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meet the views of the hon. Gentleman | the Government, believing they had no (Mr. Newdegate) that when he (the hon. chance. Then there was another matter Gentleman) addressed his Question to with regard to articles supplied to the him, he agreed at once to supply the in- Admiralty and also to other Departformation; but he very soon found that ments of the service. It was left to the the knowledge required was not within decision of a viewer whether the articles his official cognizance, but was entirely should be received or not, and he knew in the Treasury and the Public Works as a positive fact that in many instances Office in Ireland, which, as the hon. viewers had refused to receive articles Gentleman knew, was a department of without assigning any reason whatever. the Treasury, and not under the super- He thought they should be required to intendence of the Chief Secretary. The give some reason. The impression preReturn furnished to the House was cer- vailed that some douceur was necessary tainly, in the hon. Gentleman's point of to induce the viewer to accept the artiview, a scanty one. He was aware of cles. That such was the case some what the hon. Gentleman wanted, but years ago he knew for a fact. He knew the Treasury seemed to think that the of a case where articles were refused, Order of the House referred solely to the and the party who supplied them endeafabric; they conceived that the first word voured to obtain a reason for their "building" governed all the rest, and rejection, but no reason was given exthat all these words referred to the cept that they would not suit. They fabric; and that maintaining the College consulted him, and he suggested as they meant maintaining the fabric, and not had a relative in the House that he the professors and students. But now should put a Notice on the Paper to ask that they understood what his hon. the First Lord of the Admiralty a QuesFriend wanted, the Secretary of the tion on the subject. They did so, and Treasury informed him they would have in forty-eight hours the matter was setno difficulty in furnishing a supplemen- tled. He thought a great deal of diffitary Return, which would fully meet the culty might be avoided if the viewers hon. Gentleman's object. He would who refused to accept an article were promise that such a Return should be required to give some reason for their furnished with the least possible delay. refusal, and if there were some officer of standing and respectability to whom an appeal might be made.

MR. NEWDEGATE: Do I understand that the Government will lay the further Return on the table?

MR. AYRTON: If the hon. Member

will make a Motion in accordance with his intention, the Papers will be laid upon the table.

NAVY CONTRACTS.-OBSERVATIONS.

MR MUNTZ said, before the House went into Committee of Supply, he wished to call the attention of the Secretary of the Admiralty to rumours prevalent among commercial men that it was of no use offering to contract for Admiralty stores unless they had friends to support them. He had heard of cases of contracts entered into to supply articles which, if there had been a fair competition, might have been supplied for something less than half the amount. If this report was correct, the sooner that state of things was remedied the better; if it was not correct, some authoritative contradiction ought to be given to it. He knew, as a personal matter, that many houses of the first eminence refused to tender to supply

Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.

SUPPLY-NAVY ESTIMATES. SUPPLY-considered in Committee. (In the Committee.)

(1.) Motion made, and Question proposed,

granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Salaries of "That a sum, not exceeding £168,704, be the Officers and the Contingent Expenses of the Admiralty Office, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1870."

MR. CORRY said, in the early part of the present Session, the First Lord of the Admiralty, in answer to a Question, stated that the changes made in the Department over which he presided would result in the business of the Admiralty being conducted in the same manner as that of the other public Departments. When he read that answer for he was not in the House at the time-he said to

would be completely in his hands. His
subordination would be merely nomi-
nal, for the First Lord would have to
deal with him without the assistance
of anything like a Board, or a Commit-
tee, as his right hon. Friend had called
it. He himself once knew a First Lord

