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upon the society they left, and no claim regular periodical valuations should be upon the society they entered, and were made of each lodge in the kingdom. without any remedy at all. That was a The objection hitherto was the cost. But state of things that ought to be re- this was a difficulty which might be remedied by the House. They had done too moved. It would be well to consider much by legislation or too little, because whether the Board of Trade could not poor people joined a society under the sanction the appointment of a compesupposition that because the rules had tent actuary to make these valuations. been certified by Mr. Tidd Pratt all was Stability would be secured to these soright and legal. But when Mr. Tidd cieties by compelling them to make a Pratt certified the rules, all he said was quinquennial or a septennial valuation that the rules were not contrary to law of their assets. He was happy to say as put before him, and Mr. Tidd Pratt that the Friendly Societies themselves did not mean to intimate that he was were becoming sensible of the importsatisfied that the tables of those societies ance of these valuations. Every rewere correct. Mr. Johnson-referring port from the head-quarters of those to the Liverpool societies in a pamphlet societies for the last four or five years, -stated that the extravagant expendi- he believed, insisted on the necessity ture was without parallel. The tables for a valuation. He hoped the Sewere in many cases drawn up by actu- cretary of State for the Home Departaries who never saw the rules, and who ment would carry into effect the wishes certainly would not have certified to the of the conductors of those societies in tables if they had known that so large that regard by introducing a Bill to rean amount of the receipts went for ma- quire that such returns should be sent, nagement. It had been announced that and that such valuations should be made. Government would bring in a Bill to It was too much the fashion of writers allow insurances of small amount to be to assert that all Foresters and Odd effected in the savings bank department Fellow Societies were insolvent. Mr. of the Post Office, but from the returns Neison, the late actuary, gave his opiof the expenses already incurred in ma- nion some years ago that the Odd Felnaging that business he doubted whether lows Societies were insolvent to the exit would pay. Next, he would refer to tent of £9,000,000; but his son, Mr. such large societies as the Odd Fellows Neison, actuary, now estimated their and Foresters. The Odd Fellows Asso- liabilities at £2,000,000, and stated that ciation consisted of 412,000 members, the bulk of that amount was due from and the receipts last year amounted the Odd Fellows Societies in Lancashire, to £499,000. The expenditure was Yorkshire, Derbyshire, and Cheshire. £326,000, and the gain on the whole of With the exception of these four counthe operations of the year was £172,000. ties, Mr. Neison believed that the Odd The valuation of their property was Fellows Friendly Societies by means of £2,600,000, or more than £6 per head increased payments might be placed for every member. The Foresters had on a sound basis. He (Mr. Richards) altogether over 300,000 members last was confident that by the aid of proyear; the receipts amounted to £366,840; per legislation and the enlightened maexpended, £273,000; gain on the opera- nagement of the gentlemen who were tions of the year, £93,000. It was said at the head of them, these societies, inby the secretary that £40,000 ought to stead of being insolvent, would bebe put to another account, but after so come one of the great institutions of doing the gain by the operations of last this country. A great deal of laughter year would be more than £50,000. The was frequently occasioned by the regalia total assets of the Foresters were over and processions of Odd Fellows Socie£1,000,000, so that each of the 300,000 ties. It must not be supposed that all members had £3 98. 9d. to the good. who joined those societies approved of Much might be said in favour of these all they did. At one of the late gathersocieties, but still there was an obverse to ings of Odd Fellows Societies, one of the picture. The members, for instance, their leading men, Mr. Fletcher, said had not yet become sufficiently alive that during the twenty-five years he had to the necessity of a valuation of their been connected with them he had not property, and it would be necessary in expended ld. in docorating himself for legislating on the subject to provide that a procession, and he hoped the time

