasons he hoped the Com- would be a serious thing if, about the mittee would not agree to the Amend- 12th of July next, they heard of somement.

thing in the North of Ireland which MR. CONOLLY hoped the right hon. would show that the Plantation of Gentleman would not deny that his hon. Ulster was not ignored there, as a maFriend (Sir Frederick Heygate) was jority of that House seemed to suppose. Member for the county of Londonderry, LORD CLAUD HAMILTON said, he because his audacious—he would not say was sorry that that subject had been insolent—denial—[“Order.”] – mooted at so late an hour, and he would

THE CHAIRMAN intimated that the reserve to himself the full right of enterhon. Gentleman was approaching to the ing into it on another occasion. He use of expressions which were not Par- would now, however, just notice the unliamentary.

satisfactory manner in which the Prime MR. CONOLLY said he would with- Minister had met the speech of the draw the expression, which had slipped hon. Member for Mid-Lincolnshire (Mr. from him by mistake, for no one knew Chaplin), the ability of which the right his right hon. Friend's amenity more hon. Gentleman had fully acknowledged. than he did. But the right hon. Gen- The right hon. Gentleman admitted that

[Committee-Clause 29.

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