himself that if such was to be the result | Now, of all the executive officers in the
of the recent reforms in that Depart- Admiralty, the Controller was the most
ment, he could not look upon them important; but, under the plan of his
with approbation. He had always been right hon. Friend, he was no longer to
of opinion that, in consequence of special be subordinate to the Admiralty.
circumstances connected with naval ad- was to be one of its members. That was
ministration, it was impossible to conduct quite at variance with the views of Sir
the business of the Admiralty in the same James Graham. As a rule, the Control-
manner as that which was applicable in ler of the Navy was thoroughly conver-
the other Departments of the Government. sant with the details of the business in
He remembered that when the Admiralty which he was engaged; and when, as a
Committee was sitting, in 1860, a ques- Lord of the Admiralty, he made a pro-
tion was raised as to why the prac-posal to the civilian First Lord, who
tice of the Treasury and the Admiralty, would probably have a very superficial
two Boards constituted under nearly knowledge of the subject, the latter
similar patents, should be so different;
and he remarked on that occasion to a
Gentleman sitting beside him that the
reason was quite obvious. The Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer was thoroughly
acquainted with all the details of the
questions on which the Treasury had to
decide, and it would be absurd if the
opinion of any Junior Lord had a voice
in his decisions; but the First Lord of
the Admiralty had to depend in a great
measure on the advice and information
of the Junior Lords on most of the
details of his Department. It was not
going too far to say that the First Lord
could hardly be acquainted with one-
tenth of the details which had to be dealt
with in the Admiralty; and hitherto the
difficulty arising from that circumstance
had been overcome by the practice of
allowing the Junior Lords to take a direct
part in the conduct of the business of
the Department. The first observation
he had to make, with reference to his
right hon. Friend's changes, was that
they were entirely at variance with the
principle of the reforms introduced by
Sir James Graham in 1832, when he
abolished the Navy Board and the
Victualling Board. In answer to the
objection which had been urged that
the business would be so multifarious
that it could not be brought within the
compass of a single officer, Sir James
Graham said-

of the Admiralty who was a very able
man, but who used to say that nothing
could ever make him understand any-
thing about a ship. He did not refer to
his right hon. Friend the Member for
Droitwich (Sir John Pakington), but
generally the First Lord knew very little
about ships. If the Controller came to
his right hon. Friend the present First
Lord, and told him there was a ques-
tion as to whether one of the long iron-
clads should have five masts or three,
was that a matter which his right hon.
Friend would feel himself competent to
settle? Under the system which had
hitherto prevailed, that question, if it
had arisen would have been discussed
by competent naval officers, sitting at a
Board, and who could guide the First
Lord to a sound decision; but, under
the new arrangement, the Board would
have no right to interfere. It was quite
true that the First Lord might ask the
opinion of any of the Naval Lords; but
so he might ask the opinion of the
first naval officer he met in the street.
That was a very different thing from
obtaining opinions at a Board princi-
pally composed of experienced naval
"The difficulty would be obviated by a judi- officers, theoretically equal with the
cious distribution of labour. I propose to divide First Lord himself, and having a right
the whole of the Naval Service into five great
Departments, with an officer at the head of each, to express their views in the most
which officer should not be a Commissioner hold- unreserved manner. No one had a
ing his situation by patent, and possessing co- greater respect for the Controller of
ordinate authority, even with the Commissioners the Navy than he had; but he thought
of the Admiralty itself, as in the case at present, it very objectionable that the whole
but be appointed by warrants from the Board of
Admiralty, and retain his situation so long as he shipbuilding of the navy should be
discharges his duties properly."
in the hands of the Controller, who-

1

ever he might be. A Controller of the he understood was now printed for cirNavy, being a permanent officer, and, culation, each Junior Lord would be igconsequently, without recent naval expe- norant of what was being done by his rience, was apt to get into grooves, and Colleagues, or of the general policy those grooves might not happen to be in which prevailed outside his own partia direction leading to the best results. cular branch of the Department. He He did not well know what was the thought, also, that a system, which present title of the Controller. He be- placed the First Lord in communication lieved that in one part of the Estimates on departmental questions merely with he was styled "the Second Naval Lord." the superintending Lord, was very ob[Mr CHILDERS: He is Third Lord and jectionable. It was often of great adController.] Then he (Mr. Corry) vantage that the First Lord should have should like to know what his position the opinion of a Junior Lord, not only in really was? The Controller was a reference to the business specially confided servant of the Board. A Lord of the to him, but also in reference to other Admiralty was one of a Commission ap-questions of which he might have spepointed to execute the office of Lord cial professional or other knowledge. It High Admiral. He wanted to know might happen that a Naval Lord who whether the Controller was to be his had particular charge of one branch own master or his own servant. It ap- possessed more knowledge of a subject peared to him that the Controller's posi-not in his own department than perhaps tion would be an extremely anomalous one, and he could not approve of the change in this respect. It was not one which had originated with his right hon. Friend, for it had been strongly urged on him (Mr. Corry) by the Controller a year ago, but he had not thought it proper to agree to it. He had also reason to believe that it had been proposed to the Duke of Somerset, and that he had declined to entertain it. With respect to other changes, the new system introduced a confusion of responsibility altogether at variance with Sir James Graham's design. That right hon. Baronet increased the number of Junior Lords from four to five, for the express purpose of placing one at the head of each of the five great departments of the Admiralty. But now the number of Lords was reduced, and the business of three or four departments thrown on the First Naval Lord. In explaining this plan, he said

"This system gives the regular cognizance of each department to its own proper head, while the whole would be brought under the consideration of the general Board. There would thus be a just division of labour, an undivided control, and due responsibility on the one hand, and, on the other, that unity and simplicity which I hold to be the very essence and life of public business."