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would come when the Odd Fellows So- pointment of a Commission for the purcieties would sweep away from them- pose of obtaining further information as selves that which other people looked to Odd Fellows and Foresters, and more upon as humbug. Again, on the ques- particularly with respect to Burial Societion of remunerating the landlord for ties? the hire of a lodge-room by purchasing MR. BONHAM-CARTER said, that beer instead of paying in cash, Mr. for the last twenty years, with the assistKennedy, of Dublin, lately addressed ance, and under the guidance of Mr. the Foresters in indignant terms against Sotheron Estcourt, he had taken a deep that practice, and stated that, in Ire- interest in this question. land, no court would dare to have ing with most of what had just fallen beer on the council table, much less to from his hon. Friend (Mr. Richards), he enter in their accounts a charge for the could not quite coincide in the opinion payment of it, and he trusted that this that the existing evils were all susceptiimprovement would soon extend to all ble of an easy and immediate remedy parts of England. These were the opi- by legislation. He looked with satisfacnions expressed by members of those so- tion on the great progress that had been cieties. He (Mr. Richards) hoped that made by Friendly Societies of late years. the societies would, ere long, clear them- A very startling attack had been made selves of these abuses, and take up the on the solvency of the Odd Fellows position which really belonged to them some twenty-two or twenty-three years —that of being the great insurance so- ago, which had very much to do with cieties of the working classes. It might the reform of that body; and it was be said that it would be much the readier greatly to the credit of the working-men way for working men to go to an insur- that, in spite of evil report, they had rance office at once. But that was not gone resolutely on until they had reached his view of the matter. He thought it a a position in which they were trusted matter of great importance that they and perfectly solvent. He looked upon should themselves have a share in the these institutions as splendid examples management of their own business. He of the foresight and self-denial of the believed that it was just that feature in better members of the working classes ; these societies which had constituted and if hon. Gentlemen had followed the a great element in their success, and efforts of those men they would have which gave them a special value. It been sensible of what an up-hill fight made them, in fact, a great means of they had to make in order to reach that teaching the working classes the duties position, and how they had gone on year of citizenship, and he believed that the by year endeavouring to improve those future of this country would be a great with whom they were associated. He deal better than its past, by the edu- did not deny that there might be a case cation which a great many men

re- for legislative action, but with respect to ceived in the Odd Fellows and societies the great societies, he would say let them of that description. As an honorary minimize their legislation. The Commember of one of them he might state mittee which sat upon the subject of that the order and decorum with which Friendly Societies had, in the first intheir meetings were conducted, equalled stance, thought it would be possible to the order and decorum in that House. apply stringent remedies to the abuses Every member who entered the room which were formerly so rife; but furhad to make the same acknowledgment ther consideration had satisfied them of the authority in the chair as was that it would be better to trust to the made by Members entering that House. good sense of the working men themThere was no swearing, and neither po- selves. It had given great satisfaction litical nor religious questions were al- to Mr. Sotheron Estcourt himself, and lowed to be introduced. He called upon other friends of the societies, to find that the Secretary of State for the Home De- the men who belonged to them had repartment to assist these men in making sponded so completely to the confidence their savings safe. He wished to be in that had been placed in them. There formed whether the Government were was nothing that the great clubs more prepared to legislate on this subject, dreaded than that this feeling of confiand if not, whether they would assent dence should be broken into by any into a Committee of Inquiry, or the ap- terference. They were, and would be VOL. CXCV. (THIRD SERIES. ]


quite satisfied with the law as it stood, not at all surprised at the mastery of his though there might be some little points subject which he had exhibited that of detail which might call for a slight evening; and he only regretted that remedy. The question of Burial Socie- there was not a fuller attendance of hon. ties, however, stood on a totally different Members to hear the hon. Gentleman's footing. They speculated in the most masterly, though maiden, speech as a cruel manner on the affection, grief, and Member of Parliament. It was quite ignorance of poor people, whom they true that the importance of that question induced to make great sacrifices, and could hardly be exaggerated. It affected whose money they took, and then when millions of the working class, and affected the time for meeting the claim came they them in a manner that was of the greatwould say they could only give this or est possible interest to the House and that small sum, and the poor people in the country. What they wanted to do the time of their distress had often no was to increase the habits of providence alternative but to accept what was offered and forethought among the working them. He thought his hon. Friend had, class; and whatever gave them a secuat all events, made out a case for in- rity that their savings and sacrifices quiry. An immense body of men, many should not be lost to them was a matter of them the flower of the working- of vital importance not only to that class, classes, were interested in the question ; but to all other classes whose prosperity and there were but few who really knew so greatly depended upon theirs. That what great credit was due to these poor being so, Parliament had not been unpeople for the self-denial they practised mindful of its duty; for, during the last weekly, monthly, and yearly, and what thirty or forty years, its attention had a cruel thing it was for them to find in been from time to time occupied with the the end, perhaps after twenty years' sub- question of these societies, and occupied scription, that there was nothing to de- with it not quite in vain, because, as was pend on after all. Great credit was due clear from what they had heard that to the Earl of Lichfield for his attempt night, where the working men availed at legislation, and if his right hon. themselves of the power offered them by Friend the Secretary of State for the law they had succeeded in establishing Home Department should not hold out societies on a firm and solid basis. That a hope that he would himself take up had happened as publicity had brought the question, he had no doubt that the home to them the knowledge of what Earl of Lichfield would press the matter constituted the security of those societies, again in “ another place.” In the county and almost every year it was found that in which he (Mr. Bonham-Carter) re- that which had been the shame of those sided a large proportion of the inmates societies was gradually disappearing. of the poorhouses were persons who had Larger masses of the working people belonged to Friendly Societies that had were seen attaching themselves to the broken down. What he would urge on larger and more stable societies, and the Government was not to allow that leaving those small and unsound sothe unsound societies, which brought so cieties which had wrought so much many to destitution, should go on without misery and ruin. Knowing how strong legislation. He was not sanguine that the love of independence and the jeathe Government could do anything by lousy of Government interference were legislation on the subject this year, or, among the working classes, he greatly indeed, that anything could be done upon doubted whether Parliament