Under the new system there would be no such "unity and simplicity." The action of the several branches would be disjointed. Each Junior Lord would come separately to the First Lord and take his directions. If it were not for a préces of each day's proceedings, which

any other member of the Admiralty. When he himself was First Lord, his hon. and gallant Friend near him (Sir John Hay) superintended the Victualling and Store Departments; but as his hon. and gallant Friend, who had served on both the Gunnery and the Armourplate Commissions, was an authority on questions relating to armour-plating and the arming of ships, he had constantly referred to him, and had always attached the greatest value to his opinions on these subjects. He had been enabled to obtain the benefit of his assistance in that way, because under the old system every question was discussed at the Board, where, as a matter of course, his gallant Friend took part in its deliberations. But now, unless the First Lord went out of his way, he would be deprived of such assistance from a Colleague filling a post similar to that which had been held by his hon. and gallant Friend. He confessed that he thought one result of the changes would be to give the First Lord too great control over the Department generally. The last Lord High Admiral, himself a naval officer, had been required to resign from having acted in too much independence of his council, but under the new régime the First Lord-a civilian-was wholly independent of his council, the members of which were merely to submit questions for his consideration, and act under his instructions. It was quite true that a Board was a cumbrous engine. certainly was an impediment to the action of the First Lord. He had expe

It

rienced it himself; but it was possible | serve, protection of trade and fisheries, that a First Lord might, if left to him- appointment of commanders of ships-ofself, be inclined to go a little too fast, the-line and frigates, discipline, courtsand a drag chain was sometimes a useful martial and courts of inquiry, punishpiece of machinery. He thought, there- ments and returns, and signals. Under fore, that, in a Department like the Ad- the new arrangement, however, the First miralty, a substitution of personal com- Naval Lord had fifty-four matters, inmunication between the First Lord, who stead of fifteen, to look after. He had, would be supreme, and the Junior Lords, indeed, with the single exception of being for the old system of a Board where relieved from the superintendence of the all were theoretically equal was not a Controller's department, the functions wise measure. Hitherto the Controller hitherto discharged by the whole of the had been under the First Naval Lord, four Naval Lords thrown upon him. who had a general superintendance of Among other matters that he had to all matters in his department, and he attend to were coastguard, which alone could not understand how the business required the supervision of a single of the Department could be carried on head, naval coast volunteers, Royal under any other system. One of the Naval Reserve, appointments of comprincipal functions of the First Naval manders of ships-of-the-line and frigates, Lord was-subject, of course, to the appointments of lieutenants (exclusive authority of the First Lord-to direct of lieutenants in command), staff comthe movements of Her Majesty's ships. manders, navigating lieutenants, &c., That involved the selection of particular sub-lieutenants, midshipmen and naval ships for particular services, on which cadets, paymasters, clerks, medical offiwould depend what ships would be re-cers, and so on, and the superintendence quired to be repaired or fitted for com- of the Victualling department and Medimission. Hitherto this was arranged cal department was added to his other between the Controller and the First labours. He could not see how it was posNaval Lord-the superintending Lord of the Department. But at present, if he were to interfere, he might be told by the Controller to mind his own business, and that no instructions on the subject would be received except from the First Lord. Another grave objection he had to the alterations made was the enormous amount of business which was thrown upon the shoulders of the First Naval Lord of the Admiralty. The First Naval Lord of the Admiralty had always been looked upon as what was called the first Naval Adviser of the Crown, and it was most important that he should have sufficient time to spare from mere details of Office, to advise the First Lord on all questions of naval policy. His superintendence of the Controller's department was only of a general character, and did not occupy very much of his time. It appeared from a Return which showed the distribution of work among the Lords of the Admiralty, that under the old system the First Sea Lord had functions to discharge which were divided into fifteen heads. These were dockyards, as far as relates to Controller's department, distribution of the fleet, ships in commission with their fitting out, paying off, armaments, complements, and inspection, steam re