or the it at all way of legislation ; but if, State could do much more than it had by means of inquiry or otherwise, they done in that matter. What had been could help the people to distinguish be- done had been done mainly in the pretween good and bad institutions of that paration or sanctioning of rules on the kind they would render a most valuable part of the Government, and alsoservice to the numerous class interested though not very successfully, he adin that important question.

mitted-in giving publicity to the acMR. BRUCE, having long known the counts of those societies. The hon. earnest and practical interest taken by Member for Cardiganshire suggested the hon. Member for Cardiganshire that an actuary for these institutions (Mr. Richards) in all that concerned the should be appointed—[Mr. RICHARDS : well-being of the working classes, was Sanctioned.] --well, sanctioned by the

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Government, whose duty it should be to many of whom took a growing interest investigate their tables, to examine their in the debates of that House, and that accounts, and see from time to time whe- they would be led, with time and inther they stood on a firm basis. But creasing knowledge, more and more to what the hon. Gentleman recommended adopt securer methods of providing the Government to do on behalf of the against old age and evil days. Friendly Societies it appeared to him they could do without much trouble on their own behalf. The case of the INCUMBERED ESTATES COURT (IREBurial Societies was a very different one,

LAND)-EARL OF LANESBOROUGH'S and the hon. Gentleman had been more

ESTATE.-QUESTION. successful in establishing the existence CAPTAIN ARCHDALL said, he rose to of a great evil—which, indeed, had been ask Mr. Attorney General for Ireland, If fully and repeatedly explained in Mr. his attention has been called to a recent Tidd Pratt's Annual Reports—than in decision of the Irish Court of Chancery suggesting a suitable remedy. It was

on an Appeal arising out of a conveyance said the more ignorant portion of the of a portion of the estate of the Earl of working classes were the victims of de- Lanesborough to a Mrs. Catherine Reilly, signing men, who went about the coun- the purchaser of a portion of a neightry making attractive statements to them, bouring property sold in the Incumbered and inducing them to subscribe to so- Estates Court; and whether it is intended cieties which were, in fact, bubble insti- to propose any amendment of the Law tutions; but the best remedy for that which sanctions the sale of incumbered esseemed to him to be the spread of greater | tates in Ireland ? Every man who owned knowledge among the classes imme- an acre of land in Ireland was deeply diately concerned. Parliament could concerned in this matter, which was a hardly be asked to prohibit the existence glaring act of robbery perpetrated by the of those Burial Societies, although some Incumbered Estates Court. He would persons thought they contained the germs beg leave to read a statement of the of much mischief. The fact was there facts from a letter by the Hon. Cavendish were honest and dishonest societies. He Butler. In the year 1865, a portion of the did not know whether means could be estate of Loftus Tottenham, Esq., situfound for bringing the societies into a ated in the county of Fermanagh, was better condition, except by the one simple advertised for sale by the Landed Esmethod of publishing statements of their tates Court. As this estate was conaccounts, and thus enabling the working tiguous to the estate of the Earl of classes to obtain accurate knowledge of Lanesborough, in accordance with the the good and stable societies as distin, practice of the court, notice of the proguished from those which were of a bad posed sale, a rental, and copies of maps and bubble character. Hewould leave the of the estate, were submitted to the remedy, therefore, to time and education. agent to Lord Lanesborough, in order But if his hon. Friend were dissatisfied that he might satisfy himself of the corwith that and wished, at a proper oppor- rectness of the boundaries. No error tunity, to move for a Committee of Inquiry in this respect appearing on the face of into that question, no opposition to the the maps, the sale was allowed to proMotion would be offered by the Govern- ceed. À certain Catherine Reilly rented ment. The inquiry need not be a long a portion of the Tottenham estate, conone, and it would be a matter for re- taining 16 acres, 3 roods, 29 perches. joicing if its result should be to show At the sale she purchased the fee simple that Parliament, without infringing on of this land, which was separated from the laws laid down for its general guid- the estate of the Earl of Lanesborough ance in dealing with such subjects, could by a deep ditch and a high quickset do something effectual to save the work- hedge. À Landed Estates Court title ing classes from the evils to which they was given to her, and nothing further were exposed. The hon. Gentleman de transpired until the year 1867, two years served thanks for the able manner in after the purchase, when she claimed a which he had brought that question be- portion of Lord Lanesborough's profore the House, and he hoped that the perty, which was bounded on the one hon. Gentleman's statement would have side by the portion of land so purchased, due effect upon the working classes, and on the other by a public street in