sible for any one man to get through the
work, except in the most perfunctory
manner. It was quite true that his right
hon. Friend had associated with the First
Naval Lord a Junior Naval Lord to
assist him. But he could not under-
stand why his right hon. Friend should
not have divided the departments be-
tween those two officers instead of throw-
ing the whole responsibility on the First
Naval Lord. The result was that there
would be a sort of divisum imperium, in
which they would in vain look for that
"just division of labour-the undivided
control-the due responsibility" to which
Sir James Graham attached so much im-
portance. He could not, moreover, see
the necessity for throwing all this work
on the First Naval Lord. It was true
that his right hon. Friend had reduced
the number of Naval Lords by one, but
he had called in Captain Willes as an
assistant. He believed that it would
not have been possible to make a better
selection. But it was hard to say what
duties would fall to the lot of Captain
Willes, who was to assist the First Naval
Lord in the coastguard and
"other
matters.' He appeared to be a sort of
"odd man" about the Admiralty. He
had not even a salary attached to his
appointment, but was borne as a super-

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numerary captain on the books of the chase of timber which had been proFisgard. He could not understand why posed by the Controller had been his right hon. Friend had not ap- avoided; and he feared that the merging pointed this excellent officer a Lord of of the two departments into one would the Admiralty, and assigned him proper be attended with anything but good refunctions. But his right hon. Friend sults. Another change which he greatly had made another appointment, that of deplored was the abolition of the office Lord Camperdown. He had been sur- of Engineer-in-Chief of the Navy-an prised during the Recess at hearing that office which had been held for many Lord Camperdown had been sent to re- years, and the duties of which had been port upon the state of the hospital at so ably performed by Mr. Lloyd. The Haslar, because all the necessary infor- vast sums which were expended from mation could have been obtained from year to year in the purchase of steam Sir Sydney Dacres, who had for many engines rendered it most important that years held the appointment of Superin-it should be filled by a gentleman of tendent of the Hospital. He could not first-rate abilities and unimpeachable at first understand why Lord Camper- honour, whose duty it was to advise the down had been selected for the service, Admiralty in respect of designs and tenbut, on inquiry, he had been informed ders sent in by the first engineering that he was a Lord in Waiting attached firms in the kingdom. It had always to the Admiralty as supernumerary Civil been a matter of surprise to him that Lord without pay, for he was not even gentlemen of sufficient scientific attainborne on the books of the Fisgard. Al-ments should be induced to enter into though, therefore, the number of the the service of the Admiralty at the small Junior Lords had ostensibly been re- salaries assigned to those respective offiduced, it had been increased for all ces, which were so far less than they practical purposes, so that there was no could obtain in the private trade. But necessity whatever for imposing such what had his right hon. Friend done? heavy burdens on the First Naval Lord. He had abolished the office of EngineerHe could assure his right hon. Friend in-Chief, and had appointed Mr. Murray, that it was the general opinion of per- who had for years entertained a reasonsons who were capable of forming a able expectation of receiving this apjudgment on the subject, that it was pointment as the reward of his long and impossible for any human being to able service, to a minor post, accomperform the duties which appeared to panied by less salary, and had assigned have been assigned to the First Naval him Mr. Lloyd's work, in addition to Lord; and he believed that his right that of the appointment he previously hon. Friend's experience before he had held, at a smaller remuneration. been long at the Admiralty would fully thought the policy adopted was at once confirm those opinions. The arrange- paltry and deplorable, for we could not ment might possibly be made to work in hope to obtain the services of the best time of peace, but he was satisfied that, men at inferior salaries. Indeed he had under the pressure of an emergency, it been informed that, for some years, first would break down, and that the Admi-class men had not been coming forward ralty would-for the first time, notwith- to enter the service in the engineering standing all that had been said against line. He understood that Mr. Reed, the it-prove unequal to the occasion. He would now refer to other matters, and he could not help expressing his belief that it was a great mistake to have abolished the office of Storekeeper General of the Navy-an office created by Sir James Graham, which had in times past exercised a very salutary check, and had led to the effecting of considerable sav-struction of ships than of engines. If ing in our expenditure. He could adduce instances in which, in consequence of representations made to the Board by the Storekeeper General, the necessity of incurring a large outlay in the pur

He

Chief Constructor of the Navy, was the present adviser-in-chief on marine engines. He knew Mr. Reed was a man of great ability, and if he had devoted himself to engineering he would, doubtless, have been one of the most able engineers in the country-but Mr. Reed had turned his attention hitherto more to the con

Mr. Reed were to give a lecture on the subject he would no doubt have a numerous audience; but they would be attracted chiefly by the desire to see how so eminent a man would acquit himself in

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