the town of Newtown Butler, and which said Catherine Reilly, still she was encontained 49 perches of ground, valuable titled to 49 perches of a property that for building purposes. This claim was, was never sold by the court, bought by of course, resisted, and eventually, as the claimant, or included in the quantity Mrs. Reilly threatened to take forcible specified by the said deed of conveyance. possession, an action for trespass was It appears, therefore, that no matter brought against her in the Court of what the quantity or nature of property Common Pleas. For the plaintiff the described in a deed of conveyance from above facts were stated. The Landed the Landed Estates Court, the map alone Estates Court proved that the defendant is to be considered the basis of the purpurchased and paid for only 16 acres, 3 chase; and the question was whether a roods, 29 perches, which were duly con- man's property could be conveyed to anveyed to her; that if the 49 perches now other, without his knowledge or consent, claimed were added to her purchase, she through the negligence or other default would become possessed of so much of some official ? A portion of the estate more land than she had actually bid for, of the Earl of Lanesborough had been paid for, or ever had in her possession; so conveyed to the purchaser of a portion that the said 49 perches formed part of the of a neighbouring estate—no portion of estate of the Earl of Lanesborough, and the estate of the Earl of Lanesborough had been in possession of the family was mentioned in the deed of conveysince the original grant of the estate, ance—and the only grounds on which and that by no act of the present or late Catherine Reilly claimed the portion of proprietor had it been alienated. The Lord Lanesborough's estate, included in defendant, on the other hand, claimed the map, was that it was so included. under the conveyance made to her by The Attorney General for Ireland would the Landed Estates Court, which, al- probably remember that when Ahab though it only specified that it had sold appropriated the land of Naboth he reand thereby conveyed to her 16 acres, ceived a very severe punishment. If 3 roods, and 29 perches, still went on to the conduct of Ahab was bad, the consay that “the portion coloured red, de- duct of the Incumbered Estates Court fined on a map attached to said convey was worse. Ahab gave notice to Naboth ance, was the land so conveyed.” A that he wanted the land, but the Indraughtsman attached to the Èngineers' cumbered Estates Court gave Lord Office caused the red line alluded to to Lanesborough no notice whatever. The include a portion of Lord Lanesborough's land, it was true, was of small extent and estate, containing 49 perches of ground, value, but the question was one of prinand thus made Mrs. Reilly's purchase ciple, and Parliament ought to interfere 17 acres and 38 perches, and not 16 to prevent so gross an injustice. acres, 3 roods, and 29 perches, as stated THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR in the deed. Chief Justice Monaghan IRELAND (Mr. SULLIVAN) said, he held the title good and nonsuited the would not allude to the Scriptural illusplaintiff. Upon this, reference was tration just introduced, but would remind made to the Landed Estates Court for the House that when the Incumbered redress, and, upon the re-hearing of the Estates Court was founded in Ireland case before Judge Lynch, he, in an some twenty years ago it was thought to elaborate judgment, called upon said be of vital importance that every title Catherine Reilly to re-convey to trustees given by it should be indefeasible. Ho the said portion of ground thus impro- was perfectly familiar with the facts of perly claimed by her, with a view to its the case, for it happened that he had restoration to its rightful owner, the been Counsel against Lord Lanesborough. Earl of Lanesborough. Against this de- The estate adjoining to Lord Lanescision Catherine Reilly appealed to the borough's property was sold in the InCourt of Chancery, who again reversed cumbered Êstates Court, and, through a the decree of the Landed Estates Court, mistake on the part of an officer of the and held that the line defined by the Ordnance Survey, the strip of land in red paint was a good conveyance, and question belonging to his Lordship, and that, although Catherine Reilly acknow- forming an acute angle projecting from ledged, and the body of the deed affirmed, the mass of the property, was included that only 16 acres, 3 roods, and 29 in the conveyance, though the map perches were sold and paid for by the served on Lord Lanesborough, as


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